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BigJoe
Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 1602
Location: A Remote/Well Fortified Complex |
A massive, national state of denial
 Tue Dec 24, 2002 12:43 am
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This is not the same Air Force that defended the world against Hitler during World War II. It has now become an outlaw organization that is turning on the very people that it has vowed to defend. It is now totally out of control, apparently now run by a bunch of madmen with an agenda of their own, and has taken on the very characteristics of the German dictator that they helped defeat sixty years ago. And the very people who fly these planes are just as guilty and cowardly as those who send them up to do the spraying, for they are attacking a population that isn't even aware of what is being done to them, let alone defend themselves against this massive violence. I now believe that most people actually DO know what's really going on overhead, but since this thing is so huge, so big and so scary, the average American cannot acknowledge to themselves the magnatude and horror of what their own air force is actually doing to them. But the facts are right there in the sky, glaring for all to see right in everyone's face, and for anybody to not notice these huge, billowing and expanding clouds has to be blind. We now have is a population that is in a state of total denial to a horror that is right in front of them, and that is just too big and scary for them to comprehend and admit to themselves is actually happening. And I'm fearing that these fools and their destructive jets have pushed the population past the point where the mainstream media can now report to them what is actually happening, as it's quite probable that a mass panic would take place, once the true nature of what the United States air force is doing, right here in America is made public. It's a very bizarre and unstable situation, and I believe that the public is just on the verge of bringing this nightmare to their conscious awareness. But what amazes me the most is the total stupidity and ignorance of our military for bringing our American society to this sorry state of one massive group psychosis. For a short sighted military objective that is questionable at best, they are placing our entire society in danger. When the general public finally wakes up to this huge insanity, there is going to be hell to pay by those responsible.
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Catnip57
Joined: 22 Apr 2001
Posts: 596
Location: Central Washington |
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Tue Dec 24, 2002 1:02 am
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quote: But what amazes me the most is the total stupidity and ignorance of our military for bringing our American society to this sorry state of one massive group psychosis.
This statement made me think of some of the things I read in the book "Angels Don't Play This Haarp" by Nich Begich and Jeane Manning. There's some very scary stuff in there about Haarp and the possible uses of mind control... the potential does exist. I'm not saying that's actually what they're doing, but the present situation makes one wonder. |
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PacerLJ35
Joined: 18 Apr 2002
Posts: 456
Location: Millbrook, AL, USA |
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Tue Dec 24, 2002 1:35 am
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I'm one of those "outlaw" pilots in the USAF. I spend every day at work either flying missions or scheduling airplanes. Over the years of flying for the military, I have never heard the term "chemtrail" or anything resembling chemtrails mentioned in any mission brief, nor even in any day-to-day conversation. The only place I hear about chemtrails is on the internet.
Nearly every other military pilot I talk to has never heard the term "chemtrail" either. The ones that have I have met through the "debunker" board, and they number fewer than 2-3.
And yet you want your readers to believe that Air Force officers and Air Force pilots are knowingly spraying some yet-to-be-found-out substance on the citizens below...citizens, I might add, that include their parents, siblings, spouses, children and friends.
Time and time again, I see chemtrail promoters paint Air Force pilots as if they belong to some kind of Foreign Legion, that they aren't part of the everyday populace, and that they somehow wouldn't be affected by any mass poisoning of America's people.
Yet they fail to realize that USAF pilots come from the population as a whole, and we are still very much a part of the civilian population. We own houses in normal neighborhoods, we drive the same kinds of cars as everyone else, we attend church with civilians, we eat out at resaurants with everyone else, and we take our dogs for walks in public parks.
Take me for example. I'm a USAF pilot...a so-called mercenary, murderer, whatever the chemtrail promoters feel to use to describe me. I'm talked about as if I live on a military base, in military barracks, with little or no contact to the outside world.
Yet in reality I live in a 4 bedroom house in a subdivision in Millbrook, Alabama. I own a Mitsubishi Galant, and my wife (yes, I'm married) drives an Isuzu Rodeo. We have one child (a son). We have two cats, and two aquariums full of fish. I spend saturdays mowing the lawn, unless I'm flying a mission. Both my next door neighbors are civilians, not affiliated to the military. Both shake my hand in GRATITUDE for my service to the country, and one is the son-in-law of a retired Air Force sergeant.
When I'm not flying missions or working in the scheduling department, my wife and I are going out to eat, going shopping at the mall, or spending time with our son.
The very idea that you attempt to insinuate that I spray some poison on my neighbors and my family turns my stomach, and those friends of mine that have visited these chemtrail sites at my request are also equally disgusted by the one-sided, slanderous and misguided accusations made by some of you.
But I am glad that most Americans aren't foolish enough to bite off on pseudo-science, false claims and half-truths that are the hallmarks of the chemtrail conspiracy theory. |
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BigJoe
Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 1602
Location: A Remote/Well Fortified Complex |
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Tue Dec 24, 2002 2:17 am
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I have two things that I always say to people who "deny" that chemtrail exist.
1. Keep a pair of binoculars handy whenever you're outside. The next time you are under a chem-attack and one of those unmarked, white air force jets goes directly overhead spewing out a huge trail that stretches from horizon to horizon and is expanding into a huge cloud, view it with the binocs. I think that what you see under magnification will turn you into a believer.
2. Also, you have to keep a very close eye on the latest satellite images. Chemtrails stand out like a sore thumb on the satellite pics. Take a close look especially at the Atlantic and Pacific oceans right off the coasts and also in the Gulf of Mexico. They're really going to town in those areas, especially right off of the west coast. Just read the last couple of posts! And then look at what's going on inland, right over you, me, your children and loved ones, and mine, and everyone elses. It's scary but it's true, I hate to tell you. And keep looking at these satellite images as they're updated over a period of days, weeks and months. I think you might view things differently.
And I don't mean this to offend you, but it's the only way that I can say this. Until you really go out "into the field" and spend some time observing these attacks on a regular basis and as I mentioned in the last two points, I really can't take you or anybody else who denys chemtrails seriously. And yes, I totally agree with you. We're ALL in this together! We're all in the same boat and we're all being put at great risk! Good point!!!
P.S. You might also want to view some of the many excellent photos on this website, and on the countless other chemtrail websites on the internet. Photos don't lie! And I would be very curious as to what your comments are about all of these photos of chemtrails that people are now sending in from all over the world. Maybe all of these photos are just an illusion? |
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Mech
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 8237
Location: THE 4th REICH USA |
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Tue Dec 24, 2002 2:55 am
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Yeah...an illusion. Kind of like all of those fillaments that were dropping all over Galveston Texas the other day that even the National Weather Service refused to comment on even though the media was concerned...
Folks...the white jumbo aircraft DO exist. I was in the Military. Most personnel couldn't get anywhere near them. Usually there was a detail of armed guards around them. Pacer will tell you that they are AWACS or JOINT STARS type aircraft or "flying test beds". I tend to think otherwise.
[Edited 2 times, lastly by Mech on 03-09-2004] |
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PacerLJ35
Joined: 18 Apr 2002
Posts: 456
Location: Millbrook, AL, USA |
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Tue Dec 24, 2002 4:58 am
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"Until you really go out 'into the field' and spend some time observing these attacks on a regular basis and as I mentioned in the last two points, I really can't take you or anybody else who denys chemtrails seriously"
Are you kidding me? So actually flying mere hundreds of feet under or over (and through) these large persistent contrails *isn't* going out "into the field"? And sitting on your porch with low power binocs *is*?
I ply the airways daily, at all altitudes from the ground up to FL450 (45,000 feet). I'm quite familiar with the contrails you speak of, and I've seen the photos on this site and many others, and they look just like the same contrails coming from the Delta 737, American 757, or even the executive Gulfstream V flying at 37,000 feet.
Some of their contrails are thin and don't last long. Others are very billowy and last a very long time. My aircraft has left large contrails behind as well....I could see our contrail shadow on the clouds below us.
"Pacer will tell you that they are AWACS or JOINT STARS type aircraft or 'flying test beds'. "
AWACS and JSTARS aircraft are obvious. The E-3 (AWACS) has a huge rotating radome on the fuselage. The E-8 (JSTARS) has a long underslung pod under the fuselage for the ground mapping array.
There are only a few other white, relatively unmarked aircraft in the inventory. One is the E-4, which is a converted 747 used as NAOC (National Airborne Operations Center). There are only a handful and they are all at Offutt AFB in Nebraska. The USAF operated two TC-18s for aircrew training on the AWACS, but both of them are now in storage at Will Rogers World Airport, and aren't in flyable condition. Edwards AFB has a couple EC-18s used in the ARIA mission. Edwards also operates the sole EC-135C "Speckled Trout", and it's all white with a silver stripe. It's used for test purposes and to transport the Air Force Chief of Staff. I got to take a peek at it on the ramp at Andrews. Another all-white airplane is the EC-137D used by USCENTCOM at MacDill AFB in Florida. We got to park right next to it last Tuesday and got a good look at it..nothing secret squirrel about it either.
The "flying testbed" aircraft are very few in number. There are two operated by a contractor in Texas, and are former WC-135B models, now used to test navigation equipment. Both are parked on the civilian ramp, so I imagine security isn't too big of a deal. There is one NKC-135 used at Edwards for test purposes.
As for the aircraft I don't know much about, there is one unmarked aircraft at Andrews, a C-22B (Boeing 727), and it's parked on the Air National Guard ramp. However, the fact that it doesn't have full up markings doesn't mean much....nearly every Army National Guard C-12 I've flown on is painted plain white with a single tail number, that's it.
So, after having been to nearly every operating Air Force base in the US (again, I scratch my head wondering how you feel I haven't been out "in the field"), I've seen maybe fewer than a dozen unmarked white airplanes. And half of those they don't care if you walk around them or not...no armed guards or anything. The other half, I never got close enough to them to find out.
So unless your chemtrail fleet consists of a dozen old Boeing 707s, I don't see how this white "unmarked airplane" thing would work. As for all the photos of something "white and unmarked" spraying you....think about it, you're taking a photo of an airplane, of which 90% of them have a white paint coat with a few colorful smaller markings, and you're taking this photo 6-8 miles away at the closest (assuming you're directly under it), and just because you can't see the tail flash or the thin striping, you claim it's "unmarked".
I don't know anyone who could see markings from 6+ miles away, but you're claiming you should be able to. Here's an experiment....next time you're driving on a pretty long stretch of highway in Texas (where it's flat with no trees), take out your zoom lens and see if you can snap a picture of one of those big roadside advertisements (you know, on the big bulletin thingys) 6 miles or more down the road....then tell me if you can read the writing on it, or if it just looks like a big blob. |
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BigJoe
Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 1602
Location: A Remote/Well Fortified Complex |
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Tue Dec 24, 2002 6:07 am
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I'm not going to nit-pick or count rivits over this. All I can suggest to you is to go outside (out in the field), OPEN YOUR EYES and look up at the sky. And a pair of good binoculars might help too.
Please don't take this personally, but until ALL of these important questions are answered and we get some REAL facts about what's really going on up there, and not a lot of empty, divisive words, all of your technical data means absolutely nothing to me... just a lot of empty words and I really can't take you, or any other debunker seriously on any of this. You're just one more person who doesn't want to acknowledge to themselves what's really going on in the sky right above their head! I firmly believe that you're in in a state of total denial over this whole issue like so many other people who won't admit to themselves that they are really frightened, and can't really face the scary truth of the situation.
And by the way... what's the scoop behind all of the chemtrail photos on this website and all the others? You and your friend still haven't answered that question yet. I'd really be curious as to what you think about them. Are they real or fake? If chemtrails aren't real, how do you explain all of these thousands of photos coming in from all over the world? I'm quite convincead that they are very real. I wish that they weren't, and I wish that I could share your innocent belief that the chemtrails didn't exist. It would be nice to live in that fantasy. But it's very important that as concerned American citizens we face the truth of this situation, and not bury our heads in the sand. So, unless you can provide us all with something new and insightful on this issue, I think you're just wasting your time with a lot of empty words. I'm sorry to have to put it this way to you, but I'm just so sick and tired of people like you $#@#! and being "less than honest" with me on this issue. I just wish that people could be more honest with each other about all of this.
Have a really merry Christmas and may peace and many happy blessings be with you. |
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halva
Joined: 04 Apr 2003
Posts: 511
Location: Greece |
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Tue Dec 24, 2002 6:33 am
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I saw an unmarked plane flying over Mt. Pendeli outside Athens, Greece a couple of days ago. Aerosol operations were going on at the time. The unmarked plane was not spraying and had descended to a lower altitude, perhaps preparatory to landing. I don't believe the airforce pilot's story about these being normal contrails and I wonder about his sincerity. For a start these aircraft are not flying on the routes of normal air traffic. What do you say in response to this fact? |
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theseeker
Joined: 25 Jul 2000
Posts: 3403
Location: Damnit...I'm a doctor jim |
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Tue Dec 24, 2002 6:56 am
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well I certainly don't know anything about or what white jets might do in the air force, but pacer I seen 2 white ones parked at tinker about a month or 2 ago...in front of 4 or 5 b-1's...anyone can see these from the interstate passing by...when I lived in OKC I used to park over there across the street and watch the AWAC's and B-52's take-off and land...didn't see the white jets or b-1's on my way by this last time...
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T/S |
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PacerLJ35
Joined: 18 Apr 2002
Posts: 456
Location: Millbrook, AL, USA |
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Tue Dec 24, 2002 8:05 am
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Ok, several points to discuss here:
"All I can suggest to you is to go outside (out in the field), OPEN YOUR EYES and look up at the sky"
Alright, I fly in the sky. Is that ok?
"And a pair of good binoculars might help too"
I don't need them because I literally fly through the very same contrails you want me to look at.
"...all of your technical data means absolutely nothing to me... just a lot of empty words and I really can't take you, or any other debunker seriously on any of this"
Well, simply naming off some aircraft types is hardly "technical data", but whatever. Anyhoo, it's not just words. That's what you and alot of other chemtrail believers are missing....all that "techno-jargon" isn't just a bunch of fluff, it's really information. If you wish to discard it because it's too hard to understand, then that's your loss. But don't stand there saying that because you can't figure it out, the information is therefore meaningless. That's a cop-out if I've ever seen one.
"You're just one more person who doesn't want to acknowledge to themselves what's really going on in the sky right above their head!"
Hello there...remember me? I'm a pilot, I'm not someone who's ignorant of events going on in the sky...I work up there. While you peer through your binocs at tiny little blips that are airplanes, I see them so close I can read what airline they belong to. I listen to (and talk on) the various ATC frequencies, and interact with the traffic flow. I can see who's around me within 40 miles using my TCAS (Traffic Collision Avoidance System) display. I have dozens of friends who fly for other military units or civilian airlines.
As such, I find it pretty silly that you feel you're so much more attuned to what's going on "up there" because you get to stand in a field with binocs, but somehow I'm out of touch. You're at least a good 6 miles away from the action, with no radio, and no idea who's up there or where they are going. And you don't have the faintest idea of how the air traffic system operates because all that "technical data" like flight plans, jet routes, and GPS navigation is over your head and therefore irrelevant. It's just totally bizarre to me how you come up with such a notion.
"I firmly believe that you're in in a state of total denial over this whole issue like so many other people who won't admit to themselves that they are really frightened, and can't really face the scary truth of the situation."
Believe what you may, but you hardly can qualify that statement because you really have no idea WHAT is going through my head. Denial over what? That there are lots of airplanes leaving contrails? Again, my experience (almost 7 years of flying) *convinces* me otherwise. I've never once felt that there was a large-scale "chemtrail" operation. This whole issue is so entirely silly.
"what's the scoop behind all of the chemtrail photos on this website and all the others? You and your friend still haven't answered that question yet. I'd really be curious as to what you think about them. Are they real or fake? If chemtrails aren't real, how do you explain all of these thousands of photos coming in from all over the world? I'm quite convincead that they are very real. "
Silver orbs aside, most of the contrail (ahem, chemtrail) photos are real, in the sense that they haven't been doctored. However, they look just like the thousands of contrails I see while flying on a daily basis. And I believe I answered your question earlier by stating that none of the photos on any of the websites have ever raised an eyebrow. Some of the captions have, however...many of the comments are beyond absurdity.
"...but I'm just so sick and tired of people like you $#@#! and being 'less than honest' with me on this issue"
Another prime example of chemtrail believer logic. Just because I say I don't believe in chemtrails, and that my experience flying jet aircraft provides the basis for this professional opinion, you then attempt to say I'm somehow lying to you. Sorry, but I've got better things to do than lie to some internet character. I could care less if you agree with me or not, after all, *I'm* not the one standing in a field with binocs trying to hunt down contrail-creating jet aircraft.
On to others....halva:
"For a start these aircraft are not flying on the routes of normal air traffic. What do you say in response to this fact?"
Air traffic routes aren't the only places that aircraft can fly. Routes were originally created to keep air traffic seperated and to help ease navigation. They are still used, but not in the capacity they had been prior to the widespread use of radar and GPS.
Most air traffic controllers in the US and Canada, as well as Europe, can use radar to provide an aircraft with "vectors". In other words, they can tell a jet to fly in a certain direction, and monitor that aircraft's progress using radar. GPS and RNAV (aRea NAVigation) technologies allow aircraft to fly off established routes as well, shortening distances.
There are also routes that you may not be aware of. Everyone is probably somewhat aware of jet routes....the paths that aircraft can follow enroute from one place to another. But harder routes to find include STARs (Standard Terminal ARrivals) and SIDs (Standard Instrument Departures). These aren't published on a standard navigation chart, but are used by aircraft departing and arriving at busy airports.
Also, aircraft arriving to airfields that don't have STARs or SIDs don't use any route...they maneuver (with ATC approval) however they see fit to align with the landing runway.
In my experience as a pilot, I fly published routes about half the time. The other half, I usually fly point-to-point (ie, direct between two navigation waypoints), or direct to a destination. Published routes are useful when traffic density is high...that is, when there are alot of other aircraft up there, and controllers need some element of predictability. When traffic is light, they'll start clearing traffic off the routes to more direct routing.
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PacerLJ35
Joined: 18 Apr 2002
Posts: 456
Location: Millbrook, AL, USA |
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Tue Dec 24, 2002 8:15 am
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"but pacer I seen 2 white ones parked at tinker about a month or 2 ago"
I go to Tinker all the time...since it's right in the middle of the US, it's perfect for fuel stops.
Tinker is home to the Oklahoma City Air Logistics Center. Among the things they do, they serve as a depot-level maintenance facility for bombers (hence the B-1s you saw) and all the 707/720 airframes.
The E-3, E-8, EC-18, KC-135, RC-135 and other types all look the same, but in reality they aren't. The E-3/E-8/EC-18s are all converted Boeing 707 airliners. The C-135 series are all based off the Boeing 720, which is similar to the Boeing 707, but is actually very slightly narrower and smaller. The 720 is a development of the original Dash 80, which was the prototype to the 707/720 series.
Anyways, it's not uncommon to see a few 707/720 airframes sitting outside, sans paint jobs. They are either in their primer coat (very light yellow, looks white) or they have received their initial white paint coat before receiving their service paint color.
There are two hangars full of stripped white 707/720 aircraft, one on each side of the base opertions building. In fact, to get to the bathroom, you have to walk through the hangar around some of these aircraft.
In any case, I've been to Tinker a dozen times now, and I haven't seen anything resembling fleets of unmarked "sprayplanes" anywhere on the airfield. If you looked closely at the aircraft you saw, you'd probably notice they were missing things like engines, flaps, or other major components. They take that stuff off and do seperate overhauls on those parts. I saw one up there that had it's entire tail section removed aft of the wing. |
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halva
Joined: 04 Apr 2003
Posts: 511
Location: Greece |
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Tue Dec 24, 2002 8:32 am
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From Mount Pendeli I saw planes flying continually back and forth across Athens from east to west and west to east with no mission comprehensible to me other than to discharge whatever they had coming out of their exhausts on the territory below. And it is simply untrue that other civilian passenger jets leave trails that are so visible.
Also, the argument that "we couldn't be doing this because we and our loved ones would ourselves be the victims" might have had a plausibility to it before the use by US and NATO forces of depleted uranium in artillery shells, thus endangering the lives of military and civilian personnel on their own side who must operate in the area afterwards. Appeals to common sense aren't enough any more to make us refute the evidence of our senses.
I can see that something unprecedented is happening over the city where I live, and I hope it is going to be possible for enough citizens to get themselves organized so that we can demand an explanation from the Greek government what these planes are supposed to be doing.
As I understand it, our pilot is saying that what is going on in the sky is just normal military aviation. Why are planes flying back and forth over Athens at a high altitude? They are not on their way to another place. That is obvious. |
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theseeker
Joined: 25 Jul 2000
Posts: 3403
Location: Damnit...I'm a doctor jim |
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Tue Dec 24, 2002 9:05 am
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well that was the first time I ever seen any...like to have choked when I did because I never seen a white plane...and you are obviously aware of the chemtrails "stigma" involved with white unmarked jets...lol...
if you know where the b-1's are then you know where these were...and from that distance an N# would have been impossible to see...and the fact your doing about sixty five on the road at the time...
I used to spend a lot of time there on the golf course....first time I played there got my wallet cleaned by a crochety old retired colonel...much like dan....took about 4 holes to get the feel of the course (water every 230 to 260 yards)..shot 4 under the rest of the way and still got stomped....there's a prank played on first time guests at tinker..."if your ball goes in the creek leave it there cause the water will eat your skin off"...a joke naturally...but still that didn't stop me from fishing a 2.85 cent titlest from the creek...
priorities
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halva
Joined: 04 Apr 2003
Posts: 511
Location: Greece |
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Tue Dec 24, 2002 2:24 pm
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On the subject of denial: I am finding in the first feedback I am getting that there is a suggestion I should be doing my homework before opening my mouth. Check with the authorities and have authoritative data so that I can back up anything I say with hard information.
It seems to me that logically this isn't the first step. The first step is agreement that what one is sees in the sky is abnormal. But that suggestion provokes aggressive reactions. Whilever these persist, the authoritative data are beside the point.
Do you remember those psychological experiments where they prime a group of subjects to say things in contradiction to reality and find that nearly everyone introduced into this experimental environment is very reluctant to go against unanimous group "perceptions", even when they are absolutely contradicted by the evidence of the senses.
The morality of such psychological experiments always seemed dubious to me, socially disintegrative. I was suspicious of the motivations of people who want to carry out experiments to show that people are sheep. And I suspect that people of the kind who do such experiments or talk about them breathlessly as if they themselves would be wiser than those "sheep" in a comparable situation are going to be the last to draw realistic conclusions from the evidence of their senses in this question of aerosol spraying.
Having said that, I await futher enlightenment from Pacer, the professional in our midst. |
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jsmith
Joined: 26 Dec 2002
Posts: 1
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Thu Dec 26, 2002 3:02 pm
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I'm new here but I feel I must reply. I found this site by searching for kc135 hydraulics. I've been a USAF maintainer for 18 years. I've worked on the kc135 for over ten years. I saw the entry on the home page about MPRS (Multi Point Refueling System) pods on the tanker being used to spray chemicals and I know this is not possible.
The system is simply incapable of spraying anything. Even fuel cannot be dumped from the pods in an in-flight emergency (IFE) to lighten the aircraft's gross landing weight.
Although the concept of mind altering liquid being sprayed from aircraft is interesting, one is left to assume that the site is populated by ignorant theorists when easily verifiable facts are ignored. |
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