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BEE
Joined: 13 Dec 2000
Posts: 23
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 Wed Dec 20, 2000 10:54 pm
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The point is that when spraying at 30,000 feet, there is no way to limit the area that the spray diffuses into. In order to achieve a specific concentration at ground level at a particular point, you would have to saturate the atmosphere. |
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Random
Joined: 11 Dec 2000
Posts: 25
Location: Bournemouth, UK |
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Thu Dec 21, 2000 11:45 pm
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Thanks Bee for your succinct post. I thought a full explanation was best, but obviously I was confusing people. |
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Thermit
Joined: 08 Jul 2000
Posts: 3136
Location: Texas |
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Fri Dec 22, 2000 9:30 pm
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Okay, I'll try again.
Random, hypothetical question: assuming you had a closed box of air, 1 square mile. How much liquid, we'll say water for simplicity, would it take to create an arbitrary proportion of 1 part per billion, assuming the air and water would mix evenly. |
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Thermit
Joined: 08 Jul 2000
Posts: 3136
Location: Texas |
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Wed Jan 03, 2001 11:02 pm
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Random? |
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BEE
Joined: 13 Dec 2000
Posts: 23
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Wed Jan 03, 2001 11:03 pm
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By my calculations, it's about 1100 gallons.
It has to be over 1 cubic mile to convert to parts per billion. This of course assumes the material is contained to that cubic mile and is not being disbursed by normal atmospheric conditions.
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Random
Joined: 11 Dec 2000
Posts: 25
Location: Bournemouth, UK |
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Wed Jan 03, 2001 11:14 pm
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Well this is tricky, Thermit, as previously I was making some fairly coarse if conservative assumptions (I believe my figures should be much higher). Anyway, I'll try to be a little more precise.
Working at sea level in ISA (International Standard Atmosphere) the air density is about 1.022 kg per cubic metre (kg/m^3). Air has a mean molecular mass around 28.8 - 80% nitrogen at 28, 20% oxygen at 32. There are about 4.1 billion m^3 in a cubic mile.
So to work out the mass in kg of a chemical to give 1 ppb (part per billion) at sea level in a cubic mile take the chemical's molecular mass, divide by 28.8 (ie work out how much heavier than air it is) and multiply by 1.022 then multiply by 4.09 billion and divide by a billion, or just multiply by 4.09.
This works because the number of molecules in a volume of gas depends only on the pressure and temperature, not on the size of the molecule.
So taking M as the molecular mass of the chemical,
M x 1.022 x 4.09 = M
28.8 . . . . . . . . . 6.890
Gives the mass in kg to fill a 1 mile cube at sea level at 1 ppb.
However, do you accept my suggestion that it would be impossible to localise the distribution?
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The truth is out there, but not in here
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Random on 01-03-2001] |
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BEE
Joined: 13 Dec 2000
Posts: 23
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Thu Jan 04, 2001 7:16 pm
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Note, the calculations for 1100 gallons assumed the chemical in question is water. |
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Deborah
Joined: 30 Jul 2000
Posts: 731
Location: East Coast |
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Thu Jan 04, 2001 8:01 pm
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>>>The point is that when spraying at 30,000 feet, there is no way to limit the area that the spray diffuses into. In order to achieve a specific concentration at ground level at a particular point, you would have to saturate the atmosphere.<<<
Why, thank you. That is *exactly* right.
Heh heh.
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Thermit
Joined: 08 Jul 2000
Posts: 3136
Location: Texas |
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Thu Jan 04, 2001 8:03 pm
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Thanks for the calculations Random and Bee. |
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Random
Joined: 11 Dec 2000
Posts: 25
Location: Bournemouth, UK |
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Mon Jan 08, 2001 11:39 pm
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Is there anyreason you wanted this calculation, Thermit? It is rather meaningless - to extrapolate to the larger part of the atmosphere you would need to know how the density of the air varies (I don't know that), and I think that it has been amply demonstrated here that any local concentration is meaningless.
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The truth is out there, but not in here |
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Thermit
Joined: 08 Jul 2000
Posts: 3136
Location: Texas |
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Wed Jan 10, 2001 4:33 am
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This is quite interesting to me and I'm just trying to get a rough feel for it. Need to think about it a while and do some research There are issues, indeed, with distribution localization, etc. Appreciate the effort, thanks! |
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Random
Joined: 11 Dec 2000
Posts: 25
Location: Bournemouth, UK |
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Thu Jan 11, 2001 9:16 pm
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I'm impressed by your open mindedness, Thermit. In my previous experience most people who subscribe to a conspiracy theory* are so entrenched in their beliefs that they do not listen to counter arguments and weigh up evidence evenly. I take back any disparaging comments I may (hope not!) have made.
RND
*remember I did say I thought some were right - I believe there are elements in power in the USA who do conspire against the interest of US citizens |
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Richard Burgeson
tagged
Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Posts: 613
Location: Erie,PA |
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Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:56 pm
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They just flooded Ohio and Crawford County. On a trip to visit my brother-in-law today the chemical rain was falling so thick breathing was affected. The wind shield was frosting. 30 feet above the ground the chemicals changed from white to gray like the smoke from an oil burning car. Has anyone else observed this in the same way? Don't dead stick me now tell me your stories about your experiences.
_________________
Thomas Jefferson. " Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't." |
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