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1975 grid

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Chemtrail Central > Debate and Debunking

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LTC8K6





Joined: 20 Oct 2000
Posts: 267
Location: Tar Heel State
1975 grid PostTue Jan 23, 2001 10:00 pm  Reply with quote  

http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/mirrors/images/images/pao/ASTP/10076553.htm
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Thermit





Joined: 08 Jul 2000
Posts: 3138
Location: Texas
PostTue Jan 23, 2001 10:06 pm  Reply with quote  

That's really more of an "X".

Here's one of my favorites from Germany 98:

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marcinko





Joined: 09 Jan 2001
Posts: 31
Location: orlando, fl, usa
PostWed Jan 24, 2001 5:48 am  Reply with quote  

thermit,

i have seen witnessed this scene many times and have seen many pictures similar to this on different sites.

my question to you is this. chemtrail believers show pictures of what they think are unusual trails. trails that supposedly dont exhibit "normal" contrail behavior. thats fine. we can debate those photos. but your picture does show contrails in a grid-like pattern. does each individual trail look like anything other than a contrail? i cant see anything in each individual trail that is odd. it seems to me. that you have a photo of a contrail grid pattern. if we agree on that point then the photo is either normal, heavy, air traffic and drifting contrails (which i have witnessed too many times to count in my flying career) or you believe that just having a pattern is damning in itself. if that is the case, then i guess we can debate why anyone would want to lay contrails in a grid pattern.

d.m.
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Thermit





Joined: 08 Jul 2000
Posts: 3138
Location: Texas
PostWed Jan 24, 2001 6:35 am  Reply with quote  

Marcinko,

The interesting thing about this grid, is how near perfect it is. Notice the numerous intersections of lines at near right angles and how the trail just suddenly stops.



Now as to why is a grid important. It depends on your perspective. If you were a pilot this would be a simple means of attempting to evenly spread a sprayed substance. The only other significance to it is that when viewed it shows a possibility of intention, as opposed to random natural processes. I'm sure that this type of configuration won't be seen much anymore because of it's obviousness to some.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Thermit on 01-23-2001]
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marcinko





Joined: 09 Jan 2001
Posts: 31
Location: orlando, fl, usa
PostWed Jan 24, 2001 6:56 am  Reply with quote  

actually thermit, i still see these patterns all the time. both on the ground and when i fly. what would be the explanation for me seeing almost an identical scene over the gulf of mexico or 100 miles out from N.C. over the atlantic? no one to spray out there and yet i have seen similar pictures.

couldnt the grid be explained by aircraft on airways. one aircraft flys through the airway, it's trail then drifts in the wind, then another aircraft flies through creating a parallel trail. having intersecting airways, at all angles including the 90 degree type, is not unusual.

i guess my point is that these pics can be rather easliy explained by normal means. trails that start and stop have been explained ad nauseum (?). they start and stop for the same reasons clouds start and stop basically.

i see your point about them stopping at roughly a precise point, but not all the trails do so. it is actually looks kind of random to me, which is what you would expect to find in nature. some stop fairly close to another trail, some a distance away, some continue well past.

also, with thousand of flights everyday, the law of chance alone would create some pretty neat patterns.

lastly, what is the logic behind a grid for this medium. it has already been established that any spraying at these altitudes would be highly inaccurate. these trails and chemicals would drift for hundreds of miles before reaching the ground. why would you need to be so accurate in your spraying? what difference would a few feet make?

usually the easiest, simplest explanation is the correct one. not always, but usually.

d.m.
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speakingwind





Joined: 22 Jan 2001
Posts: 22
PostWed Jan 24, 2001 10:44 am  Reply with quote  

Why were there more trails last year than this year?

Less traffic this year I suppose?

Note where the trails start abruptly in the pics. Well the trails goin 90 degees to them are there, yet the trails starting abruptly are not. Same conditions, yet one trail decides to stop and start where another does not, when they should be intersecting.

Looks like spraying to me.
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LTC8K6





Joined: 20 Oct 2000
Posts: 267
Location: Tar Heel State
PostWed Jan 24, 2001 1:28 pm  Reply with quote  

Now, if you only knew what altitude each contrail is at.
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LTC8K6





Joined: 20 Oct 2000
Posts: 267
Location: Tar Heel State
PostWed Jan 24, 2001 1:31 pm  Reply with quote  

More old contrails. Even a u-turn just for you, Thermit.
http://images.jsc.nasa.gov/images/pao/STS52/10065347.htm
http://images.jsc.nasa.gov/images/pao/STS2/10060519.htm
http://images.jsc.nasa.gov/images/pao/STS49/10065207.htm
http://images.jsc.nasa.gov/images/pao/STS31/10063606.htm


[Edited 1 times, lastly by LTC8K6 on 01-24-2001]
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nodebbunker





Joined: 01 Nov 2000
Posts: 200
Location: Indiana USA
PostWed Jan 24, 2001 2:42 pm  Reply with quote  

>"Why were there more trails last year than this year?<"

Where? Not here. Alot more this time than last year. Depends on where you're at and RH at various altitudes. Why don't you read back into the threads, especially from poster known as Canex. I used to be a chemmie and wanted everyone else to supply the answers too. They did. Them thar's contrails!

------------------
just a housewife from Indiana
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Thermit





Joined: 08 Jul 2000
Posts: 3138
Location: Texas
PostWed Jan 24, 2001 4:44 pm  Reply with quote  

Marcinko,

Any picture is debateable, sure.

And as I mentioned, I don't think there is any real need for a grid or "X".

What I see around here, are simple trail strips.



Let me go ahead and say that, yes, something like this could conceivably occur naturally. If that is the working hypothesis, then this type of formation should be seen occasionally occuring no matter what type of plane or whether it is civilian or military. However, what I've found is that in my dozens of observations of non-military flights, correlated via Flight Explorer, this strip phenomenon has never been observed. On the other hand, in my observations of several flights that were confirmed not show up on the tool, these strips have been observed to occur. These strips are highly persistent trails of varying length. The persistence of these strips has never been equaled by the identifiable traffic (non-military).
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marcinko





Joined: 09 Jan 2001
Posts: 31
Location: orlando, fl, usa
PostWed Jan 24, 2001 7:30 pm  Reply with quote  

thermit,

because i am lazy, i will copy a comment of mine from another thread.

"not too long ago i was 1000 feet below a Virgin Atlantic 747 over the middle of the middle of the atlantic. for the entire flight he was not producing a contrail. then all of a sudden, contrail. then it stopped. then it started again and lasted for quite a while. i doubt richard branson is employed by our government to chemspray the atlantic ocean."

i dont doubt your observations at all.

"However, what I've found is that in my dozens of observations of non-military flights, correlated via Flight Explorer, this strip phenomenon has never been observed. "

you seem to be very reasonable and willing to listen to alternative hypothesis. all i can tell you is that i have witnessed it too many times to count in my flying career. i have observed this happening from up close and i have observed this from a distance. if you ask other pilots they will tell you the same thing. you can believe that i am just lying to you because i am on the government payroll or some other nonsense or you can take my word for it. but it happens and it is fairly well documented in weather literature. i keep repeating this, but contrails start and stop abruptly for the basically the same reasons normal clouds start and stop abruptly.

d.m.
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Thermit





Joined: 08 Jul 2000
Posts: 3138
Location: Texas
PostWed Jan 24, 2001 7:52 pm  Reply with quote  

Marcinko,

I don't doubt your observations either. Not at all. It's simple science. But the question really is, is there any thing more going on than that?

What I'm trying to do is go beyond observations, to documented measurements and meaningful analysis of those measurements. I will eventually make a full report of my findings. If there is Chemtrail operation, no matter how unlikely it may be to some, there should be discernable clues that can be identified via observervations, measurements and analysis. I don't think anyone, debunker or believer, has ever done the exact research that I'm currently doing. If I had found that the highly-persistent trails in my area were all from commerical aircraft and that they were all consistent based on contrail formation physics, I would have reported this and dedicated the site to dispelling the hoax. But that isn't what I've found, so I will continue with my research until I report the full findings.
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marcinko





Joined: 09 Jan 2001
Posts: 31
Location: orlando, fl, usa
PostWed Jan 24, 2001 8:01 pm  Reply with quote  

thermit,

i applaud your efforts. too many chemtrail activists just go on about how sick everyone is or how heavy spraying was today compared to when they were a child with no data to back anything up. like they can actually quantify the amount of contrails that they observed when they were 7 years old. actually they ignore any data that is presented. i have always asked for the hard data. so your efforts are appreciated and i look forward to your findings.

keep in mind, i have no doubt that are seeing more of the "odd" contrails such is persisting, startand stopping, spirals, etc. they are more contrails of every type because of the dramatic increase of air traffic and also the switch from prop commuter aircraft to jet commuter aircraft.

d.m.
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BEE





Joined: 13 Dec 2000
Posts: 23
PostWed Jan 24, 2001 9:59 pm  Reply with quote  

Thermit, I know of your work to identify whether contrails are identifiable aircraft on FE. For those contrails which don't show an association on FE and are persistant, what kind of measurement and analysis are you trying to do to indicate these are anything other than a contrail. A simple correlation between not being on FE and being persistent doesn't mean anything. (Although, I doubt that even that correlation exists, but I'll wait and see what your results are.) For example, there is a correlation that every morning I get out of bed and then the sun comes up. Does that mean I made the sun come up?
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Thermit





Joined: 08 Jul 2000
Posts: 3138
Location: Texas
PostWed Jan 24, 2001 11:15 pm  Reply with quote  

Bee, condescending causality aside, I don't plan to detail my methods until the results are released. I'm surprised you are interested, since you seem to already doubt the published preliminary findings.

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