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Jonestown

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bjane





Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 118
Location: ontario
PostSat Dec 01, 2007 2:11 pm  Reply with quote  

Hi PI, Richard. I was born around the same time as Richard - 1953. Looking back to 1978, interest rates were skyrocketing and people were worried about it. Few homes were being sold for awhile around 78/79. There seemed to be a crisis in leadership after Nixon's exit from the Whitehouse in 1974. Looking back, I don't think Ford wanted the job and that's why he was literally falling down quite often. Carter was an intelligent and a good man, but not suited to the job. I remember thinking he should not have assured the Iranians that the U.S. had no intention of using military power to protect the hostages (why tip your hand in a poker game?) When Carter was elected, the headlines read, "Jimmy Who?" and around the same time in Canada we got a 'Joe Who' prime minister.

The Jonestown mass suicide was incomprehensible. It received media attention for awhile with the question asked, "Why would seemingly intelligent people allow themselves to be brainwashed by a sick but charismatic leader?" The question never seemed to have an answer and the issue was forgotten, but 'drinking Kool-Aid' became a new expression to mean giving your mind over to a cult. On reflection, I guess it made being a conformist to mainstream thought and behaviour more desirable.

I never became really disillusioned with the news media until after Sept. 11. I ran across a Mae Brussel site, which struck many chords in me (Mae, unfortunately, died in 1988). She was an amazing woman who became interested in the JFK and Lee Harvey Oswald assassinations - out of that grew remarkable research.

After I read some of Mae's material, I began to look at the world in a new light and it became clear that the official story of Sept. 11 was hogwash.

Speaking of Mae Brussel, here is an excerpt from a transcript of her broadcast about the Jonestown massacre, dated Dec. 1, 1978:
    It didn't surprise me that the next stage after the Zodiac killings in California and the Zebra killings and the SLA and the Strangler and the Manson Family massacres and all of these other bloody California syndromes that I've talked about for so long -- it didn't surprise me that out of that racism, out of that counterintelligence operation, and the meanness of the powers that be that run our State and Federal Offices, that such a thing can happen as happened in Guyana....
    ....I believe that there were about forty-five people in Georgetown who had lived in Jonestown who could have identified the bodies within 24 hours. They had the list of members there. Families could have flown down from San Francisco. Within eight hours they could have gone to New York and then down to Georgetown. It wasn't that difficult. It didn't have to cost $10 million to send them to Dover Airfield and have the bodies decayed and rotten and out in the sun. I think the reason they stalled was to make sure that it would be impossible to determine anything on them or to see their faces. That's why I think they were lying face down. Many of these children were wards of the court of California. They all came from San Francisco in the juvenile court and had been given to Jim Jones for experimentation -- and I'll back this up with research I had done in 1972 and 1973. Somebody would have recognized that their kids had been shipped down there.
http://www.maebrussell.com/Transcriptions/365.html
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perverted_introvert





Joined: 06 Jun 2006
Posts: 2006
Location: Chicago
Thanks PostSat Dec 01, 2007 5:28 pm  Reply with quote  

I appreciate you taking the time to comment and post that article. I am reading it now.
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shatoga





Joined: 23 Nov 2002
Posts: 1297
PostSun Dec 02, 2007 10:54 pm  Reply with quote  

No argument with any of your posts.
I'm a bit older it seems.

quote:
Originally posted by bjane
...Carter was an intelligent and a good man, but not suited to the job. I remember thinking he should not have assured the Iranians that the U.S. had no intention of using military power to protect the hostages (why tip your hand in a poker game?)

Carter was trying to keep Iran from knowing he had sent the military to rescue the hostages.
http://www.historyguy.com/iran-us_hostage_crisis.html

quote:
President Carter ordered a military rescue mission code-named "Operation Eagle Claw." This mission was a total and complete failure resulting in the deaths of eight U.S. military personnel. On April 24, 1980, units of the rescue force landed in the Iranian desert to refuel their aircraft before heading to Tehran. A confusing series of events took place at this refueling point, including failed equipment, and desert sandstorms which reduced visibility. As a result of these problems, the rescue was called off. During the retreat, one of the helicopters collided with a transport airplane, causing an explosion which killed eight members of the rescue mission. Several of the burned American bodies were later part of grisly street demonstrations protesting the abortive U.S. "invasion" of Iran. A second rescue attempt was planned but never implemented, largely due to equipment failure.

It was as if the US Military didn't want to rescue the hostages.

quote:
Privately, the Republicans had been informed, apparently by someone on active duty in the military or in US intelligence, that Carter planned a dramatic rescue attempt to free the hostages in Tehran, perhaps similar to the failed "Desert I" helicopter rescue attempt in which eight American servicemen died earlier in the year.

Retired Admiral Robert Garrick, serving in Reagan campaign headquarters, actually coordinated the setting up of a network of active and retired military supporters of Reagan at military bases in the US, Europe and Asia from which such rescue activity might be launched. Members of the volunteer network have admitted publicly that they planned to leak stories of any unusual activity to the media and thus force the Carter administration to give up the attempt.
.....................
It is here that the story of illegal dealings with Khomeini intermediaries by Reagan campaign officials begins. Bob Woodward and Walter Pincus of The Washington Post were the first to report that one such meeting took place in Washington, DC. It was held Oct. 2 at the L'Enfant Plaza Hotel. Reagan campaign participants were Richard Allen, subsequently the Reagan administration's first national security adviser; Marine Lt. Col. Robert (Bud) McFarlane, then an aide to Senator John Tower but subsequently also a Reagan administration national security adviser; and Allen aide Lawrence Silberman, who apparently set up the meeting and who presently is a judge on the Federal Court of Appeals in the national capital. A shadowy Iranian Jewish arms dealer, Hushang Lavie, says he was the Iranian principal. Allen says he was not, but that he has forgotten the name of the Iranian they met....
................

"Frontline" producers say that long before the meeting in the L'Enfant Plaza Hotel there were others, starting in early March of 1980, involving Reagan campaign manager William Casey, a former OSS operative and, subsequently, Reagan's first director of the Central Intelligence Agency. Casey's first meeting was in Washington, DC's Mayflower Hotel with two Iranian arms dealers, Cyrus and Jamshid Hashemi....

Jamshid Hashemi told Sick and the "Frontline" producers, however, that, after the Mayflower meeting, Casey and an unnamed US intelligence officer met Mehdi Karrubi, now speaker of the Iranian parliament, in Madrid in late July 1980, promising arms and to unfreeze Iranian assets if release of the hostages were delayed until after the election.
...
Barbara Honegger, then a Reagan campaign worker, said she was told by a fellow campaign aide that there would be no "October surprise" because "Dick's made a deal. " She assumes the reference was to Richard Allen, but it could also have been to Reagan pollster Richard Wirthlin, who was persistently warning that, in view of the dead heat in public opinion, the hostages could make the difference either way. She has subsequently included all of this in her book, October Surprise.
....
Bani Sadr is convinced that when his rivals in the Khomeini government got the promise of arms as well as cash from Reagan campaign officials, Khomeini lost all interest in his government's talks with the Carter administration


http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0591/9105011.htm


quote:
Originally posted by bjane
... When Carter was elected, the headlines read, "Jimmy Who?" ...

That was his "outsider" campaign motto.

quote:
Originally posted by bjane
...The Jonestown mass suicide was incomprehensible. It received media attention for awhile with the question asked, "Why would seemingly intelligent people allow themselves to be brainwashed by a sick but charismatic leader?" The question never seemed to have an answer

The media was asking the wrong question.
The question should always be: "What Really Happened?"


quote:
Originally posted by bjane
...I never became really disillusioned with the news media until after Sept. 11....


I was campaigning for Nixon in Phoenix AZ, when several Young Republicans burned Nixon's PHX AZ campaign HQ.
Sept 28, 1972
Next day, Nixon cited that act as evidence of "Liberal lawlessness"
Knowing it was burned on Nixon campaign orders, the office readied for the burning by being stocked with gas cans (for volunteers' cars) wooden stakes and yard signs.

Never believed a word from the US media or the RNC since that event.
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bjane





Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 118
Location: ontario
PostSun Dec 02, 2007 11:29 pm  Reply with quote  

    I was campaigning for Nixon in Phoenix AZ, when several Young Republicans burned Nixon's PHX AZ campaign HQ.
    Sept 28, 1972
    Next day, Nixon cited that act as evidence of "Liberal lawlessness"
    Knowing it was burned on Nixon campaign orders, the office readied for the burning by being stocked with gas cans (for volunteers' cars) wooden stakes and yard signs.

    Never believed a word from the US media or the RNC since that event.

I don't know what to say, shatoga. On the one hand, I'm sorry for your disillusionment - what a terrible experience for a young and, I'm assuming, earnest and innocent young person! On the other hand, it was certainly educational - hopefully it didn't make you bitter...
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perverted_introvert





Joined: 06 Jun 2006
Posts: 2006
Location: Chicago
Jonestown PostMon Dec 03, 2007 1:21 am  Reply with quote  

Let's stay on topic here, please.

What do you guys think of this:

http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/
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bjane





Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 118
Location: ontario
PostMon Dec 03, 2007 4:56 am  Reply with quote  

Hi PI. What do I think of the site? Well, it is interesting and brings home the reality that real people lost their lives in Jonestown. Reading among the Personal Reflections articles, I can see the hurt the survivors feel over the media's and the public's "contempt and distain" (as survivor Tim Carter put it) for the people of Jonestown.

Carter says that some people went to Jonestown because they believed in collectivism for political or for spiritual reasons, but that far fewer would have gone if they had known about what Jim Jones was really like (many didn't know what he was really like until after the massacre, when formerly secretive members began to talk).

Here is an excerpt from Tim Carter's personal reflection:
    On one of the Temple’s cross-country trips (I believe it was 1976), after a meeting in Philadelphia, Jim Jones had Mike Prokes and me drive him to Washington, D.C., where he checked into the Sheraton Hotel under an assumed name. His final instructions to us were to tell no one, and to forget the trip even happened. Jones was at the meeting in Philadelphia the following night (I have no idea how he returned from D.C.). Until months after Jonestown, I had forgotten about this ever occurring. So why was Jones in D.C.? Why did he check in under an assumed name? Most importantly, why Washington, D.C.? Were other trips made in the dead of night to Washington D.C.? If so, wouldn’t that certainly raise many disturbing questions?
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