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Chem11
Joined: 21 Apr 2001
Posts: 1386
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 Tue Aug 20, 2002 8:16 pm
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quote:
kent state was a bunch of radical leftists...we're better off without them...
I used to love this country. Not our corrupted political process or the military/industrial complex that continually subverts it, but the people. The land.
After reading this latest heartfelt piece of commentary from Greg, I have reached a conclusion; there are people in this nation whom I am deeply ashamed to call my countrymen. Murderous, hate-filled and small-minded. The archtype of 'the Ugly American'.
These poorly educated and morally bankrupt individuals, while not in the majority, seem to typify our national character in post-911 America. It's an embarrasmment. A disgrace. And anyone that disagrees with their rhetoric is in danger of a military execution.
On the question: "Why did you open fire?", a multitude of explanations were given. Some Guardsmen claimed they had been ordered to shoot, others said they started firing their arms when their peers opened fire... But no Guardsmen reported any injuries after the shootings and, according to the FBI report, all but a very few students were too far away to be able to throw stones at the soldiers. Furthermore, of the 13 students who were hit by bullets, "all but four [were hit] in the back or side."
Not many of the soldiers were prepared to say anything about the shootings to the press. One soldier told a Time magazine`s reporter: "I felt like I`d just had an order to clean up a latrine". In Neewsweek, May 18, 1970 a Guardsman is quoted: "It`s about time we showed the bastards who`s in charge."
http://www.stud.hum.ku.dk/rikkebj/kentframe.htm
People like theseeker simply won't be happy until more american children are executed by more gun-wielding sociopaths. Only then will they feel that there views have been somehow validated by the spilling of innoncent young men and womens' blood.
Killing innocent Afghani and Palestinian children simply isn't enough to quench the irrational and all consumuing hatred that burns in their blackened hearts. We've long ago killed more Afghanis than the Saudi Terror Pilots are acused of killing, so even a primitive revenge instinct doesn't explain this bloodthirsty sicnkess that infects the minds of people like theseeker.
I wish I could tell you that people like him are few and far between, but they are not. Add to that the peope who simply look the other way when confronted with these psuedo-patriotic murderous musings in everday life (or worse yet, their apologists... you know who you are) and it becomes clear that the American communal psyche is dangling it toes over irrecoverable psychopathology.
People, and national psychology, can reach a point where they can not be rehabilitated. National Socialist Germany would be one example. The Roman Empire another.
I fear that Amerika is quickly reaching the point of no return, as well. I have no great desire to see this country reduced to the state of post-war Berlin or Hiroshima. And I don't know that even waiting another two-years to see what happens would be advisable. But I'll tell you right now, if The Fuhrer steals the presidency against the wishes of the majority of the american people again in 2004, I will be on that boat.
I will revoke my citizenship, tear up my well-nigh worthless Social Security card and reside in a country where I (or my children) can voice their opinion without having to worry about being murdered by government death squads and having my 'countrymen' rejoice in the execution three decades later.
And when people like theseeker are at the business end of their darkest homosexual rape fantasies within the confines of a federal prison, because the DOJ has decided to take the gloves off on file-swappers, I may even protest their incarceration as well.
Whether they like it or not.
[Edited 3 times, lastly by Chem11 on 08-20-2002] |
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theseeker
Joined: 25 Jul 2000
Posts: 3403
Location: Damnit...I'm a doctor jim |
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Tue Aug 20, 2002 8:37 pm
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so dave, it's ok for these students, pillars of the community to burn down buildings and all the social carnage that came from hippies...and not ok for people in charge to take control ?...anarchy is not freedom, or liberty...I expected a little more from you dave...
...nobody won in that deal...and if your not too much of a dolt (which I wonder) you can see regarding this incident in history that you should not take up arms against your fellow man...unless your prepared to die...
here's who was most likely the "culprit" regarding the shootings....
august 3rd 1973
Assistant Attorney General J. Stanley Pottinger announces that the Justice Department will officially conduct a new inquiry. Senator Birch Bayh follows Pottinger's announcement by releasing a letter he received from one of the Guard's company commanders. On the basis of that letter Bayh charges that armed FBI informant Terry Norman may have been "the fatal catalyst" for the tragedy
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Swamp Gas
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 4254
Location: On a Hill in the Lowlands |
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Tue Aug 20, 2002 9:51 pm
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Seeker,
You left something out:
"1974
March 28 The federal grand jury indicts eight Guardsmen on charges they deprived the students of their rights to due process. No conspiracy is alleged, and no indictment is returned against Terry Norman or any Guard officers.
April 17 The U.S. Supreme Court overturns a series of lower court decisions dismissing civil damage suits filed by the parents of the dead students and the nine surviving victims. The ruling paves the way for a civil trial to be held after the criminal proceedings."
So, again YOUR wonderful, kind, fair government rules in favor of death and destruction.
WHat would you have done in Nazi Germany in the 1930's? They had the same attitude toward protestors. Stomp, jail, club, and kill. Would you have protested? or would you have obeyed The Fuhrer? After all, he was voted in with 90% majority in 1934. Flags flying everywhere. Communists and Jews were said to have burned down the Reichstag (even though The Nazis did). |
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Chem11
Joined: 21 Apr 2001
Posts: 1386
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Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:03 pm
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quote:
you should not take up arms against your fellow man...unless your prepared to die...
I was unaware that any of the student protesters were armed. Perhaps you would be kind enough to provide supporting documentation for this assertion...
It's attitudes that get people killed. And an undercover agent provacateur from the FBI can only light the fuse on a stupid bomb if it already exists in the sub-standard minds of the people with their fingers on the trigger. Perhaps you missed this part. It makes your own incindiary rhetoric pale in comparison. The killers speak:
One soldier told a Time magazine`s reporter: "I felt like I`d just had an order to clean up a latrine". In Neewsweek (sic), May 18, 1970 a Guardsman is quoted: "It`s about time we showed the bastards who`s in charge".
From this we can deduce that the triggermen:
A) Believed that they are in charge (a common problem among the warrior class, put a gun in his hot little hands and suddenly your average social reject believes himself to be the focus of all dark forces in the universe)
B) Gave no more thought to following orders to kill college co-eds than they would to cleaning a toilet. So much for the arguement that people in uniform will likely disobey amoral or uncostitutional orders. They'll blow your friggin' head off and show absolutely no remorse for their sins. They'll make little quips to the media likening your bloated corpse to a filthy urinal. This is not a matter up for debate. It's a part of history.
Everyone I know who served in that war, and the very man who masterminded it and sold it to the American people ( Robert McNamara) describe it as a 'horrible mistake'. After the fact, when it doesn't mean a damn thing.
Those students did their best to make a difference when there was time to actually save lives (many of them American)and they were murdered for their efforts.
And you dare to say we're better off without them? These people were heroes, Greg. They stood up for what they believed was right, they paid the ultimate price and history has proven their cause to be just.
And they didn't need a goddamn rifle (or f-16) and a f_cked up attitude to do it.
ALISON KRAUSE
JEFFREY MILLER
SANDRA SCHEUER
WILLIAM SCHROEDER
Better men and women than you I, Greg. I don't see you in Afghansitan with a notch in your rifle for every confirmed civillian kill and I haven't been anywhere near a demonstration since WTO. If a bunch of redneck neo-fascists and chickenhawks want to engage the rest of the world in a never-ending war to prop up the shares of defense contractors, so be it.
I'll do the same damn thing anyone with a half of a brain and the means to do so did in Germany circa 1939... get the hell out.
Those who don't learn from history are doomed...
http://archives.obs-us.com/obs/english/books/mcnamara/top.htm
[Edited 2 times, lastly by Chem11 on 08-20-2002] |
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theseeker
Joined: 25 Jul 2000
Posts: 3403
Location: Damnit...I'm a doctor jim |
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Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:52 pm
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dave...oh dave...to burn down property is as much a weapon as a gun is...or as the homocide bombers are these days or airplanes...violence is just that no matter how many adjectives you use to describe it...if you choose to take in violence, you must prepare for the ultimate result...
the protesters or I should say the social antagonists, back then malcom x abbey hoffman, hayden and fonda...encouraged violent protest of people and guess what...they got what they got and I'm not crying for them...not one damn bit...
to me it all comes down to being responsible for one's actions...and the consequences there of....
we'll just have to agree to dis-agree on this dave...
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Chem11
Joined: 21 Apr 2001
Posts: 1386
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Wed Aug 21, 2002 1:10 am
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You... you slanderous, ignorant cow! There's not one shred of evidence that the kids that were shot down in cold blood had anything to do with burning that ROTC office. NONE. And yet you justify their murders because someone else was involved in an arson? Your insane! And since WHEN was arson punishable by death by firing squad? There's a legal precedent in this country called due process. Look into it sometime when you get done libeling dead college students and sluicing yourself down in innocent blood.
Bet you'd change your tune if that was your daughter or G/F that took a bullet to the head.
Take a good look, folks. This is what happens when you split your time between decent folk and the haters at the hoaxy board. Madness!
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Chem11 on 08-20-2002] |
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PacerLJ35
Joined: 18 Apr 2002
Posts: 456
Location: Millbrook, AL, USA |
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Wed Aug 21, 2002 2:35 am
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"... I don't see you in Afghansitan with a notch in your rifle for every confirmed civillian kill..."
Speaking of "slanderous" words, Chem. Show me one article...one picture of soldiers showing off these alleged "notches" that they are proudly killing civilians. Oh, guess what...you can't. That's simply your made-up allegation, because let's be honest Chem...you view people who wear the uniform as belonging to one of two mindsets:
1. Bloodthirsty baby killers
2. Ignorant idiots that blindly wave the flag
You hold military service personnel in the highest contempt. It's obvious from your posts.
When the sister unit to my Medevac unit deployed to Honduras, they did so in the wake of Hurrican Mitch. Good friends of mine called back saying that it sucked...not because Honduras was poor, but because it reeked of dead bodies bloated in the hot sun. They spent the first few months flying food, water and essential equipment to the isolated villages because the roads were wiped out. Units that had already been on the scene earlier spent weeks pulling survivors and bodies from mud slides. Then the USA shipped military engineers over by the plane load. They rebuilt many roads, schools and other infrastructure lost in the devastating floods. The 1-244th Aviation Battalion spent the remainder of their 9 month deployment (away from friends and family) ferrying them all over the country.
While they were there, the US Army soldiers at Soto Cano Air Base started a tradition of hosting picnics and dinners for the local orphans, many of whom had lost their parents in the recent flooding. When Honduras was hit again by another Hurricane, the Army again helped in rescue efforts and rebuilding efforts, although the 1st of the 244th Aviation had already returned to it's home in New Orleans.
Let's face the facts, Chem. You get your image of soldiers from "alternative" newspapers and radicals. Your experience with military people is limited to what you read, not what you actually experience in person.
You're not a whole lot different from, say, my sister-in-law who actually thought that if I made a mistake at work, my boss would yell at me and make me do push-ups. Riiiight. But since all she ever experienced was Hollywood movies and news, she really had no idea what the military was like.
Yes, it is all about attitudes. Not being presumptuous is a virtue, which you do not possess when it comes to judging military personnel. Your divisive, hatred-filled opinion certainly will not help reach your "goal" of liberty and freedom. Unless you only want liberty and freedom in narrowly defined terms according to Chem11. |
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theseeker
Joined: 25 Jul 2000
Posts: 3403
Location: Damnit...I'm a doctor jim |
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Wed Aug 21, 2002 2:48 am
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hey chem..."let's agree to dis-agree" means I don't want to f'n talk anymore...K ?
let's make this clear, the protesters knew the govenor called out the guard the day before...the protesters went there anyway...the s!@# was a tinderbox...something had to give and it did...
sorry for your loss if that's what your implying by "G/F"....
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Chem11
Joined: 21 Apr 2001
Posts: 1386
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Wed Aug 21, 2002 3:09 am
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Sorry Pacer, you're on my ignore list... I got as far you're disingenuos, literal intepretation of "notches in your rifle" (ingoring or somehow ignorant of the symbolistic meaning thereof) and skipped the rest of your post. This jumped out at me because of spacing, unfortunately:
quote:
You hold military service personnel in the highest contempt.
A typically un-informed opinion from a uniquely ignorant individual (I use the term loosely). One of Mega's moderators happens to be ex-military. He is an articulate, open minded and talented researcher. It's the little tin-soldiers who frequent these boards for the sole purpose of spreading transparent disinformation that I hold in contempt; this means you.
I can only assume the rest of your post contains similar mis-characterizations and trademark Pacer deceptions, hence my lack of interest.
You don't like it, then go get a rifle and gun me down. Then tell Time magazine that it wasn't any different than following orders to clean a latrine.
There are two kinds of people in this world, Pacer. Those who acquire it by developing it within themselves and those who are satisfied with having it doled out to them by their 'superiors'. It isn't hard to discern which of us is his own man and which is chattel.
Oppono astos,
Chem11
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Chem11 on 08-20-2002] |
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PacerLJ35
Joined: 18 Apr 2002
Posts: 456
Location: Millbrook, AL, USA |
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Wed Aug 21, 2002 3:54 am
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"I got as far you're disingenuos, literal intepretation of 'notches in your rifle' (ingoring or somehow ignorant of the symbolistic meaning thereof)"
Characterizing US soldiers as having "notches" (ie suggesting that they are somehow proud) in their weapons for murdering civilians can only be interpreted as a negative insult. Don't try to walk out of that one by telling me that I simply can't understand your symbolic poetry.
"A typically un-informed opinion from a uniquely ignorant individual (I use the term loosely)."
I gather my opinions based on what you post. Nearly every reference you've mentioned regarding military personnel has been a negative one. Your reference to the Mega moderator being ex-military is your token attempt to prove to everyone that indeed you don't hold military personnel in contempt...that is, you won't if they share your hatred for their superiors.
"It's the little tin-soldiers who frequent these boards for the sole purpose of spreading transparent disinformation that I hold in contempt; this means you."
Transparent, eh. So all my observations regarding flight patterns, aircraft systems, and other info is "transparent". Flaming rhetoric eminating from your keyboard is what's transparent, Chem. You add very little to discussions, but you're more than generous with the insulting phrases, put-downs and generalizations.
"I can only assume the rest of your post contains similar mis-characterizations and trademark Pacer deceptions, hence my lack of interest."
For someone who just got off their soapbox about ignorance, you sure do rush to double back on your words. I READ posts. I don't take bits and pieces and "assume" what the other person is saying. Very intellectual...
"You don't like it, then go get a rifle and gun me down. Then tell Time magazine that it wasn't any different than following orders to clean a latrine."
I'm sure you'd like for me to resort to threats, then you can go run to your Mega friends and show them how righteous you are. You could be Mega's resident martyr.
I guess you've also "assumed" that military personnel follow orders to the letter, and that none of them have heard of the phrase "illegal order"....or the fact that they could be prosecuted for following an illegal order. But hey, in Chem11-world, the American soldiers have heard none of this, for they obey dilligently for their masters...unless your an ex-military moderator on the Mega board.
"There are two kinds of people in this world, Pacer. Those who acquire it by developing it within themselves and those who are satisfied with having it doled out to them by their 'superiors'."
My superiors aren't much different than any other civilian boss in that regard. If your boss (if you have one) would tell you to steal money, would you do it? No, of course not. Ditto for mine. If they told me to commit a crime, I'm no more obligated to carry it out than you are. Again, drawing on your posts, you ARE pretty uninformed about military personnel...going with that Hollywood stereotype that we simply snap our heels when our commander barks. Doesn't work that way, except in movies and radical rhetoric.
"It isn't hard to discern which of us is his own man and which is chattel. "
That's only if you're arrogant enough to claim such a thing.
____________________________________________
"Nobility isn't about being better than your fellow man; nobility is about being better than your former self"- paraphrased from Radiohead.
Ipsa scientia potestas est
Libenter homines id quod volunt credunt
[Edited 1 times, lastly by PacerLJ35 on 08-20-2002] |
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Chem11
Joined: 21 Apr 2001
Posts: 1386
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Wed Aug 21, 2002 4:58 am
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Mendacem oportet esse memorem. Omnia iam fient fieri quae posse..negabam
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Chem11 on 08-20-2002] |
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David
Joined: 20 Oct 2000
Posts: 1381
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Wed Aug 21, 2002 4:17 pm
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Edited for content.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by David on 08-21-2002] |
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