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Swamp Gas
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 4254
Location: On a Hill in the Lowlands |
 Fri Sep 26, 2003 5:25 pm
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Now back to subject, and enough nonsense.
New York Times, November 29, 2001
THE SITE
Engineers Suspect Diesel Fuel in Collapse of 7 World Trade Center
By JAMES GLANZ
Almost lost in the chaos of the collapse of the World Trade Center is a mystery that under normal circumstances would probably have captured the attention of the city and the world. That mystery is the collapse of a nearby 47-story, two-million-square-foot building seven hours after flaming debris from the towers rained down on it, igniting what became an out-of-control fire.
Engineers and other experts, who quickly came to understand how hurtling airplanes and burning jet fuel had helped bring down the main towers, were for weeks still stunned by what had happened to 7 World Trade Center. That building had housed, among other things, the mayor's emergency command bunker. It tumbled to its knees shortly after 5:20 on the ugly evening of Sept. 11.
The building had suffered mightily from the fire that raged in it, and it had been wounded by the flying beams falling off the towers. But experts said no building like it, a modern, steel-reinforced high-rise, had ever collapsed because of an uncontrolled fire, and engineers have been trying to figure out exactly what happened and whether they should be worried about other buildings like it around the country.
As engineers and scientists struggle to explain the collapse of 7 World Trade Center, they have begun considering whether a type of fuel that was inside the building all along created intensely hot fires like those in the towers: diesel fuel, thousands of gallons of it, intended to run electricity generators in a power failure.
One tank holding 6,000 gallons of fuel was in the building to provide power to the command bunker on the 23rd floor. Another set of four tanks holding as much as 36,000 gallons were just below ground on the building's southwest side for generators that served some of the other tenants.
Engineers and other experts have already uncovered evidence at the collapse site suggesting that some type of fuel played a significant role in the building's demise, but they expect to spend months piecing together the picture of what remains a disturbing puzzle.
"Even though Building 7 didn't get much attention in the media immediately, within the structural engineering community, it's considered to be much more important to understand," said William F. Baker, a partner in charge of structural engineering at the architectural firm Skidmore, Owings & Merrill. "They say, `We know what happened at 1 and 2, but why did 7 come down?' "
Engineers said that here and across the country, diesel-powered generators are used in buildings like hospitals and trading houses, where avoiding power outages is crucial. Partly for that reason, Jonathan Barnett said, a definitive answer to the question of what happened in 7 World Trade Center is perhaps the most important question facing investigators.
"It's just like when you investigate a plane crash," said Dr. Barnett, a professor of fire protection engineering at the Worcester Polytechnic Institute. "If we find a weakness in the building or a deficiency in the building that causes that collapse, we then want to find that weakness in other buildings and fix it."
In many ways, 7 World Trade Center, built and owned by Silverstein Properties, was structurally similar to its towering cousins across Vesey Street to the south. The weight of the building was supported by a relatively tight cluster of steel columns around the center of each floor and a palisade of columns around the outside, in the building's facade.
Sprayed on the steel, almost like imitation snow in holiday decorations, was a layer of fireproofing material, generally less than an inch thick. Although the fireproofing was intended to withstand ordinary fires for at least two hours, experts said buildings the size of 7 World Trade Center that are treated with such coatings have never collapsed in a fire of any duration.
Most of three other buildings in the complex, 4, 5 and 6 World Trade, stood despite suffering damage of all kinds, including fire.
Still, experts concede, in a hellish day, 7 World Trade might have sustained structural injuries never envisioned in fire codes. That day began with flaming pieces of steel and aluminum and, horribly, human bodies raining around the building.
With the collapse of both towers by 10:30 a.m., larger pieces of the twin towers had smashed parts of 7 World Trade and set whole clusters of floors ablaze. An hour later, the Fire Department was forced to abandon its last efforts to save the building as it burned like a giant torch. It fell in the late afternoon, hampering rescue efforts and hurling its beams into the ground like red-hot spears.
Within the building, the diesel tanks were surrounded by fireproofed enclosures. But some experts said that like the jet fuel in the twin towers, the diesel fuel could have played a role in the collapse of 7 World Trade.
"If the enclosures were damaged, then yes, this would be enough fuel to explain why the building collapsed," Dr. Barnett said.
Dr. Barnett and Mr. Baker are part of an assessment team organized by the American Society of Civil Engineers and the Federal Emergency Management Agency to examine the performance of several buildings during the attacks. If further studies of the debris confirm the findings of extremely high temperature, Dr. Barnett said, "the smoking gun would be the fuel."
Others experts agreed that the diesel fuel could have speeded the collapse, but said the building might have met the same fate simply because of how long it burned.
"The fuel absolutely could be a factor," said Silvian Marcus, executive vice president for the Cantor Seinuk Group and a structural engineer involved in the original design of the building, which was completed in 1987. But he added, "The tanks may have accelerated the collapse, but did not cause the collapse."
Because of those doubts, engineers hold open the possibility that the collapse had other explanations, like damage caused by falling debris or another source of heat.
The fuel tanks were not the only highly flammable materials in the building. But while some engineers have speculated that a high-pressure gas main ruptured and caught fire, there was none in the area, said David Davidowitz, vice president of gas engineering at Consolidated Edison. The building was served only by a four-inch, low-pressure line for the building's cafeteria, Mr. Davidowitz said.
The mayor's command bunker, built in 1998, included electrical generators on the seventh floor, where there was a small fuel tank, said Jerome M. Hauer, director of the mayor's Office of Emergency Management from 1996 to 2000. That tank was fed by a tank containing thousands of gallons of diesel fuel on a lower floor, he said.
Francis E. McCarton, a spokesman for the emergency management office, confirmed that assessment. "We did have a diesel tank in the facility," he said. "Yes, it was used for our generating system."
The manager of the building when it collapsed, Walter Weems, said the larger tank sat on a steel-and-concrete pedestal on the second floor and held 6,000 gallons of diesel fuel. He said an even larger cache, four tanks containing a total of 36,000 gallons of diesel fuel, sat just below ground level in the loading dock near the southwest corner of the building.
"I'm sure that with enough heat it would have burned," Mr. Hauer said of the diesel. "The question is whether the collapse caused the tank to rupture, or whether the material hitting the building caused the tank to rupture and enhance the fire."
Falling debris also caused major structural damage to the building, which soon began burning on multiple floors, said Francis X. Gribbon, a spokesman for the Fire Department. By 11:30 a.m., the fire commander in charge of that area, Assistant Chief Frank Fellini, ordered firefighters away from it for safety reasons.
A combination of an uncontrolled fire and the structural damage might have been able to bring the building down, some engineers said. But that would not explain steel members in the debris pile that appear to have been partly evaporated in extraordinarily high temperatures, Dr. Barnett said.
"Any structure anywhere in the world, if you put it in these conditions, it will not stand," Mr. Marcus said. "The buildings are not designed to be a torch."
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the professor
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 1164
Location: heartland USA |
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Fri Sep 26, 2003 11:32 pm
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Quoting an ass
Meanwhile us socialists, humanists, liberals, pagans, and peaceniks are here to stay. We pre-date fundamentalists. Better get used to us. Your Inquisitions and Witch Hunts didn't deter us, and your new Tomas de Torquemada, Ashcroft, won't do it either.
Strike a chord with you there, Professor Jimmy Swaggart?
You are too funny, I like how you accuse me of every right wing conspiracy on me alone, and yet you think you know where I stand on government and religions and so forth but yet you have no clue! You and your kind can do nothing other than label and accuse and at the same time you make yourself look entirely foolish. Your tolerance equals your ignorance. My America is the kind that harbors such idiots as yourself because freedom is something for which alot have died for and may I even include a many religous types of vets. You should be ashamed of yourself for blaming others on the misleading and outright lying that you and your socialist movement have brought upon us. Hopefully someday this will sink in that thick skull of yours but I doubt it. |
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shatoga
Joined: 23 Nov 2002
Posts: 1291
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Sat Sep 27, 2003 2:57 am
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'actually,
the desire to impose one's will on others;
"conservatism"
Is probably as old as humanity.
There will always be those who choose
to build themselves up by tearing others down.
That is the basic tenent of conservatism.
That irrational belief: "I'm better than you are." is the basis of conservatism.
that we are all just people;
trying to feed our families,
is the truth that gives the lie to every conservative belief.
they think they are superior to everyone else.
that only 'they' respect law and order...
that only 'they' know what is right and good
that 'they' support a travesty of all which they claim to hold as decent and honerable/
never enters their thought controlled minds.
Praise bush/
Love bush/
that is the mantra of those who are so deluded they are unable to see the truth in front of their eyes.
Their cult controls their minds.
Pity them.
We cannot argue with them.
they believe only lies from their own side.
Truth from anyone else is ignored.
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the professor
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 1164
Location: heartland USA |
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Sat Sep 27, 2003 3:10 am
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That would probaly depend on one's meaning of truth. |
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Swamp Gas
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 4254
Location: On a Hill in the Lowlands |
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Sat Sep 27, 2003 3:39 am
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quote:
Originally posted by the professor:
[B]You and your kind can do nothing other than label and accuse and at the same time you make yourself look entirely foolish.
And what exactly is "your kind", dipstick?
Looks like you are exposing your Holier-than-thou religious pseudo-superiority again.
Yawn............
[Edited 1 times, lastly by swamp gas on 09-26-2003] |
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the professor
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 1164
Location: heartland USA |
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Sat Sep 27, 2003 4:08 am
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?? |
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the professor
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 1164
Location: heartland USA |
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Sat Sep 27, 2003 5:18 am
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Why do you refer to me in the likings of Swaggert? I've not committed adultary. In fact I don't even preach to any of you but yet get labeled as such. Your bias shows you think christain faith is a fraud. Because one sees abortion as death he's the wicked? I believe in the same God as the founding fathers yet I'm unamerican, and yet you call yourself a constituionalist. I don't know how you can if you can't even respect the moral codes of the founding fathers. I'm sorry it bothers you to see someone who can deal the idiocy of your remarks so easily, I'm trying not to let yourself look entirely insane. |
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Boomer Chick
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 407
Location: Colorado |
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Sat Sep 27, 2003 6:32 am
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White House Faces Crunch Time on 9/11 Files
Marie Cocco
September 25, 2003
Two weeks and counting.
After that, the independent commission investigating the terrorist attack of Sept. 11, 2001, says it is going to blow the whistle. Again.
"We spend a long time on negotiating on access," said former Rep. Lee Hamilton of Indiana, the 9/11 commission co-chairman. "And we have laid down a marker here in which we indicate that we need this information in two weeks' time. So we are approaching a crunch point, I believe."
You may wonder why, two years after the attacks that slaughtered more than 3,000 people and set the United States on a course of indefinite war, it has come down to these two weeks. The families of Sept. 11 surely do. It is nine months, after all, since the commission - the only one empowered to fully probe the events of that day - was established. There are only eight more left until, by law, it expires.
The answer is that the White House has never wanted this commission. It fought against it for a year. Once it became politically impossible to stop, the administration engaged in a rear-guard action to slow its work, a stall meant to last until May, when the panel goes out of existence. Documents and witnesses were coming forth with such determined sluggishness that Hamilton, a Democrat, and his Republican counterpart, former New Jersey Gov. Thomas Kean, voiced concern about being thwarted. Since their extraordinary public complaint in July, much has gone better. Surprise.
"We had, shortly after that, a genuine flood of documents," Kean said at the panel's briefing on Tuesday.
Even from the White House. And except from the White House.
"Pending requests seek additional sensitive documents," the commission's latest report to the people says. "Extensive negotiations" continue and the commission has received "certain assurances" - but not all it needs - from the White House.
"We will inform the public very promptly if the commission does not receive the access that we need to do our job," Kean said.
The joint congressional committee that probed intelligence failures before the 9/11 attacks wrote, in its final report, a 15-page appendix about this very trouble. "Access Limitations Encountered by the Joint Inquiry," the chapter is called.
Information withheld from Congress included the president's daily brief, especially a crucial one produced in August 2001 that warned of possible terrorist attacks, including hijackings. Information relating to the development of a Bush counter-terrorism policy before 9/11 also was kept from the lawmakers.
"We will be very disappointed if we have to have such an appendix," Kean said.
The secrecy does not arise from worry over classified material. Reams of it was given to the congressional inquiry. More has gone to the independent commission. In the end, the executive branch agencies - the CIA, the FBI, the Defense Department, the White House - have the power to black out sensitive material from any eventual public report. Remember those 28 blank pages in the congressional report that are said to be about the Saudis?
"We have no power to declassify," Hamilton said. "The declassification power resides with the president."
So, too, does the power to let the 9/11 commission do its job.
In two weeks' time, this president must decide. He can live up to the rhetoric of cooperation and allow a full and fair inquiry into the catastrophe that redefined his presidency and all of our lives. Or he can assert executive privilege, withholding from the panel whatever White House documents, pretty much, he chooses.
The commission then would be duty-bound to tell us what these are. How could it do otherwise? The truth is not to be found in acquiescence.
The choice, when it is made, will have nothing at all to do with national security, though this would undoubtedly be the claim. It is, in the end, a matter of political security and how this White House decides to define it.
Copyright © 2003, Newsday, Inc.
Like this investigation will produce anything!
The wives of 9/11 victims have their own investigation going. They may dig up more evidence than this crew!
Boomer Chick
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Swamp Gas
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 4254
Location: On a Hill in the Lowlands |
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Sat Sep 27, 2003 4:03 pm
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quote:
Originally posted by the professor:
Your bias shows you think christain faith is a fraud. Because one sees abortion as death he's the wicked? I believe in the same God as the founding fathers yet I'm unamerican, and yet you call yourself a constituionalist. I don't know how you can if you can't even respect the moral codes of the founding fathers.
You are a phoney Christian, not a true Christian, that's why. The Jesus I enjoy is one detached from dogma, a peace loving person, not a belligerent A-hole, like your hero Dumpya.
As I've said, pick your myth, and live by it. If you want to think that liberals, pagans, Arabs, Muslims, and gays are lower forms of life, unless they are your particular form of Christianity, then expect to get it back.
Don't like the heat, get out the kitchen.
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the professor
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 1164
Location: heartland USA |
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Sun Sep 28, 2003 3:39 am
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Wow , try to sound like a tough guy. Once again classic example of how you generalize people. Because I don't think Bush is satan you think he's my hero? you are such an idiot!! really You can fire off all you want about what you think about me , it don't matter because I've already let yourself show everybody what kind off moron you really are, hey by the way is your singer suppose to sing out of key like that? just wondering.
But back to the original thought here about you talking tough like your elitist attitude tells you to. Truth be known you'd be the first to run with your tail between your legs, your posts prove so. While you waste your life crying about the NWO this or that yet nothing ever happens nor will it.
As far as you putting words in my mouth about lower life forms the only ones I find are those like yourself, self appointed know it alls who really don't know crap and how they never see themselves for as how they really look, idiotic! yes swampass sodomy is a disgusting practice and I don't approve this being taught to children under 7, you gotta problem with that, no probaly not because your into sick disgusting behavior, Socialists suck plain and simple! have a nice day swampy!
oh yeah know this , you were knocked out long ago as far as me missing, I don't hit girls.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by the professor on 09-27-2003] |
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Swamp Gas
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 4254
Location: On a Hill in the Lowlands |
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Sun Sep 28, 2003 4:02 am
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Prof,
The following people on these boards have said they liked the song:
chem11
Mech
EMFX13
Jeanie
amber
David
JerseyBLueyz
Thermit
bigjoe
Dan Rockwell
Jenna
Dack57
donSlepian
Raezzor
BDuncan
Should I believe thm or you?
Go ahead, I've been asked by the council to refrain, but if you continue, you are spelling your own demise here.
I will not call you names like you call me, but I will address you in simple psychological, nuerological, and social terms.
AND ONE LAST THING....ARE YOU ACCUSING ME OF DEVIANT SEXUAL PRACTICES?
THIS IS GETTING REPORTED TO THE COUNCIL, AND I THINK YOU SHOULD BE BANNED IMMEDIATELY?
I PROMISED THE COUNCIL I WOULD NOT GO OFF ON YOU, AND CALLING YOU A LINEAR BRAIN IS PSYCHOLICAL REALITY, NOT RIDICULE, AND YOUR MUSICAL EVALUATIONS ARE SIMPLY, YOURS.
[Edited 2 times, lastly by swamp gas on 09-27-2003] |
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the professor
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 1164
Location: heartland USA |
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Sun Sep 28, 2003 5:29 am
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quote
AND YOUR MUSICAL EVALUATIONS ARE SIMPLY, YOURS.
Exactley my point, there mine and I have a right to them wether if it's something you want to hear or not. |
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KNOW-THIS
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 3694
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Sun Sep 28, 2003 4:04 pm
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Professor should be banned, don't feel sorry for him because he is black. That doesn't exclude him from following the rules. 9 times out of 10, Professor is the common denominator to every argument. Prof. would say, "well what about you KNOW-THIS?". And my answer, I post at the mod forum, more often than here, and never a problem. You wouldn't be able to do the same, such a tantrum throwing child. You feel lonely, isolated in your delusions. Do you really expect us to join you?
And as far as bombing on Swampgas's singer, why don't you let us hear some of your vocals buddy? What have you got? Nothing! Pffftttt.......send Prof. on his way council. He needs the time to work on his social skills anyway. |
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Mech
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 8237
Location: THE 4th REICH USA |
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Sun Sep 28, 2003 4:10 pm
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Noble Gas is a kick @$$ band for a two-piece and Theta has a great voice.
What sets them apart is they dont sound like every stupid, common denominator, money making, mass marketed group coming out of hollywood.
Can't think of a better vehicle than music and modern technology to wake up the sleeping masses.
If you have the tools...use them!
Thus spoke the mechanic.
-----
http://www.letsroll911.org/
[Edited 4 times, lastly by Mech on 05-07-2004] |
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Swamp Gas
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 4254
Location: On a Hill in the Lowlands |
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Sun Sep 28, 2003 6:52 pm
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Mech and KNOW-THIS,
Thanks for being yourselves.
KT, The reason I didn't put you on the previous supporter list, is I hadn't heard from you either way. I should have known you would support the bizarre and the ununsual, so I apologize fro not including you.
That goes for anyone else I forgot.
The reason we write and do graphics/video is simple. It is support for the true little guy or gal, the one's put under the thumbs of the ruling elite, and to waken our own minds up more, and anybody else that wishes to come along.
Going back to topic, we feel that writing music and art that is "Non-Linear", will awaken those who are ready to look behind the veil of lies, especialllt the commercial music buseness. This will in turn allow one's self to see the alternatives to the WTC bombings, that what yhe CIA controlled media says may not be true. Conservatives and liberals are both reacting to the same lie, but in different ways. There always is a third side.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by swamp gas on 09-28-2003] |
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