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Sore Throat
Joined: 01 Sep 2000
Posts: 1802
Location: x |
Ozone Depletion & Barium Chemistry
 Mon Nov 06, 2000 5:36 am
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There is no reasonable argument to minimize the severity of the depletion of the protective ozone layer of our atmosphere. It is bad and getting worse. This is a fact.
"Sagan: Earth's ozone layer not recovering as fast as predicted" -Deborah www.escribe.com/science/carlsagan/m13538.html
"Antarctic Ozone Hole at Record Size" http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/space/20000911/sc/antarctic_ozone_hole_at_record_size_1. html
"Ozone hole largest yet"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_916000/916037.stm
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Basic chemistry of ozone depletion www.nas.nasa.gov/Services/Education/Resources/TeacherWork/Ozone/Ozone_chem.html
"one molecule of chlorine can degrade over 100,000 molecules of ozone before it is removed from the stratosphere or becomes part of an inactive compound"
Chemical reactions of the elements - Barium www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Ba/chem.html
"Reaction of barium with the halogens
I expect barium is very reactive towards the halogens, but I've not yet found explicit references to that effect. So, it is epxected that chlorine, Cl2 bromine, Br2, or iodine, I2, would burn to form the dihalides barium(II) chloride, BaCl2, barium(II) bromide, BaBr2, and barium(II) iodide, BaI2 respectively. The reactions with bromine and with iodine wolud probably require heat."
Ba(s) + Cl2(g) -> BaCl2(s)
Ba(s) + Br2(g) -> BaBr2(s)
Ba(s) + I2(g) -> BaI2(s)
"Metallic Ba and Ba/Al-alloys are mainly used as scavengers to remove the last traces of unwanted gases from vacuum tubes."
http://media.payson.tulane.edu:8083/html/env/enven/vol315.htm
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Assuming the the situation was severe enough to require such desperate measures, would anyone care to speculate as to what would be a better chemistry to cleanse the atmosphere of ozone depleting compounds? Please consider abundance, availability, and cost.
This is, of course, completely hypothetical.
The only acknowledged FACT is the accelerating depletion of our ozone layer and the consequences for life on earth.
How bad would it have to get before TPTB would be forced to try something?
"Arctic ozone damage 'likely by 2020'" http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_990000/990391.stm
"Radiation Alert Under Ozone Hole in Southern Chile" (skin burns in seven minutes) http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20001009/wl/environment_chile_dc_1.html
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By the way, did you know that barium carbonate is used as a rat poison?
Heavy Metal Toxicity - Barium (Check out the "ChemTrails" at this web site) http://website.lineone.net/~alexaras/webbarium.html
**BARIUM CARBONATE** MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET
http://chem-courses.ucsd.edu/CoursePages/Uglabs/MSDS/barium.carbonate.-fisher.html
[Edited 2 times, lastly by Sore Throat on 11-05-2000] |
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theseeker
Joined: 25 Jul 2000
Posts: 3403
Location: Damnit...I'm a doctor jim |
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Mon Nov 06, 2000 6:02 am
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Do you have 20 to 40 years throat ?
From NASA :
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast02oct_1.htm?list127675
"It takes a long time for the CFCs to get up into the stratosphere in the first place, so it's going to take a long time for them to come back out," McPeters said.
CFCs released at the ground diffuse upward through the lowest layer of the atmosphere, called the troposphere. The vertical air currents of tropospheric weather help push CFCs up to the next layer, the stratosphere. Once there, CFCs rise more slowly because stratospheric air has less vertical air movement.
In fact, it can take a CFC molecule about 2 years after being released at the ground to make it to the stratosphere where the ozone is. And it can take decades for it to be converted by sunlight into a form that is harmful to ozone, according to Dr. Charles Jackman, an atmospheric modeler at GSFC.
Once a CFC molecule is converted to its destructive form, it can linger in the stratosphere for a few years before it drifts back down into the troposphere in the form of hydrogen chloride (HCl) and is washed out of the atmosphere by rain, Jackman said.
In 1994, NOAA scientists first measured a decrease in the amount of CFCs in the lowest layer of the atmosphere. Since these CFCs would eventually work their way up to the stratosphere -- where the ozone is -- this finding gave hope that CFC concentrations in the stratosphere would also soon begin to decline.
"It'll be a number of years before you start to see real reductions in the CFCs in the stratosphere," McPeters said.
Model calculations suggest that ozone recovery to pre-1980 levels could take 20 to 40 years, he explained. "So it's not something where you'd expect to see a big change this year."
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T/S |
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Duncan Kunz
Joined: 19 Oct 2000
Posts: 582
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Mon Nov 06, 2000 6:10 am
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I don't think anyone whe is the least bit conversant with ozone depletion in the higher latitudes could be anything else but worried bout the present and future dangers of such depletion.
But with a grand total of two college chemistry courses, I would certainly not speculate about the effect of barium on chlorine or whether removing chlorine by turning it into Barium Chloride or Barium Chlorate ar anything else would be feasible.
If you wanted to determine how well barium reacts with chlorine, I guess all you'd have to do is to count the electrons in the outer shells and see how easy either an ionic or a covalent bond would be to form. Again, I'm certainly no chemist.
But the bottom line is your excellent quote:
"The only acknowledged FACT is the accelerating depletion of our ozone layer and the consequences for life on earth."
Whether or not you believe in contrails-as-chemtrails, ozone depletion is a concern that most of us can get behind.
Duncan Kunz |
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theseeker
Joined: 25 Jul 2000
Posts: 3403
Location: Damnit...I'm a doctor jim |
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Mon Nov 06, 2000 6:31 am
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Ok duncan take a stab at this, is cfc's have been reducing for the last 13 years....and also have been measured to be lower and declining...why is the hole getting bigger ?
Couldn't have anything to do with the southern hemisphere (pole) facing away from the sun....could it !!!!!!
you guys really crack me up....
Do I need to post the pic again....
geez louise
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Sore Throat
Joined: 01 Sep 2000
Posts: 1802
Location: x |
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Mon Nov 06, 2000 7:12 am
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Let me repeat Seeker...
Since you're so "cracked up" you just don't seem to get it.
"one molecule of chlorine can degrade over 100,000 molecules of ozone before it is removed from the stratosphere or becomes part of an inactive compound"
Also, the point about movement from the lower to the upper atmosphere would indicate that a remediation effort is not that implausible.
Whatever data that you have fails to acknowledge the FACT that the ozone depletion problem, in BOTH hemispheres, continues to worsen.
But then I forgot, you're out! |
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theseeker
Joined: 25 Jul 2000
Posts: 3403
Location: Damnit...I'm a doctor jim |
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Mon Nov 06, 2000 7:29 am
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>"one molecule of chlorine can degrade over 100,000 molecules of ozone before it is removed from the stratosphere or becomes part of an inactive compound"<
Read this _________!
In fact, it can take a CFC molecule about 2 years after being released at the ground to make it to the stratosphere where the ozone is. And it can take decades for it to be converted by sunlight into a form that is harmful to ozone, according to Dr. Charles Jackman, an atmospheric modeler at GSFC.
In your next statement throat :
>Also, the point about movement from the lower to the upper atmosphere would indicate that a remediation effort is not that implausible.<
I guess were in agreement there, materials released at an altitude would go up and float around for a while making 'spraying' moot....right...throat....
>Whatever data that you have fails to acknowledge the FACT that the ozone depletion problem, in BOTH hemispheres, continues to worsen.<
Well maybe so but It ain't my car's fault pal, maybe this is part of the planet's evolution...and there's not a damn thing we can do about it >>>>>
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Duncan Kunz
Joined: 19 Oct 2000
Posts: 582
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Mon Nov 06, 2000 2:59 pm
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Dear Mr. Seeker:
As I mentioned earlier, I have little expertise in chemistry; I believe the best possible way to lose credibility is to pontificate about things for which I have little or no understanding.
To the best of my knowledge, you are correct in your assertion that CFCs are being used less and less, which leads me to GUESS that either (1) the correlation between CFCs and the ozone layer depletion is not as strong as previously believed, or (2) that the time-sequence between changes (positive or negative) of CFC injection into the atmosphere is much more long-term. If the former is the case, the discussion of CFC (and, in particular, chlorine) is less relevant than we would believe. If the latter obtains, then we will have to wait until we can determine the time-lag before really knowing what is going on vis-a-vis the CFC/ozone hole depletion activities.
Two points do come to mind, however. First, if there is a positive and short-term correlation between CFCs in the atmosphere, it would seem to me that any putative spraying for this purpose would be going on in the polar regions, not over tropical or temperate latitudes as have been suggested by the chemtrail-proponents.
Second, you suggested a hypothesis that the change in size of the ozone-layer hole is correlated to the Southern Hemisphere facing away from the Sun. Although that statement is true on the surface, it is not relevant to the discussion. While it is true that the ozone-layer hole increases when the Southern Hemisphere is tilted away from the Sun, you must also remember that the Northern Hemisphere is tilted just as far from the sun during our winter, and it is the year-by-year increase in the size of the winter hole that concerns researchers, not the annual cycle of increase.
Regards,
Duncan Kunz / duncan.kunz@prodigy.net
Mesa, AZ / 480-891-2525 |
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cydoniaquest
Joined: 12 Aug 2000
Posts: 797
Location: nowhere |
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Mon Nov 06, 2000 4:46 pm
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DELETED BY THE ARTIST FORMALLY KNOWN AS CYDONIAQUEST
[Edited 1 times, lastly by cydoniaquest on 01-13-2001] |
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Sore Throat
Joined: 01 Sep 2000
Posts: 1802
Location: x |
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Mon Nov 06, 2000 9:25 pm
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"Living under the hole in the sky"
The citizens of Punta Arenas, Chile, are the subjects of a potentially deadly experiment: What happens to people who live under the widening ozone hole?
As ground zero of a global ecological catastrophe, Punta Arenas is becoming famous, or infamous, as the city that has squatted directly under the gaping hole in the earth's ozone layer. What's happening down here on the edge of nowhere is an uncontrolled science experiment -- exposing human beings to long-term increased doses of potentially deadly ultraviolet radiation in their natural habitat.
and death. Up until now the rest of the world has watched from afar, complacent in the conviction that it has largely addressed the problem. But people better pay close
It may take years before the results are in, before we know the full toll in vision problems and skin cancers, illness attention to what happens down here, because scientists fear that -- in the future -- regions farther from the poles could face a thinning of the ozone layer next.
...more
www.salon.com/health/feature/2000/11/03/ozone/index.html
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Can anyone actually imagine the Rooster shutting up?
Data coming Reynolds...prepare to choke! |
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Sore Throat
Joined: 01 Sep 2000
Posts: 1802
Location: x |
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Mon Nov 06, 2000 10:35 pm
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The question put forward, which no one has addressed is:
If the depletion of the ozone layers was considered severe enough to warrant remediation efforts, would there be a better material than barium (considering cost, availability and chemistry) to conduct such an operation?
Simple question.
Where are all those self-professed "experts"?
No comment on topic Rooster? |
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nodebbunker
Joined: 01 Nov 2000
Posts: 200
Location: Indiana USA |
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Mon Nov 06, 2000 11:32 pm
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ST, How and Who would be doing this remediation? |
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theseeker
Joined: 25 Jul 2000
Posts: 3403
Location: Damnit...I'm a doctor jim |
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Tue Nov 07, 2000 12:44 am
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probably these guys Deb....
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Sore Throat
Joined: 01 Sep 2000
Posts: 1802
Location: x |
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Tue Nov 07, 2000 5:43 am
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"Health authorities called an orange alert -- the second most dangerous level in a scale of four -- in which ultraviolet (UV) exposure can cause skin burns in 7 minutes. A red alert can provoke burning in 5 minutes."
Skin "sun" burns in 7 minutes of exposure. Red alerts when this occurs as fast as five minutes.
Would the American public accept such a "life style"?
Would they be clammoring for some form of "government action" as they do IN ANY CRISIS?
You bet!
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that it is reasonable to consider such a scenario.
Once again all you experts out there...what would be a better chemistry to scavenge the atmosphere of ozone depleting compounds?
Your failure to address this issue in a serious matter speaks volumes.
It certainly isn't because it's not a relevant problem, nor has atmospheric modification been considered for far less pressing issues.
This silence is one of impotence.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Sore Throat on 11-06-2000] |
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theseeker
Joined: 25 Jul 2000
Posts: 3403
Location: Damnit...I'm a doctor jim |
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Tue Nov 07, 2000 5:56 am
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Were just waiting for you to take the lead and show us which way to go throat.....
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Sore Throat
Joined: 01 Sep 2000
Posts: 1802
Location: x |
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Tue Nov 07, 2000 6:04 am
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ASk the people living in Puenta Arenas if they think the "earth is in balance". ASk them if they have every experienced such an environment extreme ever before in their life.
CFC production has not abated around the world, and there are limited means to deal with the tons that are presently in use, and leaking into the atmosphere.
Both the Rooster and seeker conveniently overlook the RESIDENCE times of these ozone depleting CATALYSTS (i.e., NOT consumed by the reaction they promote).
Yes it's quite interesting the position they take on this matter.
And there was no mistake, in their case, in the use of the term impotence.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Sore Throat on 11-06-2000] |
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