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'Jet trails linked to temperature shifts'

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GAS_MASK





Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 151
PostSun Sep 01, 2002 10:32 pm  Reply with quote  

A lot of talk has been going on about SST aircraft doing a whole bunch more damage to the upper atmosphere than their slower and lower counterparts. Any comments on that, anyone?
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PacerLJ35





Joined: 18 Apr 2002
Posts: 456
Location: Millbrook, AL, USA
PostSun Sep 01, 2002 10:48 pm  Reply with quote  

SST aircraft burn alot of gas. I doubt we'll see widespread useage of SST airliners until a more viable fuel can be found...and the hydrogen fuel is one thing they are looking at because it contains more energy per pound than hydrocarbon fuel.

I seriously doubt that SST aircraft will become commercially viable in the next 10 years. This talk sounds alot like the clamor for SST travel in the early 1970s, when it was forcast that most people would be travelling supersonic by the 1990s. But the economics of the whole thing just didn't make sense. Supersonic airplanes=narrow cabins. Narrow cabins=fewer passengers. Fewer passengers=ultra-high ticket prices to pay for the huge amount of operating costs that SSTs bring.

I have an SUV (Rodeo) because my wife likes to sit up higher and we needed a vehicle that had some room. It still gets decent gas mileage...about 25...not bad for a truck. But I drive a 5-speed Ford Escort that gets about 36 mpg.
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GAS_MASK





Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 151
PostSun Sep 01, 2002 11:02 pm  Reply with quote  

Off topic, but did you hear about the caravan of liquid hydrogen-powered BMWs touring Europe?
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theseeker





Joined: 25 Jul 2000
Posts: 3403
Location: Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
PostMon Sep 02, 2002 12:34 am  Reply with quote  

mask,

the purpose of adding r-134-a to jet fuel, only would be for the few flights that go really fast at really high altitude...

fuel boils in the tanks on it's own under those conditions, the r-134-a is used as a coolant...which increase performance and the distance of the flight...

now go take on the day...



------------------
T/S
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PacerLJ35





Joined: 18 Apr 2002
Posts: 456
Location: Millbrook, AL, USA
PostMon Sep 02, 2002 2:36 am  Reply with quote  

No I didn't hear about the BMWs, but it wouldn't suprise me that they are already touting this fuel as the next generation. Cars can adapt to the fuel faster, simply because there are fewer safety-related problems...in airplanes, a component failing due to brittle metal is a bad thing...something they are currently working on.

The only problem about the car adaptation is cost....while aviation won't have as many problems switching fuels, auto users will. Hydrogen is expensive, handling issues exist, and the general public tends to stick to things they know.

In the aviation industry, all those things can be overcome. Costs can be made up by improving engine design (to burn less fuel), fuel handlers will be professionally trained by OSHA standards, and the aviation industry in general is usually keen to try things that can cut costs, noise and pollution, because image is a big deal when dealing with the public.
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Mech





Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 8237
Location: THE 4th REICH USA
PostMon Sep 02, 2002 5:31 am  Reply with quote  

Hi,

Just found this site. I have been in aviation for 5 years now, as a Navy F/A-18 Mechanic and now Civilian A&P.Water injection systems are used for a maximum of 3 minutes for extra horsepower at takeoff.I suppose this system could be used for other purposes.I have seen the "white planes" before. Sometimes they are 767's, 757's and I have also seen DC-8's and some older planes painted as such. Most of them you can't get even close to even with a security clearance. I v'e seen them at Nellis, Las Vegas and as far East as Hanscom AFB, Bedford Mass. I haven't read up enough yet to elaborate but all of this is new to me. I had no idea. Hope to learn some more.
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GAS_MASK





Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 151
PostMon Sep 02, 2002 6:14 am  Reply with quote  

Seeker, you can't just add a refrigerant to a substance and expect to cool it down. R-134a (or any refrigerant for that matter) would not have any cooling effect on anything unless it went through the complete 4 step refrigeration process.

R-134a is a flourine based gas. If you somehow added it to aircraft fuel by means of dissolving it, it would simply bubble out and emulsify the fuel.

If any refrigerant was to be used to cool a fuel tank down, it would be in a self contained AC&R system within the aircraft itself, complete with tubes running through the tanks, with sinks for extra heat transfer (like a wine cooler).


[Edited 5 times, lastly by GAS_MASK on 09-02-2002]
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GAS_MASK





Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 151
PostMon Sep 02, 2002 6:18 am  Reply with quote  

Mech, welcome to the board.

Were you east or west coast Navy?

[Edited 1 times, lastly by GAS_MASK on 09-02-2002]
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PacerLJ35





Joined: 18 Apr 2002
Posts: 456
Location: Millbrook, AL, USA
PostMon Sep 02, 2002 6:19 am  Reply with quote  

Water injection was used with older turbojets. Modern aircraft, such as the 757/767/747 types don't use engines that have water injection capability. The last aircraft to use engines with water injection was the KC-135A tanker with the original P&W J57 turbojets. All of those were either retired or modified into KC-135R tankers.

Even older aircraft like DC-8s and 707 freighters no longer use water injection...or they wouldn't be allowed to operate within the US due to Stage I noise restrictions. Most DC-8s were modified with TF-33 turbofans or CFM-56 turbofans, neither of which can inject water.

Most of the aircraft described above are used for testing purposes, although nearly all of them I've seen were variants of the C-135. There are a few (C-22, C-32) that are used for high level command-and-control, and aren't listed in the AF fleet. They are plainly marked. But there are only about 3-4 of them.
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GAS_MASK





Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 151
PostMon Sep 02, 2002 6:22 am  Reply with quote  

(edited)

Are water injection systems used in F-15 and 16's?

[Edited 2 times, lastly by GAS_MASK on 09-02-2002]
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PacerLJ35





Joined: 18 Apr 2002
Posts: 456
Location: Millbrook, AL, USA
PostMon Sep 02, 2002 6:28 am  Reply with quote  

Not that I'm aware of. Having a huge 30,000 lb ST engine in an airplane that weighs only 40,000-50,000 lbs creates a pretty good thrust-to-weight ratio without the marginal increase in power with water injection.

Water injection is really stressful on an engine, and merely tricks the engine into providing more power, but not a whole lot more power. That, and a water injection takeoff is extremely loud...earsplitting is an understatement. I watched a KC-135A takeoff from Barksdale about 11 years ago, and it was so loud.
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PacerLJ35





Joined: 18 Apr 2002
Posts: 456
Location: Millbrook, AL, USA
PostMon Sep 02, 2002 6:35 am  Reply with quote  

By the way, there are "regular" C-22 (Boeing 727) and C-32 (Boeing 757) in service with the 89th Airlift Wing at Andrews AFB, and are used for VIP transport.

The ones I was referring to are the ones that aren't listed in the official Air Force fleet, and have been seen with fake tail numbers, painted all white or nearly so. I've seen the C-22, but I haven't ever personally seen the C-32s, of which Air Forces Monthly magazine has reportedly seen two with fake tail numbers that don't appear in the official USAF inventory. Since there are only a handful of these "mystery" airplanes, it's speculated that they are used for high-level C&C missions.

The nearly all-white C-135s that are operated by contractors to the USAF use these as flying testbed aircraft for new radar, electronics and instrumentation, much of which is likely classified. But again, there aren't very many of these in service.
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PacerLJ35





Joined: 18 Apr 2002
Posts: 456
Location: Millbrook, AL, USA
PostMon Sep 02, 2002 6:43 am  Reply with quote  

Welcome to the discussion, mech. Feel free to visit over on the chemtrail skeptic's site as well:
http://pub31.ezboard.com/fcontrailsandchemtrails22884frm1
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Mech





Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 8237
Location: THE 4th REICH USA
PostMon Sep 02, 2002 7:06 am  Reply with quote  

Thanks Pacer, I like to see both sides of the coin!

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Mech on 09-02-2002]
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theseeker





Joined: 25 Jul 2000
Posts: 3403
Location: Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
PostMon Sep 02, 2002 7:07 am  Reply with quote  

mask,

Seeker, you can't just add a refrigerant to a substance and expect to cool it down R-134a (or any refrigerant for that matter)

hmmm...

read this about jp8+100...mask...

http://www.af.mil/news/Nov2001/n20011114_1628.shtml


specifically :


"At a certain altitude and speed, JP8 breaks down," Chavis said. "The additive adds about 100 degrees before the breakdown happens."

This is critical for fighter aircraft that depend on fuel for cooling major components, he said.


now as far as injecting the additive...you said :


If any refrigerant was to be used to cool a fuel tank down, it would be in a self contained AC&R system within the aircraft itself, complete with tubes running through the tanks, with sinks for extra heat transfer (like a wine cooler).


hmmm...

from the same link this application seems to work for jp8+100, without the wine coolers :


Fuel trucks can hook directly to the hydrants, which were fitted with the injector system for the additive. Special hoses can also be attached to the hydrants so aircraft can be fueled directly in the hot pit area


oh my...

------------------
T/S
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