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ForMadeline
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 3
Location: Charleston, SC |
1st time observer in Charleston SC
 Wed May 29, 2002 2:42 am
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On a clear blue memorial day I noticed the sky corrupted by high flying planes with awful exhaust. In 1 day, my outlook on our government has greatly worsened. After researching the internet, I discovered the chemtrail subjects, and now wonder what to do next-write my congressman, write a letter to the editor? Any suggestions are welcome. I only have watched the spraying for two days but am really pissed b/c my wife who is pregnant has develped an itchy rash in the last 3 days & we found out our sister-in-law who just had a baby also has a similar rash. I am new into this topic. What can I do..anything? |
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Unhappy Trails
Joined: 10 May 2002
Posts: 256
Location: Seattle, WA |
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Wed May 29, 2002 6:00 am
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ForMadeline, welcome. You are not alone. There are many of us who have just discovered that our government is spraying the skies, and us, with.....something. It is a sad and frightening reality. I am on day 20 to having my eyes opened and I will never be the same again. My life has changed drastically. I no longer feel certain about my childrens future. I no longer feel comfortable being in this country. I don't know who's in charge anymore, who would do this without the consent of the people.
There are things you can do to become proactive. First, learn everything you can about this Global Weather Modification project our government and 13 other NATO countries have implemented. It may be bigger and more sinister than we know. That's the problem. "THEY" ARE NOT TALKING! You can go to www.Carnicom.com, click on chemtrail crimes and coverups, scroll down to the Global Warming Teller doc. and there you'll see the formula these mad scientists came up with, complete with types of metals to reflect the sun, deployment and cost breakdowns. This is Edward Tellers deathbed wish to leave his mark on the planet. As if the invention of the atomic bomb wasn't enough. Also, read anything by William Thomas. www.Lifeboatnews.com. He's a very respected journalist who is up on the chemtrail issue. Globally. Also, www.cazekiel.org/harbinger/chemtrails will shed some light. And hang out here, these folks seem pretty together and supportive. It's a great place to vent and the information is current.
One more piece of advice, keep your skin covered and doors and windows closed when they're spraying. You might want to invest in an air filtering system. My family breaks out in rashes just from wearing sandals outside. Don't lose heart. We're gaining momentum. Soon there will be a public outcry that will be heard around the world. Be patient. The EPA, Dept of Ecology, Clean Air Authorities, the medias, right on down to the governors office will deny that anything is going on. They've been silenced. They'll tell you it's your imagination, that it's just 'Military Exercises'. Nothing to worry about. Heck, you'll probably lose a few friends like I have trying to convince them. Just be patient. Consider yourself blessed that you've been enlightened. Consider yourself a warrior in the making. And when it's time you'll be equipped to fight right along with us elbow to elbow. You're not alone.
[Edited 2 times, lastly by Unhappy Trails on 06-05-2002] |
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Bonehead9
Joined: 08 May 2002
Posts: 176
Location: suburb of Chicago, IL US |
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Wed May 29, 2002 6:40 pm
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ForMadeline, I don't think you will find too many people who will argue that contrails are not a persistent problem in our sky. On the other hand, whether or not these contrails are in fact chemtrails, is another matter over which there is still a lot of debate.
The biggest problem with the chemtrail argument is that much of it is based on pseudoscience, or just plain bad science. (Some of the stuff on the carnicom site is a classic example of this.) I don’t know what your background is in science (any classes in high school or college?), so I will just say this.. try to keep an open mind. Be skeptical about everything until you can independently verify it, and above all, CONSIDER THE SOURCE.
Some of the classic fallacies that are often presented in the Chemtrails/ Chemtrails debate are these:
1) Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. (this one is for the chemies)
2) Any proposition must be falsifiable in order to be proved (This one is for the debunkers, it is the flip side of #1, above) For example you could argue that the universe is nothing more than a collection of basic building blocks in a giant electron (remember that scene in Animal House?  ) But, since you can never prove that this theory is wrong (ie step outside the universe) then it is not falsifiable and therefore invalid (although it is a neat idea).
3) Correlation does not mean causation. For example we can correlate children’s shoe sizes with their math scores, but there is no cause and effect there.
Finally, if your wife is pregnant, there are other, much more immediate environmental issues you should be concerned with. Living in SC, mold is one. One other very important issue is lead based paint not to mention common household cleaners, paints, solvents, etc.
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________________
The
pachycephalsaurus's
most unique feature
was an 11" thick skull,
presumably for head
butting contests within
the herd. |
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Nirvana
Joined: 01 Nov 2001
Posts: 180
Location: Seattle, WA |
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Wed May 29, 2002 7:37 pm
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I'd like to add a comment and more rules.
Be skeptical about everything until you can independently verify it, and above all, CONSIDER THE SOURCE.
Rule #4. Our government and various institutions, religious organizations, think tanks, commentators, news organizations, etc. can and will lie, leave out critical details, or distort the truth in any subject. The hidden Priority #1 for the people behind our government is protecting and increasing the wealth and power of the elite. Manipulating the truth including disinformation is often necessary to achieve Priority #1.For more information, read "The Price" by Nicolo Machiavelli, written in 1505.
Information is information regardless of the source. Do not discount a source 100% because they are not 'official' or have said things you do not agree with.
Rule #5. If enough people say the same thing, it might be worthwhile to take note, regardless of what "official" organizations say. For more information as to why, see #4 above.
3) Correlation does not mean causation. For example we can correlate children’s shoe sizes with their math scores, but there is no cause and effect there.
...but, correlation can be an indicator of causation in the scope of the bigger picture of information. Keep the information in mind, and look for more clues like a good detective until you can conclusively prove or disprove the given subject. In my opinion, there is not enough proof about chemtrails either way. But, there are sufficient indications to warrant further research.
Ciao.
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bshrdr
Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
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Wed May 29, 2002 8:05 pm
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quote:
read "The Price" by Nicolo Machiavelli
I thought it was "The Prince" Funny what one letter will do to a word...
quote:
Information is information regardless of the source. Do not discount a source 100% because they are not 'official' or have said things you do not agree with.
ALWAYS question ANY source. If you take something as Gospel without corroborating it, you are just joining the other sheeple, lapping it up, whether you're on either side of the coin.
quote:
Rule #5. If enough people say the same thing, it might be worthwhile to take note, regardless of what "official" organizations say. For more information as to why, see #4 above.
Again, a sheeple attitude. THINK FOR YOURSELF, PEOPLE!!!!!
And my #1 rule of all - Just because it's on the Internet, doesn't mean it's true! Anyone can get a domain, put together a pretty good looking website, and fill it with utter crap, touting it as fact, with gobs of alleged research. You going to believe that at face value? I hope not. Check into it yourself first. Go to the library and do some real research - a google search doesn't count....
I don't care which side of the debate you're on, the biggest thing is to NOT rely on other's "research" - do your own (at a library, educational institution, etc.), and prove it to yourself before you tout it as 100% fact. Otherwise you're no better than a lemming heading towards the cliff....
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"If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"
Summer of My Discontent by Gargantua Soul |
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ForMadeline
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 3
Location: Charleston, SC |
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Wed May 29, 2002 8:32 pm
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I appreciate the replies and will take them into consideration. It is reassurring to hear sincere feedback from strangers. Thanks |
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noblegas
Joined: 13 May 2002
Posts: 6
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Wed May 29, 2002 9:17 pm
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ForMadeline
It seems like some of the posters in reply to you are setting themselves up to be "experts" on questioning experts. I will not tell you to do anything. Remember, books, libraries, news, people, can be just as phoney as the internet. Air filters, Malic Acid for Aluminum, Sodium Sulphate and EDTA for Barium. These are antidotes. Go to Work. |
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Nirvana
Joined: 01 Nov 2001
Posts: 180
Location: Seattle, WA |
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Wed May 29, 2002 10:20 pm
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Okay, getting back to ForMadeline's topic. IMO, to help bring about chemtrail change, I recommend you work to raise public awareness. Editorials, write to congressman, talk to your friends, family, neighbors subtly or overtly, make your own bumper sticker, etc. All these are good. The key is to raise awareness among the general population. Put the question in their mind that some contrails may not be natural. Yes, do your own research and make a short list of the reasons why you feel the way you do. They can decide what to do with that information after that point.
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Noblegas said:
"It seems like some of the posters in reply to you are setting themselves up to be "experts" on questioning experts."
Noblegas. It sounds like you have some very recent experience in the "setting up" area...nice try. 
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Nirvana
Joined: 01 Nov 2001
Posts: 180
Location: Seattle, WA |
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Wed May 29, 2002 10:50 pm
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Here's another idea for getting the word out. Write letters to local labor unions. Include some chemtrail information and pictures. They tend to be activist and mildly distrustful of government. If they bought on to the idea, they would raise holy heck!! The AFL-CIO marched here in Seattle during the WTO protests.
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noblegas
Joined: 13 May 2002
Posts: 6
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Wed May 29, 2002 10:51 pm
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Nirvana Said
"Noblegas. It sounds like you have some very recent experience in the "setting up" area...nice try"
Do you mean you are one of the "experts" or do you mean I am not? I was responding to Kunz's ranting and not your's. Although it seems like your posts put you in the "Esoteric" branch of chemtrail research. You know, pray to the earth goddess, send positive thoughts to George Bush, bumper stickers, praying, chanting,etc. Well, if that works OK. Myself, family, and friends are taking the chemical/social approach. EDTA, Sodium Sulphate, Malic Acid, Call police and mayor when spraying, HEPA filters in home and car, telling everyone and their kin, etc. I don't "tell" people what to do like yourself and others. What I do is present the data as I see it. Take it or leave it. Some people make chemtrails and up-one-manship issue, much like the pseudo-science of psychiatry. "I know what to do and you don't or I'm aware of them and you're just a dumb little beginner." Armchair liberalism. $#@#!. |
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Nirvana
Joined: 01 Nov 2001
Posts: 180
Location: Seattle, WA |
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Thu May 30, 2002 12:29 am
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First off, I never said I was an expert. I'm just sharing ideas and observations like yourself. The “expert” term was your classification. You said, “It seems like some of the posters in reply to you are setting themselves up to be "experts" on questioning experts.” Mr. Kunz did not respond to this post. So, you must have meant one or more of the other five posters including me. Since you criticized one or more of the five of us as “Experts questioning experts”. I thought I’d include you in the group too, since you are coming across as the same kind of “expert questioning experts” according to your logic.
Attempting to persuade the AFO-CIO does not fit into your little list of woo-woo stuff. “…telling everyone and their kin” Yes…that’s a good idea. I’ll not bother discounting the rest this “woo-woo” material, aside from your health ideas perhaps. Judging by your writing style, I’ll bet Rush “Goebbels” Limbaugh and Bill O’Reilly are your heroes. Yawn.
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David
Joined: 20 Oct 2000
Posts: 1381
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Thu May 30, 2002 1:28 am
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A lot of tension on the board lately. Notice it?
Each person has to do what is right for them. Some have more time and energy, some are just plain afraid to get too involved, and I can't blame them. And some just don't know where to start.
Nirvana has given some very good advice, advice that I would suggest following.
As for the debunkers, well I believe the Wizard of Oz said it best; "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain". Follow your heart make up you own mind and do what is best for you and yours.
David |
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Dan Rockwell
Joined: 10 Dec 2001
Posts: 1988
Location: Stamford, CT, USA |
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Thu May 30, 2002 1:32 am
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Yawn. - Now you got me started Nirvana.
There are many ways to raise public awareness and I have tried a few more than once for different causes that I have been involved in through the years but it is not an easy and quick process. It takes time. Up until November, I could only remember 2 times that we were sprayed here and I was perfectly doing archaeological research and wildlife habitat rehabilitation projects and writing books. - But that all changed in November. Now I as well as quite a few others here are trying to figure out exactly what the hell is going on and have spent a great deal of time and effort to document as much as possible and to let people know about it. - There are just some people that refuse to believe that there is anything unusual going on in the sky above us while others are just too busy to take notice of it. Some people are just too frightened to do anything about it while others are still trying to cope with what happened last September. - But there are more and more people that are waking up and noticing that something is wrong. - I think there were only a little over 700 members when I came here and now we've got over 900. - A few of them are debunkers, but a lot of them are just like us and are looking for answers just like we are and I predict that more will come.
Sorry about the rant, but even us Moderators have our days. We've been sprayed for over a week straight here and it's starting to bug me.
Well anyway, I did a little google search and discovered that "The Prince" can be read online or downloaded.
The Prince - First published 1515
Translated by W. K. Marriott
http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/m/m149p/index.html
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Dan Rockwell
Joined: 10 Dec 2001
Posts: 1988
Location: Stamford, CT, USA |
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Thu May 30, 2002 1:34 am
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Yeah David, there's a little bit of tension here. |
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Bonehead9
Joined: 08 May 2002
Posts: 176
Location: suburb of Chicago, IL US |
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Thu May 30, 2002 2:19 am
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ForMadeline, you can see what happens here. There are two sides, deeply entrenched, neither willing to give in.
From Nirvana:
Rule #4. Our government and various institutions, religious organizations, think tanks, commentators, news organizations, etc. can and will lie, leave out critical details, or distort the truth in any subject. The hidden Priority #1 for the people behind our government is protecting and increasing the wealth and power of the elite. Manipulating the truth including disinformation is often necessary to achieve Priority #1.For more information, read "The Price" by Nicolo Machiavelli, written in 1505.
Information is information regardless of the source. Do not discount a source 100% because they are not 'official' or have said things you do not agree with.
OK, which is it? a) don't believe any thing the government, or scientists tell us because they all lie, or b) Information is information regardless of the source.
This seems like contradictory advice to me.
As it is, the first paragraph is a twist of the classic fallacy known as an appeal to authority (argumentum ad verecundiam). Only in this case rather than basing an argument on dubious authority, Nirvana bases his argument on a denial that an obvious authority exists. Now granted, not everyone who works for the government or is a scientist is an expert on everything, It is still a little far fetched to claim that "they are all involved in the conspiracy."
Nirvana also stated : "Rule #5. If enough people say the same thing, it might be worthwhile to take note, regardless of what "official" organizations say. For more information as to why, see #4 above."
Just because everyone says its true than it must be true right? To use on of my favorite analogies, everyone believed in witches once, that was a major justification for burning people at the stake. Or just like everyone once "knew" that tomatoes were poisonous. or that everyone once knew that the sun revolved around the earth. This is known as the Appeal to Popularity fallacy or (argumentum ad populum).
bshrdr wrote And my #1 rule of all - Just because it's on the Internet, doesn't mean it's true! Anyone can get a domain, put together a pretty good looking website, and fill it with utter crap, touting it as fact, with gobs of alleged research. You going to believe that at face value? I hope not. Check into it yourself first. Go to the library and do some real research - a google search doesn't count....
Sounds like you're describing carnicom's site.
Dan Rockwell wrote: I think there were only a little over 700 members when I came here and now we've got over 900. - A few of them are debunkers, but a lot of them are just like us and are looking for answers just like we are and I predict that more will come.
I'd say more than just a few are debunkers. BTW, how many have been banned from here? not as many as from Carnicom's site I am sure, but more than just a few. How many registered, made a few posts and left, never to return?
Tension?
well it all depends on your approach. If you are convinced that this is a life or death situation, and no on is listening to you then you will be a little frustrated. Or if you want the arguments to be based on basic, accepted principles of science, not pseudoscience, (like me ), then you are liable to get a little frustrated when people persist in believing that the sun is "not where it should be in the sky" when this is simply impossible.
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________________
The
pachycephalsaurus's
most unique feature
was an 11" thick skull,
presumably for head
butting contests within
the herd.
[Edited 2 times, lastly by Bonehead9 on 05-29-2002] |
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