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defender
Joined: 27 Oct 2000
Posts: 1113
Location: Level 64 |
Oklahoma City Bombing
 Fri May 11, 2001 4:02 pm
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Just heard about the delay in the McVeigh execution due to documents kept by the FBI. Maybe there is actually some light shining through in this case? I wanted to get the thread started in case anyone wants to discuss it.
We can post more on the OKC bombing in time re: several points of evidence denied to the American public...lack of bomb crater, evidence of 2 explosions, etc. Media collusion in coverups.
Will we ever have any answers or justice re: the Waco Massacre? Were the kids who died there MKULTRA victims, executed by NSA black ops?
[Edited 2 times, lastly by defender on 05-11-2001] |
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Thermit
Joined: 08 Jul 2000
Posts: 3136
Location: Texas |
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Fri May 11, 2001 4:37 pm
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quote:
FBI Statement:
On Tuesday, May 8, the Department of Justice notified Timothy McVeigh's attorneys of a number of FBI documents that should have been provided to them during the discovery phase of the trial.
While the department is confident the documents do not in any way create any reasonable doubt about McVeigh's guilt and do not contradict his repeated confessions of guilt, the department is concerned that McVeigh's attorneys were not able to review them at the appropriate time.
The documents have been made available to McVeigh's attorneys, and the department has asked for notification if they believe any of the documents create any reasonable doubt about McVeigh's guilt.
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LWR
Joined: 25 Apr 2001
Posts: 224
Location: Menlo Park, Ca, USA |
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Fri May 11, 2001 4:43 pm
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New National Anthem
Hello?
Is there anybody in there?
Just nod if you can hear me.
Is there anyone at home?
Come on, now,
I hear you're feeling down.
Well I can ease your pain
Get you on your feet again.
Relax.
I'll need some information first.
Just the basic facts.
Can you show me where it hurts?
There is no pain you are receding
A distant ship, smoke on the horizon.
You are only coming through in waves.
Your lips move but I can't hear what you're saying.
When I was a child I had a fever
My hands felt just like two balloons.
Now I've got that feeling once again
I can't explain you would not understand
This is not how I am.
I have become comfortably numb.
O.K.
Just a little pinprick.
There'll be no more aaaaaaaaah!
But you may feel a little sick.
Can you stand up?
I do believe it's working, good.
That'll keep you going through the show
Come on it's time to go.
There is no pain you are receding
A distant ship, smoke on the horizon.
You are only coming through in waves.
Your lips move but I can't hear what you're saying.
When I was a child
I caught a fleeting glimpse
Out of the corner of my eye.
I turned to look but it was gone
I cannot put my finger on it now
The child is grown,
The dream is gone.
I have become comfortably numb.
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defender
Joined: 27 Oct 2000
Posts: 1113
Location: Level 64 |
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Fri May 11, 2001 8:58 pm
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Secret Pentagon Report on Oklahoma City Bombing--Evidence of an Inside Job?
by J. Orlin Grabbe
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
U.S. government attempts to portray Timothy McVeigh as the "lone bomber" (with assistance from Terry Nichols) in the April 19, 1995, bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City have completely collapsed with recent revelations of McVeigh's associations with individuals connected to the Aryan Republican Army, as well as with a BATF informant and an agent of German military intelligence.
This has led some to conclude that there has been a U.S. government (primarily BATF and FBI) cover-up motivated by the desire to destroy evidence of a "government sting gone bad," much as with the bombing of the World Trade Center in New York City.
The secret Pentagon report shows, however, that such a judgment may be too kind to the agencies concerned. The principal damage to the Alfred P. Murrah Building was brought about by explosives placed on five columns of the Murrah Building, according to the Pentagon report, and not by the ANFO bomb in the truck supposedly driven by McVeigh. Thus, until the individuals who placed the explosives on the columns of the Murrah Building are identified, any proposed explanation of how the bombing came about is woefully inadequate. The existence of demolition charges placed on some columns at the third-floor level of the Murrah Building is strongly suggestive of inside participation by at least some federal employees.
The Pentagon commissioned nine explosive experts to write independent reports on the bombing, and adopted two of the nine reports as the "official" report. I spoke to both experts, but they declined to be interviewed, citing confidentiality agreements with the Pentagon. Sources familiar with the Pentagon report, however, have confirmed that the conclusions were similar in nature to those of a private report prepared by General Benton K. Partin, dated July 30, 1995, except that the Pentagon report concludes there were demolition charges placed on five columns, not four as concluded by General Partin.
Partin's report showed that the pattern of damage to the Murrah Building was inconsistent with the ANFO truck bomb as a point source for the explosion, and that the damage sustained by the columns could not possibly have come from this source.
Explosive pressure drops off approximately with the cube of the distance. Double the distance, and you reduce the explosive pressure (pounds per square inch) to one-eighth its original value.
If the 4800 pounds of ammonium nitrate in the Ryder truck bomb were in a compressed sphere and detonated from the center, it would have generated a blast wave with an initial pressure of about 500,000 pounds per square inch. By the time the nearest Murrah Building column was reached, that pressure would have fallen to about 375 pounds per square inch.
The rows of columns in the Murrah building can be labeled from front to back as rows A, B, and C. The rows are about 35 feet apart. The columns in each row can be labeled from left to right (as seen by an individual facing the front of the building) as numbers 1 through 11. The third column in the first row would thus be labeled "A3". The columns are 20 feet apart within each row.
The concrete in the columns had a compressible yield strength of at least (and probably higher than) 3500 pounds per square inch. Since this value is almost ten times the strength of the blast wave hitting the columns from the truck bomb, the blast wave is insufficient to produce a wave of deformation in the concrete (and thus to turn it back into its sand, gravel, and clay components).
However, a high detonation velocity contact explosive attached to a column would have generated pressure of 1 to 1.5 million pounds per square inch-- about 300 times the yield strength of the concrete, and thus would have pulverized it into sand until the blast wave front had dropped below the yield strength of the concrete. Left behind would be a smooth granular surface with protruding steel reinforcement rods (which have a much higher yield strength).
General Partin's report shows strong evidence of such contact explosive charges placed on columns B3, A3, A5, and A7. While the truck bomb itself was insufficient to destroy columns, it was responsible for ripping out some floors at the second and third floor levels, Partin concluded.
The notion of a government-sting gone awry would at best suggest the idea that BATF or FBI agents planned to arrest McVeigh in a dramatic flourish of publicity when he pulled up in front of the Murrah Building in his rented Ryder truck containing the ANFO bomb. But this story becomes faintly ridiculous when you consider that demolition charges were placed on five Murrah Building columns well before McVeigh's arrival. If there was a government sting in operation, then someone was using their knowledge of the sting as cover for the actual bombing. Either way, it suggests an inside job.
Finally, McVeigh was not arrested prior to the bombing. Which leads one to ask, What government sting? We are basically left with evidence of government complicity and government cover-up, but with no evidence of a government sting. Did some government agency take advantage of the general expectation that something would happen that day, and, for its own reasons, ensure these fears were realized?
Prior Knowledge of the Explosion
There are several sources of evidence of a prior expectation of a bombing to take place on April 19, 1995.
Executed on the day of the Oklahoma bombing was Richard Wayne Snell for murder of a black Arkansas trooper. Snell had been involved in a plot to blow up the Murrah Building in 1983. And, according to Alan Ables, an Arkansas prison official quoted by the Denver Post, "Snell repeatedly said that there would be a bombing or explosion the day of his death." The explosion took place at the Murrah Building, the previous focus of Snell's attention.
Snell's information would appear to have come from Robert Millar, who was in attendance as Snell's spiritual advisor. Millar was the founder of Elohim City, a religious commune in Oklahoma near the border with Arkansas. Timothy McVeigh had made numerous visits to Elohim City in the weeks before the bombing (see, for example, William F. Jasper, "More Pieces to the OKC Puzzle," The New American, June 24, 1996).
A BATF informant named Carol Howe wrote her BATF case officer in Tulsa that the Elohim City group, or its operational arm the "Aryan Republican Army", was planning to blow up a building with a possible date of April 19, 1995 (McCurtain Daily Gazette, February 11, 1997). Howe said there were three possible targets, two in Tulsa, and one in Oklahoma City.
(Members of the Aryan Republican Army are currently charged with bank robberies in Ohio and Pennsylvania. This includes Peter Langan, on trial in Columbus, Ohio, and Michael Brescia, indicted in Philadelphia. Witnesses have identified Brescia as "John Doe II", originally sought by the FBI in the Oklahoma City bombing.)
The BATF says the warnings were too vague to prompt any actions. Too vague, apparently, to warn security guards at the Murrah Building, who overlooked all the activity involved in placing demolition explosives on the building columns.
But not too vague not to warn BATF employees to stay home for the day. No BATF employee was among the 168 killed in the bombing.
February 11, 1997
Web Page: http://www.aci.net/kalliste/
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defender
Joined: 27 Oct 2000
Posts: 1113
Location: Level 64 |
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Fri May 11, 2001 9:15 pm
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LWR, in your post over on the MKULTRA thread you wrote;
"Found an interesting tidbit on freerepublic last night. Seems that the government
psychiatrist who examined McVeigh initially was a "Dr. Jolly", i.e., Dr
Louis Jolyan West, was a former Director of MKULTRA. One of the
freerepublic posters noted that "Dr Jolly" had access to McVeigh not only
during and after his "trial" but in the 17 days he was held at an Air Force
Base (Tinkers ?) before being turned over to Denver feds. Remember the
implant that McVeigh claimed and later denied? You don't need implants with
Dr. Jolly around."
Borrowed from another board
There were also reports of MKULTRA doctors involved with Sirhan Sirhan, and school shooters, probably also connected with many other murders nationwide.
It's interesting that you source was FreeRepublic. I was just watching Fox News channel, and one of the reporters quoted FreeRepublic as an Internet source (like they are real clued in and 'hip' to the Internet technology!). The only quotes she made allegedly from a forum on FreeRepublic was from a couple of 'debunkers', as if to say that, just like the TV viewing audience, the Internet world thinks there was no conspiracy in the OK City Bombing!!
It's almost funny to watch them scurrying for position on how to spin this, they keep hammering away that 'McVeigh is guilty', that 'McVeigh wants to die', that 'McVeigh is probably enjoying all of this'...
Not once in all this time have we even heard a statement from him, only hearsay from The Powers That Suck! |
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afraidofsunlight
Joined: 14 Jan 2001
Posts: 98
Location: Balto.,Md. |
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Sat May 12, 2001 12:08 am
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The FBI 'mis-placed" 3,000 page's of document's.
RIGHT.
Sound's like another Reno-Clinton operation.
Funny country.
Who murdered those people at Waco?
[Edited 1 times, lastly by afraidofsunlight on 05-11-2001] |
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defender
Joined: 27 Oct 2000
Posts: 1113
Location: Level 64 |
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Sat May 12, 2001 12:54 am
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Yeah, it's funny that the media/govt. spends so much time with memorials and screaming about the deaths at OKC, but nothing about the murders at Waco. It's okay for feds to murder what the media labeled as a 'cult', but when it's government employees killed, thats a different story.
I've been watching Fox News, MSNBC and CNN most of the day, and it seems like they're trying to create a very hositle climate against McVeigh, like they did with Lee Harvey Oswald before Ruby killed him. If they can keep generating this atmosphere of hate, it won't come as a big surprise if McVeigh should wind up dead by another 'lone assassin' before another trial can take place.
They're only interviewing the %10 of OKC family members who wanted to see the execution, not the other %90 who would rather see total justice and find out if there were other conspirators. |
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Delphi
Joined: 17 Mar 2001
Posts: 1571
Location: S. Bossier, Louisiana |
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Sat May 12, 2001 4:03 am
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I can see it in his eyes, MacVeighs brain has been "fried" one way or another....I don't even think he did it at all...There is a store security tape of him elsewhere...even so, You're probably right, someone is gonna neutralize him with extreme prejudice...I hope not. I never thought about the Waco kids and MK business....could be. Heavens-Gate folks murdered too. Marshall Applewhite looked at a TV camera in the 70's and said right into it, "I'm going to be murdered". What a world! Joanne |
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Swedishoo
Joined: 09 Aug 2000
Posts: 429
Location: NC |
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Sat May 12, 2001 5:06 am
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This has bothered me from the begining.
I believe McVeigh was/is the patsy-boy. I have felt that way from day one.
The Columbine shooting was a tragedy farce as well. Other children from that school saw grown men (not teen-size) in black jumpsuits running around the place before the event ever happened, and that they saw one of them do the shooting, not the kid.
The Skolnick Report on the OK Bombing is good reading for those wanting to see the bigger picture.
Christy
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Swedishoo on 05-11-2001] |
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defender
Joined: 27 Oct 2000
Posts: 1113
Location: Level 64 |
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Sun May 13, 2001 1:52 pm
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Swedishoo,
That source you mention may be a better source, for truth about OKC bombing. Skolnicks research seems to make sense. The Pentagon source I posted could just as easily be more disinfo in regards to that militia they mention. I know that 'someone', either ATF/FBI (Dept of 'Justice') set up their own 'Viper Militia' in AZ a few years ago, as another kind of COINTELPRO operation.
This 'Aryan Republican Army' from the Pentagon source sounds like it may be another contrived 'Viper Militia' aimed at destroying the militia movement?
We could even have a separate forum on suppressed info about Columbine! Where does it end?
[Edited 1 times, lastly by defender on 05-13-2001] |
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David
Joined: 20 Oct 2000
Posts: 1381
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Sun May 13, 2001 4:42 pm
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Don't count on Skolnick, I have contacted him about reading the info on this site and taking a part by doing an article. No response, not a good subject. Call the Pres a murderer and thief but ignore chemtrails. About right. |
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defender
Joined: 27 Oct 2000
Posts: 1113
Location: Level 64 |
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Sun May 13, 2001 9:54 pm
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I never heard that David, never know. One thing I'm sure about is that McVeigh didn't act alone. The spin looks like it may be aimed at reviving the hunt for militias. TPTB may use this as an excuse for more paramilitary $$$ and crackdown on 2nd Ammendment supporters?
But the good news I think is that this shows there are whistleblowers in the FBI. Also that there were something like reports from 41 different FBI offices among the documents that TPTB tried to suppress. So the suppression may come from that relatively small group of the powers that suck in the 'justice' dept.
Unanswered Questions in the OKCity Bombing;
http://apfn.org/THEWINDS/archive/war/a121296c.html
* Was a single bomb responsible for the enormous damage to the steel reinforced building?
* Were agents of the ATF who worked in the building forewarned not to report to work that morning?
* Was the Oklahoma City Fire Department given advance warning of a terrorist attack immediately before the explosion?
* Why were Bomb Squad Units seen in the immediate vicinity of the Federal Building just prior to the blast?
* Why did officials ignore a very explicit warning of the bombing given to them by a federal informant?
* Why was the Federal Building so hurriedly destroyed and the site bull- dozed, before a complete independent investigation could be conducted?
*Single bomb theory: Brigadier General Breton K. Partin (USAF, retired) states, "From all the evidence I have seen in the published material, I can say with a high level of confidence that the damage pattern on the reinforced concrete superstructure could not possibly have been attained from the single truck bomb."
In a 23-page report on the bomb damage, Partin asserts that there is "irrefutable evidence that at least four demolition charges were set off at four critical columns of the reinforced concrete structure."
The first video pictures of the disaster show two large plumes of smoke, one rising from the crater area in the street, the other coming from the center of the federal building. Two separate and independent seismograph records both show two events (blasts) occurred, separated by a 10-second interval.
* ATF agents forewarned: Oklahoma City television station KFOR conducted interviews with three witnesses, all of whom attested that ATF agents admitted to them to being tipped in advance to the bombing; they had been warned on their pagers not to come in to work that day.
* Fire Department forewarned: the grandfather of two of the children killed in the blast had heard reports of FBI advance warning to the Oklahoma City Fire Department. He approached the Assistant Chief who denied the report. The man walked down the hall to the office of the chief dispatcher asking the same question. This time the answer was "YES," they had received a message from the FBI on the Friday before the bombing that they should be on alert. When told of the Assistant Chief's denial of the report, the dispatcher responded, "I'm not going to lie for anybody, a lot of people don't want to get involved in this." The matter could be cleared up easily by checking the radio logs for that time period, but the department claims that the tapes for that date had "accidentally" been recorded over.
* Bomb Squad's early arrival: several credible witnesses report seeing bomb squad units in the immediate area of the Federal Building prior to the explosion.
* Informants warning ignored: a Federal informant delivered a very specific warning to U.S. Justice Department officials just days prior to the deadly bombing. The handwritten letter says, "After leaving Denver for what I thought would be a long time, I returned last night because I have specific information that within two weeks a federal building is to be bombed....I would not ignore this specific request for you, personally, to contact me immediately regarding a plot to blow up a federal building." After the bombing took place, a representative from the Justice Department stated that they did not, and still do not, consider the informant to be credible.
* Federal building destroyed and site dozed: contrary to the practices of preserving evidence at the crime scene, officials have leveled the building and dozed the site, thereby effectively destroying critical evidence. (Quotes from the "New American").
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defender
Joined: 27 Oct 2000
Posts: 1113
Location: Level 64 |
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Thu May 17, 2001 8:27 pm
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The media sure is tight-lipped about the survivors lawsuit against the federal government alleging knowledge of the bombing prior to the date and time of the explosion!
1. The Federal Emergency Management Agency's report, Building Performance: Oklahoma City Bombing. This report stated the building damage is equivalent to denotation of 4,000 lbs. TNT (which is equivalent to about 14,920 lbs. Ammonium Nitrate Fuel Oil [ANFO]). This is more than three times the figure given by the FBI for Tim McVeigh's Truck- Bomb (FBI's figure: 4,800 lbs. ANFO).
==========
The focus of this report is on the nine-story portion of the Murrah Building, which incurred significant damage and partial collapse as a result of the April 19, 1995, bombing. The blast was equivalent to the detonation of approximately 4,000 pounds of TNT.
(Downloaded from FEMA web site - [url=http://www.fema.gov/mit/bpat/bpat009.htm)]http://www.fema.gov/mit/bpat/bpat009.htm)[/url]
==========
Bomb ANFO
----------------------------------------------------
4,000 pounds TNT bomb = 14,920 pounds ANFO
----------------------------------------------------
Therefore, there must had been another bomb detonation, and its explosive power should be equivalent to 10,000 lbs. of Ammonium Nitrate Fuel Oil (ANFO).
2. Brigadier General Benton K. Partin (USAF, ret.), former director of the Air Force Armament Technology Laboratory and one of the world's premier explosives and ordnance authorities, found that the ANFO truck-bomb would not be sufficient to achieve the damage observed at the OKC Bombing. He says that demolition charges had to be placed on the columns--and, sure enough, one was found that failed to go off. Furthermore, the dynamite had been found on the side of column.
3. News reports:
According to CNN video-tape on April 19, 95 report, the Oklahoma County Sheriff's Department claims that the large bomb Squad truck with trailer, which was used later that day to remove the unexploded bombs found inside the Murrah Building was outside prior to the bombing because a deputy was using it for "routine errands."
KFOR-TV in Oklahoma City reported that two or more of the bombs found inside were "far larger in magnitude than the first that went off inside the building" (remember that seismic readings measured two blasts). A terrorist expert, Dr. Randall Heather, then spoke, saying, "We have both of the bombs that were defuse at the site and they are being taken apart."
The above two information have proven the existence of other unexploded bombs. However, these unexploded bombs existence have been denied and never mentioned in the trial of OKC Bombing Trial.
Another conspiracy is that some of the LEO knew about the bombing in advance.
(attachment) "Did US Government Know of Oklahoma Bombing in Advance?" by Ian
Goddard _Nexus_ Dec. 1996/Jan 1997 (p. 7)
==========
1. The Portland newspaper the OREGONIAN (20 April '95) stated that Judge Wayne Alley, whose office is right across from the Murrah building, was warned several days prior to the blast by "security specialists" to take "special Precautions". This story has never resurfaced.
2. USA Today (20 April '95) reported that Harvy Weathers, of the Oklahoma City Fire Dept., said that the fire department had received a call from the FBI prior to the bombing, stating that there would be some people entering the city over the weekend". Weathers didn't explain what this meant, but obviously an arm of FBI were to enter the city, at least after the bombing later the next week, to destroy and fabricate evidence. So the question is, how the FBI know this beforehand?
3. Oklahoma State Representative Charles Key has said" that he knows of two witnesses who overheard ATF employees stated that they were warned not come to work the day. Key also points out that bomb squad employees were seen in front of the building at 7:15 am, about two hours prior to the blast. Rep. Key has conducted his own investigation and was so shocked with the evidence he uncovered that he has complied it into a video presentation.
==========
ABC's 20/20 (1/17/97) interviewed eyewitness who saw Oklahoma City Bomb Squad Truck across the street of the Murrah Federal Building shortly before the explosion.
20/20 established, contrary to official denials, that the Oklahoma City Fire Department received a call from the FBI five days before the bombing (04/14/95) warning them that "there were some people coming through town they should be on the look out for."
Perhaps most shocking, the 20/20 investigation discovered that someone had called the Executive Secretariat's Office at the Justice Department in Washington D.C. to report the Murrah Building bombing 24 minutes before the blast. 20/20 quoted on screen the official government document reading:
The Department of Justice ... received a telephone call ... twenty-four minutes prior to the bombing... The caller said, "The federal building in Oklahoma City has just been bombed."
20/20 anchor Tom Jarrel then noted that "no action was apparently taken" by the Justice Department in response to that strange emergency call minutes before the blast.
4. The second blast reading (recorded at the Omniplex Science Museum and Oklahoma Geological Survey Station). The second reading must be caused by another bomb and this fits the facts contained in FEMA's report.
5. Comparing with the tactics of invisible personnel (involved LEO & operatives of surveillance station/system) and the result of who has the most to gain from the OKC Bombing with logical deduction.
Comparing with above information, it has shown that involved law enforcement officers were involved in OKC Bombing deeply.
The following report on the OKC bombing lawsuits have shown the victims (& their relatives) of the Bombing do believe that some federal agencies are responsible for the death and injuries (caused by the bombing).
According to news report, two lawsuits have been filed against federal agencies on the behalf of bombing victims for failing to give warning to victims of the bombing.
In the first lawsuit, attorney Richard Bieder will represent at least 44 victims to sue federal agencies (see detail on CNN news report attachment below).
In the second lawsuit, filed in the District Court of Oklahoma County (4/18/97), O.J. Simpson's defense lawyer Johnnie Cochran will represent over 300 people who suffered losses in the bombing. According to the Associated Press report, more than 300 people joined the lawsuit against the government Agencies.
(attachment) 7 May 98 on CNN Internet Web site
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May 7, 1998 Web posted at: 9:22 p.m. EDT (0122 GMT)
Lawyer: Federal agencies to face lawsuit over OKC bombing
OKLAHOMA CITY (CNN) -- Dozens of victims and survivors of the Oklahoma City bombing plan to file a $3.2 billion lawsuit against five federal agencies for their alleged negligence in not preventing the attack, their attorney said.
The suit will be filed sometime during May in U.S. District Court in Washington, according to David Autry, one of the lawyers representing the plaintiffs.
The lawsuit will contend that the federal government, through informants, should have had enough notice to take more security measures that could have prevented the April 19, 1995, bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building.
The FBI; Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms; General Services Administration; U.S. Marshal's Service; and Federal Protective Service will be named as defendants in the suit, and the $3.2 billion damage claim would give about $20 million to each of the 170 plaintiffs.
The bombing killed 168 people and injured another 500 people.
http://cnn.com/US/9805/07/briefs.pm/okc.bomb.lawsuit/index.html
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RidesTheWind
Joined: 27 Feb 2001
Posts: 1255
Location: The Void |
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Thu May 17, 2001 10:17 pm
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There's a whole section on the bombing towards the end of this article...Enjoy !! http://www.anomalous-images.com/text/
NAZNWO43.TXT
Check back later when I get the link working.
[Edited 2 times, lastly by RidesTheWind on 05-17-2001] |
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