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Mech
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 8237
Location: THE 4th REICH USA |
 Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:16 pm
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I think its fine that they have all rights finacial andd social as hetro couples do...but,
I just don't see it as marriage.
Marriage, (imho) is normally done to PROCREATE (again, in my opinion) or bring forth children in a stable environment, [mother and father figure] etc.
I'm not against gays but somehow I just look at it from a biological/anatomical standpoint that the "parts" don't fit.
Psychologically, they certainly do.
You can't really change what someone is INSIDE.
Be that as it may, call me old-fashioned, i still see marriage as between a man and woman and civil unions between gays.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Mech on 02-13-2004] |
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Swamp Gas
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 4254
Location: On a Hill in the Lowlands |
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Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:29 pm
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Well, Since Theta and I don't have children, that would put us into the same boat as gays and lesbians.
Love is Love, and in my opinion, having gays and lesbians marry will not bring the Plague and Locusts upon us, that Fundamentalists fear. It will further the cause of Love in the world, and besides, it is Constitutional to allow people to marry. At last check, The Constitution is the law of the land, and not The Bible, as much as some people would like to believe the opposite.
Which brings us to the fear (Hmmm...all these opinions seemed to based upon fear) of Cloning. I read that SOuth Korean biologists have cloned a human embryo. If homosexuals could have a child from cloning, then the last argument, weak as it is, against gays and lesbians would be rendered moot. The raising "monsters" from cloning is a smokescreen to hide the fact that there could be no excuse to hate homosexuals. Diabetes and multiple sclerosis could be cured from cloning, but religious politicians would rather have those horrible diseases present, than find a cure.
With a 50% divorce rate amongst heterosexual couples, the "straight" populace would be better to look at their own relationships, rather than trying to condemn gays/lesbians.
At one time, a black and a white couldn't marry, and woman couldn't vote. Thank goodness, progressive thought always win out in the end, and now that's law and commonplace. The Euorpeans are way ahead of the US in it's atitude toward gay marriage. It's only a matter of time before all these evolved ideas, legal pot, gay marriage, peace, space travel, representative government, respect for the environment, conscience corporations, kindness to animals and humans, and caring for the od and sick, becomes normal and replaces this horrible culture we find ourselves in. It is the true vision of Jesus, Einstein, and Ghandi
[Edited 1 times, lastly by swamp gas on 02-13-2004] |
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Mech
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 8237
Location: THE 4th REICH USA |
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Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:33 pm
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See I DON'T view this as a "Biblical" issue whatsoever.
AGAIN...I look at it from a BIOLOGICAL/ANOTOMICAL standpoint... THE PARTS DON'T FIT.
Their PSYCHOLOGY DOES. Therefore I think they should have all finacial/social rights as hetro couples and certainly shouldn't have to deal with the pain of the closet...BUT
I DON'T view it as marriage, sorry.
Civil union, yes.
I'm 100% opposed to human cloning.
Dolly the sheep is just ONE reason why cloning is a bad idea. Much like GM food.
[Edited 2 times, lastly by Mech on 02-13-2004] |
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Swamp Gas
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 4254
Location: On a Hill in the Lowlands |
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Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:49 pm
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quote:
Originally posted by Mech:
I'm 100% opposed to human cloning.
Dolly the sheep is just ONE reason why cloning is a bad idea. Much like GM food.
So you're saying that diabetics and multiple sclerosis victims must suffer with their diseases. What would you do if you had one of those diseases?
I have been a health adept for over 35 years, and their is NO cure for diabetes type 1, and I have studied with the Masters, Viktoras Kulvinskas, Ann Wigmore, and Gary Null. Sure, you can relinquish some problems, but THERE IS NO CURE, except to replace with a cloned pancreas or Beta Cells.
Civil Union is a polite way of saying, "You're a freak, and don't deserve the rights of us "normal" people"...Sorry
The tide is in the favor of Gay Marriage, and I support it 100%, because Theta and I have been harassed because of our weird lifestyle, by people who are all in horrible relationships. I think heterosexual people better clean up their own house first.
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Mech
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 8237
Location: THE 4th REICH USA |
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Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:50 pm
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SG: "The Euorpeans are way ahead of the US in it's atitude toward gay marriage."
Hmmm yeah...mabye too much so.
Ive heard stories that gay literature is becoming a requirement in public schools there and people who don't agree with gay people are being CRIMINALIZED.
As long as they don't push their agenda on me and call me "abnomal" for NOT being gay...we wont have a problem.
Personally, I don't think the human sewer system was made to have sex in.
My 2 cents. |
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Mech
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 8237
Location: THE 4th REICH USA |
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Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:53 pm
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Okay..
If you are WILLING TO LIVE with the CONSEQUENSES that a human born through CLONING won't LIVE to their 30th birthday..then fine.
Also...you are opening up a PANDORAS BOX for all kinds of experimentation and NEGATIVE cloning research.
I think Cloning is just about as dangerous as nuclear weapons are personally.
There has to be a better way. |
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Swamp Gas
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 4254
Location: On a Hill in the Lowlands |
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Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:02 pm
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Should gay couples fear to hold hands in public, for fear of violence?
I work with some gays and lesbians, and in music, I have been involved with them for decades. Normal in every way, and in fact, some don't even like "sewer sex".
I find it also hypocritical of the heterosexual "normal" males like watching lesbians having sex, but are repulsed by the male equivilant (not "sewer").
What if a heterosexual couple has "Sewer sex"? Should that be banned or frowned upon?
Gay literature in public schools is fine. Criminalization? Wasn't speaking out you were gay at one time basically a death sentence? Karma, if you will.
The solution is simple. Live and Let Live. The world will not come apart by gays and lesbians marrying, and in fact, in the long run, it will improve our planet and relationships.
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Mech
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 8237
Location: THE 4th REICH USA |
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Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:05 pm
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SG: "Theta and I have been harassed because of our weird lifestyle.
Hmm....I don't see what's "wierd" about your "lifestyle". Ive met the both of you. You're artists.
I don't think gays are "wierd" either.
Marriage is between and man and woman....that is the way its always been.Facillitating the male and female to bring forth offspring and to have a mother andd father figure present for the children.
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Swamp Gas
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 4254
Location: On a Hill in the Lowlands |
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Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:10 pm
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quote:
Originally posted by Mech:
I think Cloning is just about as dangerous as nuclear weapons are personally.
There has to be a better way.
There isn't at this point, as far as genetic predisposition diseases. There will be improvements in the science, to have clones live as long as natural born creatures.
Look at Nuclear weapons. Yes, they are dangerous. But, if an asteroid was hurtling towards earth, and the only way to knowck it off it's path was a nuclear device, well, I'd go Nuclear. Solar sails and mass drivers could work, but would take an awful long time to impliment.
The same with cloning. You are looking at the negative results of the technology. the positive results could be eradication of genetic disease, and possibly life extension. Truthfully, if it comes to cloning or hoping for hyperspace or heaven, I'll take the cloning. Every technology has it's positive or negative side. Kraftwerk summed up computers in their song " Computer World", back in 1979.
"Numbers"
Scotland Yard"
"FBI"
"Surveillance"
or
"Creativity"
"Communication"
"Time Travel"
"Love"
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Swamp Gas
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 4254
Location: On a Hill in the Lowlands |
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Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:19 pm
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quote:
Originally posted by Mech:
Marriage is between and man and woman....that is the way its always been.Facillitating the male and female to bring forth offspring and to have a mother andd father figure present for the children.
Gays have been here since the Cro-Magnons were bashing the Neanderthals over the head (Hmmm..Could it be that Neanderthal gays were seen holding hands, and the Cro-Magnons didn't like it?). You should see some of my birds. Some are strictly hetero (The King CB, his queen, Ollie), and others fall in love with their own sex. Apes show signs of homosexuality, as does most other creatures. It is normal, and has been here as long as sentient creatures have roamed the earth.
I have also seen children raised by gay or lesbian couple. The biggest problem they have is the harassment by other kids, who are mimicking their parents and society. They are friendly, and caring kids, and what counts in the parents upbringing is the Love they receive, and not the sexual organs.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by swamp gas on 02-13-2004] |
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Mech
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 8237
Location: THE 4th REICH USA |
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Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:27 pm
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SG: "Gays have been here since the Cro-Magnons were bashing the Neanderthals over the head (Hmmm..Could it be that Neanderthal gays were seen holding hands, and the Cro-Magnons didn't like it?)."
I understand that...and AGAIN...I SAID that gays shouldn't have to live in the closet.
BUT...I DISAGREE THAT 2 MEN TOGETHER OR 2 WOMEN TOGETHER IS MARRIAGE. Okay buddy?
MY OPINION.
They have a right to be together and yes...all rights granted. But MY VIEW is
MY OWN.
They BEST not push their agenda on MY KIDS in the schools and media..if I ever have them.
Just like i dont want Black panther Kalid Muhammad pushing his racist (kill all whites) garbage in taxpayer funded venues.
Deal with it.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Mech on 02-13-2004] |
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Swamp Gas
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 4254
Location: On a Hill in the Lowlands |
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Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:36 pm
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quote:
Originally posted by Mech:
They BEST not push their agenda on MY KIDS in the schools and media..if I ever have them.
Just like i dont want Black panther Kalid Muhammad pushing his racist (kill all whites) garbage in taxpayer funded venues.
Deal with it.
I don't see the corollary. All Black Panther's were not out to murder "whitey", and given the racism that has existed, sometimes I couldn't blame them, although violence begets violence, and that's not an answer.
What Agenda of Gays? Is George Bush's NeoCon War-based agenda any better, that is being pushed on the public? Is the Agenda of the Super Bowl? Everything taught in schools and the media is an "Agenda". This gay/straight issue has always been ridiculous anyway. We had Heterosexual agendas pushed on us as children. Does majority rule or does logic? I also think that the male/female tension in the heterosexual world, has it's roots in the homophobia that exists in society. Maybe males and females could accept their male or female part in themselves, if they accpeted Gay Marriage as normal.
My parents taught me to respect and care for animals, find a mate that i love, and they were way ahead of the times. Back in the 50's, they told me that being gay was OK, as long as you hurt no one. My mom worked with a black man and a gay man, and I met them both on numerous occasions. She told me what is important is the soul of a person.
It's time for gays not to be afraid to speak their minds.
[Edited 7 times, lastly by swamp gas on 02-13-2004] |
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Swamp Gas
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 4254
Location: On a Hill in the Lowlands |
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Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:49 pm
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Gay Marriage Opponents File Suit in S.F.
By LISA LEFF, Associated Press Writer
SAN FRANCISCO - Opponents of gay marriage went to court Friday to stop an extraordinary act of ongoing civil disobedience in which San Francisco has issued nearly 100 marriage licenses to gay couples.
Weddings were continuing Friday and over the long holiday weekend — despite the effort by the Campaign for California Families to obtain a restraining order that would prevent the city from issuing more licenses or performing more ceremonies inside City Hall.
But under normal legal procedures and because of Monday's President's Day holiday, it appeared unlikely that anyone would succeed in blocking the gay marriages before Tuesday.
"Frankly it was a brilliant strategy. They got it done. The unfortunate fact is that these people who think they are married may find out Tuesday they are not," Richard Ackerman, an attorney for the conservative group, said Friday.
Around the country, gays and lesbians emboldened by San Francisco's move and by the constitutional debate over gay marriage in Massachusetts went to courthouses Thursday and Friday demanding their own marriage licenses — and getting summarily rejected, since every state in the nation bans gay marriage.
But in San Francisco, with the blessing of newly elected Mayor Gavin Newsom, the county clerk has issued nearly 100 marriage licenses to gay couples. Many of the weddings have taken place in quick civil ceremonies inside the ornate City Hall, and the clerk's office planned to remain open Saturday in observance of Valentine's Day (news - web sites).
"I'm not interested as a mayor in moving forward with a separate but unequal process for people to engage in marriages," Newsom said in an interview Friday on ABC News' "Good Morning America." "I think the people of this city and certainly around the state are feeling that separate but unequal doesn't make sense."
In all, 87 couples took their vows on the spot Thursday. By Friday morning, 300 more had lined up to get their licenses, many of them driving from as far as Los Angeles.
"Even people who are anti-gay marriage might shift their thinking now and realize it's most harmful to take something away when someone already has it," said Virginia Garcia, 40, after wedding Sheila Sernovitz, 50, her partner of 14 years.
They city's bold move, however, caused an outcry from elected officials and groups opposed to gay marriage.
Campaign for California Families asked that a Superior Court judge issue a restraining order that would prevent the issuance of any more licenses to the same-sex couples, to void any licenses that have been granted, and to require city officials to abide by the rules that govern changes in law.
"Apparently, Mayor Newsom felt he's above the law and like a dictator, could simply dictate what the law should be. And he has no authority to do that, either under the city charter or state law," Ackerman said.
While it remains unclear what practical value the marriage licenses will carry, their symbolism was self-evident as lawmakers in Massachusetts debate a constitutional amendment that would ban gay marriage but legalize civil unions.
City officials tried to keep the first marriage — between longtime lesbian activists Phyllis Lyon, 79, and Del Martin, 83 — confidential so they could complete it before any court intervention. The pair, who will celebrate 51 years together on Valentine's Day, were wed by San Francisco Assessor Mabel Teng at 11:10 a.m. in a closed-door ceremony.
Afterward, Lyon said she "never dreamed" that she and Martin would be wed within their lifetimes, but that she was excited "to make it legal." Newsom was not present at that ceremony, but later presented the couple with a signed copy of the state constitution with sections related to equal rights highlighted.
"I don't think there is anyone in good conscience who can tell me that denying the same rights my wife Kimberly and I have to same-sex couples is anything but discrimination," said Newsom, who maintains the equal protection clause of the California constitution obliges the city to grant marriage licenses to gay and lesbian couples.
As word spread about the marriages, couples rushed to City Hall, most dressed casually in jeans with hastily assembled witnesses, and holding hands as they waited in a long line to pay their $82 license fee. The marble passages beneath City Hall's ornate golden dome echoed with applause as jubilant couples breezed through brief ceremonies, promising to be "spouses for life" instead of husband and wife.
"There is a part that doesn't feel romantic at all, but obviously it feels historic," said Guillermo Guerra, 29, who married Andrew Parsons, 39, his partner of eight years.
Many state officials, including Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger (news - web sites), shied away from commenting on the events. Attorney General Bill Lockyer said through a spokeswoman he has not been asked to issue an opinion on the legality of same-sex marriages under California law.
Other state officials, including Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, shied away from commenting on the events. Attorney General Bill Lockyer said through a spokeswoman he hasn't been asked to issue an opinion on the legality of same-sex marriages under California law.
But Lockyer has asked his civil rights enforcement section to review how Massachusetts' legal debate might apply to California law.
"California's constitution provides broader equal protection rights than other states," spokeswoman Hallye Jordan said.
The Massachusetts Legislature, to undo the high court ruling by rewriting the state constitution, must pass an amendment with at least 101 votes in two consecutive legislative sessions — this year and in 2005-06 — before it winds up on the ballot before voters in November 2006. The most votes any of the varying amendment proposals received Wednesday and Thursday was 98.
Thirty-eight states and the federal government have approved laws or amendments barring the recognition of gay marriage.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by swamp gas on 02-13-2004] |
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Mech
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 8237
Location: THE 4th REICH USA |
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Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:55 am
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I think the issue at hand is...
WHAT IS MARRIAGE?
What is its purpose?
What are the consequenses of 2 same sex
partners on kids health REALISTICALLY.
I still say marriage should be classified as between a man and woman.
Gays should have all the rights married couples do. I don't think it should be called marriage.
In my opinion...it isnt.
Gays can't procreate. The parts don't fit.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Mech on 02-13-2004] |
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