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WiseQuakker
Joined: 21 Aug 2000
Posts: 141
Location: Wherever I happen to be at the time |
Analyze this...
 Wed Mar 20, 2002 12:02 pm
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Seriously... What’s wrong in these pictures...??? Or what’s right...???
at 600 mm
at 140 mm
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“When walking amongst predators, never lose awareness of your surroundings. By itself, science tells us what should be. Only tempered with clinical observation and common sense, does it tell us what really is......”
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roman
Joined: 20 Sep 2000
Posts: 407
Location: Marietta Ohio USA |
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Wed Mar 20, 2002 12:38 pm
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The lights inside of the smaller trail.I have never seen this one any ideas? roman... |
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David Morton
Joined: 21 Oct 2001
Posts: 134
Location: underground |
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Wed Mar 20, 2002 3:37 pm
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I, too, have never seen anything like this first one. Nothing like this ever happens here in Jersey.
Dave
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plutobeach
Joined: 04 May 2001
Posts: 17
Location: South FL |
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Wed Mar 20, 2002 3:42 pm
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What do I see?
It would appear to be a contrail. Not close enough of the aircraft to refute the claims of spraying. The trail looks like a typical contrail though.
The uneveness is a good visual example of intermittent air turbulence. The well defined inner thin part of the trail is a great example of the wingtip vortices. Not sure if your lens was good enough to see it but they spin very rapidly. Why one vortice? Don't know, it might be from the bumps. Sometimes you see two, one or none in a contrail. I cruised 1000 feet below the exact type of trail before and have gotten a great look at scenes like this before.
Hitting one of these can be unpleasant.
If its your home location and the time stamp is accurate Quakker, my guess is that it is a widebody 747/777/MD11 type heading east thru southeast consistent with schedule flights from Asia to the US.
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Dan Rockwell
Joined: 10 Dec 2001
Posts: 1988
Location: Stamford, CT, USA |
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Wed Mar 20, 2002 4:54 pm
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WiseQuakker, I've taken hundreds of pictures of trails before and I must admit that that is one strange looking trail. |
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KrissaTMC2
Joined: 05 Feb 2002
Posts: 472
Location: Greenwich, CT, USA |
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Thu Mar 21, 2002 12:30 am
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I took a good look at the pictures and even tried to get a better look at the jet that was making the trail, but all I saw was what looked like an orb. It's really an unusual trail. |
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Deb
Joined: 04 Oct 2001
Posts: 163
Location: Plainfield, Indiana USA |
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Thu Mar 21, 2002 3:51 am
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WQ, was the photo taken in Mt. Vernon? And what direction was the plane flying?
I've seen similar here at low altitude (28000-30000) at temp -40C.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Deb on 03-20-2002] |
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KnewEyes
Joined: 23 Apr 2001
Posts: 667
Location: under those cloud-like things |
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Thu Mar 21, 2002 4:40 am
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Yes Krissa, it does look like an Orb doesn't it.
Maybe it's a double sprayer with one side clogged up with polymer fibers, and not spritzing it out correctly.
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WiseQuakker
Joined: 21 Aug 2000
Posts: 141
Location: Wherever I happen to be at the time |
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Thu Mar 21, 2002 8:24 am
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Not sure if your lens was good enough to see it but they spin very rapidly.
Pluto — I take that to mean you’re referring to the magnification I was using and not the actual quality of the camera or lenses themselves. My camera is a Minolta STsi Maxxum. The lens combo I use for my long-range shots is a Quantaray 70-300mm 1:4-5.6, coupled with a Quantaray 2X tele-converter. The camera’s internal clock is calibrated with WWV and I check it at least once a month. It keeps pretty good time, actually.
How does a wing-tip vortex remain so tightly wound and stay that visible so far behind the aircraft? How does a vortex become part of a contrail and continue so neatly within its confines? In the image below, the smoke trails from the wing tips of this 747 are taking very different trajectories from those being directed more in a downward path by engine exhaust.
In fact, at cruising velocity, the tips of an airliner’s wings are lifted significantly higher, with respect to where its engines are cutting through the sky. This is especially true for the two-engine variety. I have a series of photos in my collection that clearly show this.
http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/gallery/photo/B-747/Small/ECN-4242.jpg
_____________________________
“When walking amongst predators, never lose awareness of your surroundings. By itself, science tells us what should be. Only tempered with clinical observation and common sense, does it tell us what really is......”
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WiseQuakker
Joined: 21 Aug 2000
Posts: 141
Location: Wherever I happen to be at the time |
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Thu Mar 21, 2002 12:27 pm
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Here’s a rescanned enlargement of what appeared to resemble an orb in the 140mm image. For this one, I did adjust the shadow/highlight parameters and used some edge enhancement. The sun angle was extremely poor and kept the airplane, itself, from showing up against the sky background. In addition, the resolution of the first scan didn’t do justice to the original photographic print. What I see is that this trail is being left by a four engine jet...
_____________________________
“When walking amongst predators, never lose awareness of your surroundings. By itself, science tells us what should be. Only tempered with clinical observation and common sense, does it tell us what really is......”
[Edited 2 times, lastly by WiseQuakker on 03-21-2002] |
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WiseQuakker
Joined: 21 Aug 2000
Posts: 141
Location: Wherever I happen to be at the time |
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Fri Mar 22, 2002 10:13 am
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This was brought up at the Clifford Carnicom board by PacerLJ35:
it appears to me that the contrail drifted into the aircraft's wake. The vortice in the trail isn't a result of an actual wing tip vortice condensation, nor the result of the contrail. Rather, the tip vortices spin for many minutes after an aircraft passes, and often without the visually seen condensation. this is called the 'wake'. Wake turbulence is also affected by the wind and can shift and sink, but at a different rate than the contrail. When the vortice reacts with the contrail (which is also moving) it creates a visually noticeable vortice trail. The reason why there's only one is most likely due to the fact that the other vortice is outside the contrail.
It's actually very common to see entire contrails wrapping around itself due to the aircraft's wake. I've seen very good photos of jets flying through the tops of clouds, and they form very neat looking swirls behind it from the wake vortices.
Then I had two questions after that:
If the wake and the contrail are moving at different rates, relative to each other, then would not the visible vortex be seen to traverse the contrail rather than tightly hug one edge? Also, doesn’t the spinning vortex tend to expand, increase in diameter, as it ages...???
What about all this...??? What do others see as the consequences of when wake meets contrail...???
_____________________________
“When walking amongst predators, never lose awareness of your surroundings. By itself, science tells us what should be. Only tempered with clinical observation and common sense, does it tell us what really is......”
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theseeker
Joined: 25 Jul 2000
Posts: 3403
Location: Damnit...I'm a doctor jim |
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Fri Mar 22, 2002 10:48 am
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hey lardass, sounds plausible to me...but wait...tell him to have a go at this one...
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T/S |
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WiseQuakker
Joined: 21 Aug 2000
Posts: 141
Location: Wherever I happen to be at the time |
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Sat Mar 23, 2002 8:12 am
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Looks like a scene out of “Ghost Busters” to me, Seeker. I know the person who made this photograph, too. Like all of mine, it is backed up by color negative film.
Okay... Who knows anything about this one and when wakes and contrails meet...??? |
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theseeker
Joined: 25 Jul 2000
Posts: 3403
Location: Damnit...I'm a doctor jim |
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Sat Mar 23, 2002 9:38 am
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seems this pacer dude had some answers, about specificly unusual trails, what happened quak ? did he get banned...nah...carny wouldn't do that would he...ban professional insight ?....nah...(rolling eyes)
I know where the photo originates and it was a topic here a year or so ago...sky chromosomes...I believe....
I don't see a conspiracy revolving around this photo, but I have seen these before and they don't have the attribute of commercial air traffic associated with them...nor do they form in even the most liberal of RH measuring statistics (ADDS)...(my observation)...
considering this particular trail has never been delt with seriously by chemsters or debunking entities...to my knowledge...
I find it interesting...
btw, did you see the talking cat ?
Talking Cat
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E. Coli
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 9
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Sun Mar 24, 2002 1:05 am
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In my experience as an airline pilot, I've seen many contrails similar to this. The spotty nature of the contrail leads me to beleive that the humidity is only marginally high enough to sustain a weak contrail, and as for the shape, they are consistent with what it looks like when a contrail has inter-mingled with the aircraft's wing tip vortices. |
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