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defender
Joined: 27 Oct 2000
Posts: 1113
Location: Level 64 |
 Sun Nov 25, 2001 6:30 pm
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IZAKOVIC,
I don't mean to be argumentative about the possibility that the flight was sabotaged. My own personal theories usually involve the MANPADS, or Stinger-type hand-held surface-to-air missiles, (some of these have been retro-fitted Russian/Chinese designs to meet performance level of the U.S.-made Stinger, which was, admittedly, originally released by the CIA in Afghanistan during Soviet-Afghan war, thus allowing Warsaw Pact countries the opportunity to copy them!... kind of like how the Clinton Regime released God knows how many military secrets to the Chinese during the past eight years)!
The explanations you present as far as internal sabotage are certainly feasible, and more likely than those lame scenarios proposed by the media puppets, ie: accident/wind turbulence/mechanical failure. And maybe in this case, sabotage was the method chosen as opposed to a SAM. But if Psi-Tech is the source of that information, it may be more likely that they obtained their information directly from the perpertrators than from any Remote Viewing they might claim to have done?
As far as the 'man in uniform' being involved, if there was one, I'd have to disagree that that is any proof of U.S. military involvement. Covert intel groups have as much access (even more) to a 'mission-appropriate' uniform as any legitimate serviceman or officer.
[Edited 2 times, lastly by defender on 11-25-2001] |
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IZAKOVIC
Joined: 09 Jan 2001
Posts: 130
Location: Rijeka, Croatia (Europe) |
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Wed Nov 28, 2001 9:32 pm
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Defender.
For me it is rather difficult to describe the essence of the standpoint from which my, I like to think, more or less complex, reasoning originate.
One of its aspects could be indicated by the fact that up to eleven years ago Croatia was a part of ex-Yugoslavia, at that time the most advanced country outside of the Western Hemisphere and the leader of unaligned nations. Our standard was comparable to that of neighboring West European countries, such as Italy and Austria (where many of our countrymen had lived and worked as renown professionals for decades), we had free top grade education, low unemployment, total social and health security, we have practiced almost total disregard of politics of any kind including our own, and we were free to travel wherever and whenever we wanted to. We did not care much about the both sides in the Cold War drill except that we have thought that, somehow, they all went bananas long time ago. At that time, nobody in Croatia had a gun at home (except hunters), and very few of us considered any kind of career in Yugoslav army (that was esteemed to be the fifth military force in Europe at that time). In 1989 I have decided that I had enough of military reserve maneuvers and announced at the proper place that I will decline any further invitations coming form Yugoslav Army. Interestingly, they did not bother me any more.
Then, starting in 1990, all encompassing, state driven psychological program, inside one single year, turned every single Croatian in a bloodthirsty nationalist warrior (or patriot). Suddenly everybody pulled out 200-2000 or more $ and bought every kind of weapon imaginable. We once again felt like we were Warrior Horsemen (this is the real meaning of the name Croatian) from which, at some time, every major Western European nation and some Huns and Turks has ran in the past.
So we bet the hell out of Yugoslav Army despite all their dangerous hardware, help from the West and some war crimes. It was fun and it was deadly and it was senseless.
Later on I sow that we were the dry run for that what is now going in the US and worldwide.
I see that you have noted that Steven Greer (and Al Martin does it also) puts it nicely:
There exists a shadowy Government with its own Air Force, its own Navy, its own fundraising mechanism, and the ability to pursue its own ideas of the national interest, free from all checks and balances, and free from the law itself.
I think I have PSI-TECH module I and II TRV tapes from 1996. I took them to assess the validity of their technology. Joni Douriff, a PSI-TECH president, sold them to me with a significant discount, because I was from war-devastated Croatia (not mine idea). A noble gesture, a gesture of a true American.
I have mailed the same article to her. It had my US Military supposition included. In RV you do not operate with the everyday meaning of every word (the man in the uniform = which uniform – servicemen, soldier, etc), but with the idea this information presents. That is the point of protocols, to restrict the number of ideas, to define them exactly and to exclude internal dialog. PSI-TECH’s indication is only one that could be interesting to the public at large, because of its source of which many have some opinion  . I have left some other out.
Obviously term US Military should be understand along this same lines, i.e. that other organization that controls almost everything. My point in posting that article was once again the same, US citizens are undergoing heavy psychological programming whose aim is to make them surrender their way of life, their rights and to turn them, basically, in the slaves, and soldiers.
I cannot marvel enough how all of 300.000.000 or more, educated, bright and beautiful US citizens cannot see that succession of all that incredible events (before …. young Kennedy plane crush, flight 800, elections and recount, J. P. Morgan going under, 9-11, Anthrax and now flight 587 …. and more) cannot be coincidence even by the Hollywood standards. For God's sake, plains are falling out of the sky all over NY every other day, for years, every day more frequently.
I am worried for you people over there. We here, in the rest of the world, have been already dispossessed, and you there are the only ones left who are still intact and can make the difference if you want to.
I am behaving like orator here little bit (( , it is my state of mid at this moment. Nothing personal.
And now, here is little more of the same:
From BroJon.com http://www.geocities.com/brojongazette/index.html
Here are some excerpts from the November 24, 2001 BROTHER JONATHAN GAZETTE article
the bottom line .....
THE MYSTERY OF FLIGHT 587 (Part B)
A TERROR ATTACK -- FINAL PROOF
The Phony War in Afghanistan (Part 5B)
in which its editor, Marshall Smith, shows strong new evidence by which he further empowers his previous conclusion that 587 went down because left engine went in reverse trust mode after the take-off.
Quote:
The statement made in the NTSB update of Nov 20 that "The thrust reversers were in a stowed position," is both self-serving and not supported by any data or evidence. Any statements made in an NTSB update are "interim" and are not final until the final report is approved by the head of the investigation team, which will be in many months or more, long after most people have forgotten about the Flight 587 accident. Thus any statement may be made in an update whether it is true or not.
In the NTSB update section on "Aircraft Structures" it states "...readings off the flight data recorder, show that the trim setting appears to be close to neutral. The aircraft's wing flaps appear to have been retracted at the time of impact, and the landing gear appear to have been stowed, based on both physical evidence and FDR readings." Notice here the phrase is "appear to be,...based on..." but when discussing the thrust reversers in the next section on "Engines" it does not use the phrase "the thrust reversers appear to be in the stowed position, based on..."
Instead, the flat out statement that the "reversers...were stowed" indicates this is a cover-up of the facts. Nobody at the scene, given the severely damaged condition of both engines, could have determined that the reversers were stowed either earlier in the flight or at time of impact. No Flight Data Recorder data is given to support the claim.
Most probably the sheet metal clamshells of the thrust reversers were severely damaged or completely torn off when the engines impacted the ground, so any statement about the condition of the thrust reversers in flight would need to be made up.
About the direction of the breaking off of the tail, the failure of the carbon composite attachment points of the tail would clearly show in which direction the assembly was torn. One of the NTSB photos shows the two aft attachment points and one of the center attachment points. In Photo 9 the front of the plane is toward the upper right of the picture. The lower attachment point in the photo is on the right side of the tail. In the left center and upper middle of the photo are the left aft attachment point and the left center attachment point on the left side of the tail.
The importance of this photo is that both left side attachment points still have remnants of the carbon composite tail assembly with pieces of the aluminum vertical stabilizer skin still bolted to the plane, while the right attachment point has been completely torn away with only the bare bolt remaining. If there had been a strong force or blast of air from the right side of the plane then the forces on the attachment points would be upward or in tension on the right side of the tail and downward or in compression on the left side of the tail. Most materials, including the carbon composites are much stronger in compression than they are in tension. Therefore, with a blast of wind from the right, the attachments in tension on the right side of the tail would fail first. As soon as that happens the whole vertical stabilizer or tail would bend over to the left and what would break off on the left side would be the weaker bent over aluminum tail skin which is still visible with the jagged aluminum edges of both left side attachment points, as shown in the photo. Thus the vertical stabilizer was hit by a blast of wind from the right and broke over to the left. This supports the notion that a flat horizontal spin to the left, with the nose going to the left, and the tail whipping to the right, produced a strong blast of wind on the tail from the right.
This photo in conjunction with the Flight Data Recorder information can prove one major piece of evidence. Was the source of the blast of wind which blew the tail off the plane external or internal. An external blast of wind coming from the right as from wake turbulence, would knock the tail off to the left as shown in the photo, but like a weather vane in the wind, the blast of wind would cause the plane to turn into the wind or to the right. But the FDR data shows the plane made a sudden rotation to the left not the right. The only possible conclusion is that the force of the wind was internally caused and not due to any external forces such as wake turbulence. This completely excludes the external wake turbulence theory as the cause of the loss of the tail and then both engines.
Instead the tail attachment points shown in Photo 9 along with the FDR data showing the sudden rotation to the left indicates that the only possible cause was a horizontal flat spin to the left which created a force on the tail coming from the right. If the plane had simply turned or rolled to the left and not rotated about its center of gravity in a flat spin to the left, the sideways force on the tail would be minimal. The only possible conclusion based on Photo 9 and the FDR data is that the plane entered a leftward flat horizontal spin as it slowed to the stall point.
There are only two possible ways for a plane to enter a horizontal flat spin. First, would be the pilot purposely slowing the plane down and then at the stall point reducing the power on the left engine and increasing the power on the right engine and applying full left rudder. If some "mad" pilot had done this, then those motions of the controls would show up in the FDR data, and there would definitely be some loud comments in the Cockpit Voice Recorder reflecting a reaction to the pilot's strange behavior. Neither the FDR or CVR show such pilot actions or show the possibility that the cause of the spin could be pilot or crew error, or "mad pilot syndrome."
The second possible cause for an internal force creating a blast of wind to tear off the tail to the left as shown in the photo, is for the left thrust reverser to actuate during flight and cause a rapid rotation of the plane about its center of gravity to the left. This is supported by the FDR data showing a strong rotation to the left just as the plane starts to rapidly drop downward in a stall and as the tail is ripped off to the left. Conclusion, the only possible cause for the crash would be the in-flight actuation of the left thrust reverser.
…. End quote.
Article includes above-mentioned images that in every detail support Mr. Smith’s reasoning. Furthermore, Mr. Smith’s analysis that shows why the internal force (that is momentum of the airframe induced by the left engine reverse push) could be the only cause that broke the tail fin free, nicely explains why on the left tail fin attachment point there is a chunk of it left.
Warmest regards to all.
11-28-2001
IZAKOVIC http://www.deepspace4.com
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3T3L1
Joined: 08 Mar 2001
Posts: 1344
Location: Lubbock, Texas |
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Fri Jan 18, 2002 6:18 pm
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I just heard a possible explanation for this crash from Roger Hedgecock on the Rush Limbaugh program. The crash may have been the result of Shoe Bomber #1. According to Hedgecock, both shoe bombers were sitting in Seat 19A, the location in an Airbus 300 where the wing attaches to the body of the plane.
EDIT: The December 22, 2001 American Airlines Flight 63 out of Paris (the one Richard Reid was on) was a Boeing 767, not an Airbus A300, so I'm not sure whether Hedgecock's Seat 19A reference was applicable to both types of planes or just to one of them.
[Edited 2 times, lastly by 3T3L1 on 01-20-2002] |
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3T3L1
Joined: 08 Mar 2001
Posts: 1344
Location: Lubbock, Texas |
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Mon Jan 21, 2002 1:30 am
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For two days I have been trying to figure out where Rodge Hedgecock might've gotten the story about American Airlines Flight 587 being brought down by a shoe bomber. I still don't know, but cydoniaquest over at the debunkers' site has found this at WorldNetDaily.com:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26099
quote:
Was Richard Reid, the Briton indicted this week on charges of attempted murder -- after failing to blow up American Airlines Flight 63 from Paris to Miami on Dec. 22 -- the first shoe bomber?
DEBKA-Net-Weekly reports a spreading conviction among aviation and counter-terror experts that he was Shoe Bomber No. 2, and that American Airlines Flight 587 was brought down 40 days earlier over Queens, N.Y., by Shoe Bomber No. 1.
Their argument springs from a simple question: Why did not Reid simply lock himself in the bathroom and ignite the fuse to the bomb without risk of interference?
The answer is that he was instructed to position himself in window seat No. A 19, next to where the wing attaches to the body of the plane to follow the example of Shoe Bomber No. 1.
A bomb exploding in this position would allow the plastic explosive to erupt through the wall of the cabin and rupture the wing where jet fuel is stored. This position was also close to the center fuel tank in the body of the plane between the wings. If Reid had not been wrestled down by the flight attendants and passengers, the explosives in his shoes would have ripped a hole in the side of the plane and then ignited the fuel stored in the wing.
This, according to DEBKA-Net-Weekly’s sources, is precisely what happened on the AA flight 587 Airbus bound for Santo Domingo, 40 days previously, with tragic consequences. All 255 passengers and crew died, as well as five people on the ground.
Did anybody else notice this: This position was also close to the center fuel tank in the body of the plane between the wings.
TWA Flight 800 was a Boeing 737 which took off from JFK. It was thought to have crashed due to an explosion in its center fuel tank.
[Edited 2 times, lastly by 3T3L1 on 01-20-2002] |
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Thermit
Joined: 08 Jul 2000
Posts: 3136
Location: Texas |
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Sun Jan 27, 2002 5:35 pm
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quote:
Frustrated investigators looking into the crash of American Airlines Flight 587 have an important new piece of evidence. Government sources tell Time that analysts at the National Transportation Safety Board last week got their first look at a remarkable videotape of the deadly accident. Recorded by a surveillance camera at a New York City area tollbooth, the tape captures nearly the entire catastrophe that sent the Airbus A300 crashing into a residential neighborhood in Queens less than 3 min. after takeoff from John F. Kennedy International Airport on Nov. 12
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,197613,00.html |
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