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Swamp Gas
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 4254
Location: On a Hill in the Lowlands |
 Sun May 23, 2004 8:39 pm
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No point missed! I don't follow the Bible and do not want a public school system to force a particular belief system on people.
But what protects Pagans and atheists from over-zealous education systems that believe their belief system is only one way to see the universe.
For instance, I'm hearing principle's in schools warning and in some cases, suspending students who draw anti-Bush artwork, or write anti-war poetry. Who should come into defend such people, the ACLU, or should laws be intact to protect those that do not wish to belief in a sky god or The Bible?
And what about Satanists? Should they be allowed to sacrifice animals after class? Religion belongs in your own mind and in places where you choose with people that believe the same. It does not belong in public funded areas, such as schools and municiple buildings.
If one wants to have an after class Prayer Class or Pagan Flute Playing class, I have no problem. As long as you pay for it yourself, and I don't pay for any of it. This is my Libertarian Side. You want something, you pay for it, be it war, Prayers, public transportation, solar power, and fixing roads. You have children that you want to be Christians or Pagans, you teach them yourself, or choose a church, synagogue, or temple of your choice.
It is strange, Conservative Christians do not want to pay for the National Endowmnet for the Arts, yet want everyone to pay for prayer in schools, which comes down to time = money.
AS witnessed by MAd Muslims and Crazker Fundamentalis Christians, religion and politics DO NOT mix.
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Swedishoo
Joined: 09 Aug 2000
Posts: 429
Location: NC |
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Sun May 23, 2004 9:54 pm
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The reason why I say you missed my point, is because encouraging people to believe in seperation of church and state is one step closer to diminishing the First Amendment. As it is, the Second Amendment is on the hit list. The reason why the ACLU or the NEA has to come in and fix situations is because they know the constitution! Apparently you have an issue with the Christian faith, but what I'm saying it doesn't matter what faith one believes in, if our rights are slowly taken away from us, no one of any faith will have a voice.
quote:
Religion does not belong...in public funded areas, such as schools and municiple buildings.
This is my point...We the people, not the government officals, determine where religious-theme material can go or not go. We have the Right, and will continue to have the Right until the day the Constitution goes up in flames. I don't know what religion you are Swamp, nor does it matter, but I will fight to have mine as well as yours, be free.
Christy
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Swamp Gas
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 4254
Location: On a Hill in the Lowlands |
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Sun May 23, 2004 11:35 pm
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No religion.. If you read my posts, I follow two laws....Logic and Compassion, tempered by art and science, or the other way around. Everything else is Mythology.
When you start shoving any belief system down people's throats, some people are coming up at the short end, espcecially Muslims.
Again, you have missed the point. Jefferson and the Founders had the insight to know why people left England in the first place, to believe the way they wanted too.
you didn't answer any of my questions BTW.
Would you then stop any of the following belief systems in a public school
1) Nudists
2) Rastafarians
3) Buddhists
4) Hindus
5) Pagans
6) Atheists
7) Agnostics
 Satanists
9) Zorastrians
10) Muslims
Should each religion or belief be forced to listen to the other?
How do plan on implementing non-secular anarchy, which is what you are proposing?
Let me be frank...Mullahs of every belief (yes Pagans too..Listen to what some Pagan women think of men), think their Operating System is the correct one. Separation of Church and State is a VERY good idea. Then crazed politicians and people in power can't use their position to force their belief system on the rest of us.
I'll repeat again, religion belongs inside of you, and nowhere else, except where people gather with similar beliefs.
The issue with Christian Faith is yours, not my issue. Jesus was a Pagan, an Essene, and The Bible was a politically expedient book written by many people with differing views, some completely fanatical and sadistic, some very kind. I have no problem per say with Christians, but do not think for one minute some people will let Fundamentaists get away with anything.
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Swamp Gas
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 4254
Location: On a Hill in the Lowlands |
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Sun May 23, 2004 11:44 pm
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This is why we need Separation of Church and State:
http://www.powerskeptic.net/freedom.htm
Freedom, God, and George W. Bush
Analysis of the non-Biblical Bush thesis that freedom is from God.
by Frank Wallis
I keep hearing a familiar refrain from George W. Bush: freedom is from God, not from man.
"Liberty is both the plan of Heaven for humanity, and the best hope for progress here on Earth. The progress of liberty is a powerful trend. Yet, we also know that liberty, if not defended, can be lost. The success of freedom is not determined by some dialectic of history. By definition, the success of freedom rests upon the choices and the courage of free peoples, and upon their willingness to sacrifice. In the trenches of World War I, through a two-front war in the 1940s, the difficult battles of Korea and Vietnam, and in missions of rescue and liberation on nearly every continent, Americans have amply displayed our willingness to sacrifice for liberty." (Speech at the 20th Anniversary of the National Endowment for Democracy, 6 Nov. 2003)
One can only witness in wonderment what Bush means by "our willingness to sacrifice for liberty". GIs were sacrificed, but who made the decision to send them to war? Rich people who partied at night while poor men were being blown to bits on the battlefield.
It is to be seriously doubted that soldiers fight for freedom. They fight to stay alive and avoid letting their fellows down. Later, the pols tell them they fought well for King and Country, for the Führer, for Allah, or for Freedom. They shed a tear for the fallen, and then go home to party. Meanwhile, the survivors are left to wonder for the rest of their lives what it was all about.
As a true conservative, Bush must include Vietnam as an example of Americans dying for freedom. But this is revolting. The Vietnam adventure was pure filth, based on a lie (the bogus Gulf of Tonkin Resolution). It is hard for cons and veterans to admit that GIs were killed for nothing.
Said Bush in 2003, "More than half of all the Muslims in the world live in freedom under democratically constituted governments." (ibid.) I guess he includes 200 million strong Indonesia which allows Muslim pogroms against Christians. Note the wiggle wording: "democratically constituted", which means there is a fig leaf of technical merit, but as in communist China the meaning of democracy is a tricky thing.
"We know that freedom is the gift of God to all mankind, and we rejoice when others can share it." - George W. Bush (White House news release, "Operation Iraqi Freedom", 12 April 2003)
"...freedom is God's gift to every person in every nation." (Remarks by the President on Operation Iraqi Freedom, Ford Community and Performing Arts Center, Dearborn, Michigan, 28 April 2003)
It's all about doing God's will. America is on a mission from God to bring freedom to Iraq and the rest of the world. Bush is answering his true divine "calling" to liberate people who suffer under tyranny. We have gone from an imminent threat of WMD being launched against us, to al-Queda being in league with Hussein, to bestowing God's freedom on the Iraqis. All lies. First Bush affirms that only God can grant freedom. It is God's gift, not a human right. Then Bush says it is America's mission, ordained by God and captained by Bush, to bring freedom to the world. Does anyone outside the White House notice this contradiction? If freedom is a gift of Jesus, then why does George Bush usurp the role of Jesus and force freedom on Iraq?
Actual references to freedom and liberty in the Bible are scarce. The most relevant passage is in the New Testament book of Galatians. "It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery." (Galatians, 5:1, New American Standard version) The King James version of 1622 reads "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." Possibly related to John 8:12 "and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." (New American Standard version) Also, 2 Corinthians 3:17 "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." (New American Standard version) The liberty here is freedom from Mosaic ceremonial law. Paul and Jesus speak of freedom from sin, not political freedom, and certainly not the form of government. Free in Christ Jesus, or enslaved to sin. Freedom under the Gospels, or spiritual slavery under the law of Moses. Freedom from the ritual of circumcision and the Mosaic law (the covenant of bondage). Thus, Bush cannot point to a single line of his Bible and find the word of God supporting his theological casus belli in the Iraq escapade.
For a Christian the gospel of Jesus Christ is the law of liberty from sin and death, while the Mosaic law is that of bondage and death. "But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does." (James, 1:25) This reference to liberty has nothing to do with American democracy.
Also instructive is the Christian order to obey the status quo, as seen in this passage from 1 Peter 2:
2:13 "Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,
2:14 "or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right."
2:16 "Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God."
The form of government in the Mediterranean in those days was emperor and governor, not president, congress, and supreme court. Does Bush believe that the best government is the Bible-sanctioned Roman empire?
Freedom in the political context means the right to pursue happiness, as the Founders established in the Constitution. It is the right to act as one sees fit, consistent with responsibility. Freedom is a human idea which takes some effort to attain and keep in the real world of everyday life.
____________________
Copyright 2004 by Frank Wallis. All rights reserved.
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Swedishoo
Joined: 09 Aug 2000
Posts: 429
Location: NC |
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Mon May 24, 2004 4:37 am
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quote:
you didn't answer any of my questions BTW. Would you then stop any of the following belief systems in a public school
1) Nudists
2) Rastafarians
3) Buddhists
4) Hindus
5) Pagans
6) Atheists
7) Agnostics
Satanists
9) Zorastrians
10) Muslims
No, and nor do others. East Lake High once had a Wicca Club. It was their Right to.
quote:
Should each religion or belief be forced to listen to the other?
You make it sound like people are preaching in school. That's not the case nor ever was. Most people enjoy hearing wisdoms of other religions.
quote:
How do plan on implementing non-secular anarchy, which is what you are proposing?
I have no idea what you are saying here.
It is apparent that you are more interested in bashing religions and trying to prove that religion is being thrown down your throat, rather than being concerned of the freedoms of others and of this country. Personally, I can clearly see that you are one more person in the 75 percentile that does not grasp the validity of the Constitution. I hope I do not offend you in saying so, but it is clear we see the Constitution on a differnet level. You can take your Pagan/Peacenik Jesus beliefs and be thankful you have people like me in this country that believes in allowing your religious freedoms because if you let the State make your choices, you wouldn't have one.
Christy
Peace |
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Swamp Gas
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 4254
Location: On a Hill in the Lowlands |
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Mon May 24, 2004 3:09 pm
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Swedishoo,
You are assuming I "believe" in Mythology the same as you.
Did you not read about my opinion Pagans being as dogmatic as Christians? Fanatic Muslims?
My freedom comes from my willingness to question every "expert", including Right-Wing Religious fanatics and Know-it-all Liberals,not from you saying "All is One" in belief systems, although your questioning of the government is a good step and have that in common. You know damn well that belief is no good unless you put it into action.
What do you do to counter extreme amounts of Linear Thought, War, Programming, and Fanatics trying to ram religious dogma through legislation?
AS I said before, my parents and grandparents taught me to be a good person by NOT being tied to religion, but by caring for sick animals and encouraged to have lots of friends.
BAck then, I was reading Scientific American and playing Bach on the piano, when other kids were praying to The Bible.
Oh, the question was "How do plan on implementing non-secular anarchy, which is what you are proposing?"
What is so difficult to understand? How would you plan on forcing 50% of the population to accept religion in school and public areas, where the Constutition stipulates "Separation" not Homogenization? I know many people who would fight this tooth and nail, so please stick to Sunday school, Sunday Mass, and in your own mind..I'll stick with Einstein and Peter Gabriel and Noble Gas. After all, my writing music and producing videos that question authority helps you have your freedom to worship whatever you want in the privacy of your own home or church.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by swamp gas on 05-24-2004] |
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increase 1776
Joined: 07 Oct 2000
Posts: 3097
Location: Bizzaro World |
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Tue May 25, 2004 6:04 am
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 This is the Israeli Govt's definition of animals.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by increase 1776 on 05-25-2004] |
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