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Government Encroachment of Klamath Falls

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Chemtrail Central > The Neutral Zone

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Chem11





Joined: 21 Apr 2001
Posts: 1386
PostMon Sep 10, 2001 7:25 am  Reply with quote  

This communist 'hell' you describe somehow manages to provide it's citizens with what we Americans have so far been denied, the most basic of human rights: health care for all it's citizens. This depite the war of attrition that has been waged against Cuba for lo these many decades.


quote:
To have legal rights in America, you need citizenship.


This is simply not true. Vistors, green-card holders and even illegal immigrants are protected by US law. If a family member took off with your child to escape the US (where you enjoy a much greater chance of being imprisoned than in Cuba) would you be so willing to perpetuate this fallacy? Would you give up your legal rights to custody because your family member made it to another country with your child?


quote:
Elian's mother had custody of the boy and therefore cannot be considered a kidnapper.


Really? From what legal doctrine do you base this theory? Care to venture a guess as to how many parents are wanted for abducting their own children because they are unhappy with custody arrangements following a divorce?

And it was the anti-Castro community in S. Fla. that used this child as a poster boy for their cause. Elian is too young to understand politics. He lookshappy because he is happy. Not because he is smug in some sort of satisfation that Castro won some sort of political victory.

And free cigars didn't prevent the Bay of Pigs fiasco or the Cuban Missile Crisis. Castro survives because... he's a survivor, I suppose. But no one lives forver. I would assume the CIA has given up any hope of ousting this particular opponent and is content to wait for nature to take it's course until making any more moves.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's illegal for American citizens to travel to Cuba. Therefore it is doubtful that you have any first hand knowledge of the 'hellish' conditions that may or may not be present on that island. Mexican citizens are under no such restrictions and I was recently reading an article written by a group of Mexican journalists that travelled to Havana.

My impression was of a country that possessed an air of innocence similar to what Americans romanticize about what when we think about life here during the 50's. In fact, because of import restrictions, almost all the cars on the road are from the 30's, 40's and 50's. One of the other curiosities that this isolation has brought to Cuba is a phenomenly low HIV-infection rate. The few that were infected were immediately quarantined and given outstanding medical treatment and care.

Which leads me to another public health policy debacle here in The States... why, for the first time in history, was a disease this deadly allowed to remain unchecked and spread throughout the general population?

How many lives would have been spared if we had followed the lead of that Hellish Prison to the south?

[Edited 3 times, lastly by Chem11 on 09-10-2001]
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Dr Spook





Joined: 09 Sep 2001
Posts: 5
PostMon Sep 10, 2001 8:13 am  Reply with quote  

Like I said, you really are a delusional socialist, aren't you chem?

I suppose you would have loved Hillary's federalized cradle to grave medical care too?

Why is it, do you suppose, that you always see people risking their lives to jump on makeshift cardboard rafts to come to this country, and not the other way around?

Basic common sense would tell most thinking individuals the obvious: because Cuba is a communist prison! Instead you seem to want to hold it up as a model of heath care that the United States should follow??! This is the definition of delusional.

And this comment takes the cake:

My impression was of a country that possessed an air of innocence similar to what Americans romanticize about what when we think about life here during the 50's.


This is the most ignorant thing I think I've read in a long time. Speaks for itself...

And the mother had custody of the boy simply because he was with her....speaking in terms of basic human rights, natural rights, not legal rights. In Cuba, the boy would legally be the custody and the property of papa Castro, as he is now....as all Cuban citizens are.

People don't necessarily go to prison in Cuba. Cuba is a prison. People who break the law are normally shot.

It's obvious where your political ideologies lie.....and obvious that you are lying to yourself.

Let it be known world that Chem11 actually made the statement that Cuba's system saves lives, as opposed to America's system. (Maybe he doesn't realize how many people Castro has had killed). And let it also be known that Chem11 actually declared America's system is more likely to imprison people!

How else can one describe these comments except "sheer stupidity"? I don't know. I tried, but I couldn't find the words.

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Chem11





Joined: 21 Apr 2001
Posts: 1386
PostMon Sep 10, 2001 8:34 am  Reply with quote  


quote:
Like I said, you really are a delusional socialist, aren't you chem?


I was unaware that you had previously made this statement in one of your posts. Please direct me to said post, if you would.


quote:
And the mother had custody of the boy simply because he was with her.


Custody is a legal term. To maintain that a person has 'custody' of another person because that person is 'with them' is patently absurd, under any definition of law.


quote:
Let it be known world that Chem11 actually made the statement that Cuba's system saves lives, as opposed to America's system.


This is a documented fact. Do the research. Then post the HIV infection rate for Cuba vs. the US.


quote:
And let it also be known that Chem11 actually declared America's system is more likely to imprison people!


Another documented fact. We live in the most highly inarcerated nation, per-capita, in the world. Do the research. Then post the incarcertation rate data.


quote:
How else can one describe these comments except "sheer stupidity"? I don't know. I tried, but I couldn't find the words.


This does not surprise me. Those who express such ill-informed opinions are frequently left at a loss for words.


[Edited 1 times, lastly by Chem11 on 09-10-2001]
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Dr Spook





Joined: 09 Sep 2001
Posts: 5
PostMon Sep 10, 2001 8:57 am  Reply with quote  

Custody is a legal term. To maintain that a person has 'custody' of another person because that person is 'with them' is patently absurd, under any definition of law.

What law? Castro's or American? The only person who has custody of the child in Cuba is Castro, the state...not the parents. The father or mother never had custody of Elian as long as they were in Cuba. This was a point of mine that you missed about three times now. (Another blatant indication of stupidity).

Cuba may in fact have a lower HIV rate. Nobody is disputing this. BUT you use this fact to directly imply that because of it, Cuba must have a better health care system...yet you make no attempt to site a difference in behavior. In other words, you ignore the cause of AIDS. I suppose you are going to tell me now that Cuba, has a cure for AIDS because Castro himself invented it and all those high tech hospitals over there have top research teams that developed an anti-dote. Do you believe in the tooth fairy too Chem?

Same thing with incarcerations. Did it occur to you that this is a result of behavior that people end up in prison. In other words, they are usually criminals who break the law in America. People are less likely to break the law where they are not protected by due process of the law...where there is no such thing as the concept of innocent until proven guilty. If Castro says your guilty...hey, you're guilty. If Castro wants you to die....you die.

Again, most morons would realize this difference between free countries and those that are not.

This does not surprise me. Those who express such ill-informed opinions are frequently left at a loss for words.

Again you are mistaken. It is not a loss of words I have...it is a loss of more descriptive words. Your comments are sheer stupidity, there's just no more accurate way to express it.




[Edited 4 times, lastly by Dr Spook on 09-10-2001]
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Chem11





Joined: 21 Apr 2001
Posts: 1386
PostMon Sep 10, 2001 9:23 am  Reply with quote  

I have backed up my comments with facts Dr. 'Spook'. And done so without resorting to personal attacks. Or flacid attempts at twisting your words.

Again I will ask you to direct me to your earlier reference to me as a 'delusional socialist'. I find this an interesting comment from someone who ostensibly only started posting here today.


quote:
Again, most morons would realize this difference between free countries and those that are not.


Agreed. And don't forget to buckle up, or you may find out how easily that freedom can now be deprived.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Chem11 on 09-10-2001]
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Thermit





Joined: 08 Jul 2000
Posts: 3137
Location: Texas
PostMon Sep 10, 2001 9:44 pm  Reply with quote  

Chem11, I think what Dr. Spook was referring to, when he made that slip, was his post at Deb's...

quote:

(no subject)
Posted on September 10, 2001 at 02:28:42 AM by cydoniaquest

If anyone doubts the socialist nature of most people who post at Mark's, Check out the latest Chem11 thoughts on Cuba.

Apparently, in his mind, people in Cuba are much freer than they are here because, according to him, they are less likely to go to prison. (Can anyone say clueless?) They also have a much better health care system, because he sites a lower incidence of AIDS.

I wonder if it occurred to Chem, that healthcare is not a right (how many people realize that), and that AIDS rate is a result of personal behavior, not efficiency of the health care system?

Chem11's latest crapola (was a link)




Take a hike, Cy. You acted like such a jerk, hurting those who thought they could trust you, even demanding that I remove your member Id. You said you would leave like a gentleman, when I held up my end of the bargain, which I did. You lied.

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mark sky





Joined: 14 Oct 2000
Posts: 3616
Location: SW coast of Oregon
PostTue Sep 11, 2001 2:48 am  Reply with quote  

man has this thread stayed from Klamath Falls Oregon to Cuba or what
I just got back from Klamath Falls last night after a farmers campout brainstorming session
and got to look around a little bit
when the GOVERNMENT shut off the water
and it was the government "your government" that did it
they turnned lush productive farmland into parched weed infested "no mans land"
some areas still have some water and you see the stark contrast between the haves and the have nots.
One thing that was discussed late at night was the issue of the 20 million disaster relief funds that are being offered to the farmers.
Seems somewhere between congress and the actual relief check ($200 per acre) someone inserted something new.....
if you sign up for this disaster relief you aiutomatically sign up for "conservation easements". If you don't comply "fully" with these new terms in the future your land can be forclosed on immeadiately.
Our government caused this situation
Our farmers are broke and need this pitance just to pay the bills and even to eat
between a rock and a hard spot over a sucker fish that can survive in mudflats as it has in the past
Well Klamath lake is full to brimming with water there~ so someone can be prowd of the human suffering that they have caused

you now revolutionary wars were started over smaller things like the tea tax

what pans out in Klamath Falls this year will let you know what kind of world you will be living in in your berg in the near future
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Duncan Kunz





Joined: 19 Oct 2000
Posts: 582
PostTue Sep 11, 2001 5:46 am  Reply with quote  

I think the Endangered Species Act (ESA) has gotten way out of hand, and I sympathize with the farmers -- to a point -- over the coho salmon and sucker fish.

But there are a couple of points which seem to get conveniently overlooked:

1. The fishermen of the Coho, both Indians and non-Indians, have been around a lot longer than the farmers have, and -- if the farmers have their way -- it is the fishermen whose lifestyle will be endangered.

2. The farmers talk about their "right" to irrigate the land. Yet it was the Fedz who built the dam in the first place, and subsidized the farmers to come in to a place that was naturally desert. In other words, the farmers have been getting a ride -- corporate welfare, as it were -- from the fedz for all these years. And what we hae here is a case of "The Fedz giveth and the Fedz taketh away".

Now I still feel sorry for the farmers. They've been there a long, long time and they just naturally thought the government was going to subsidize their irrigation forever.

But they were wrong. Maybe that's what you can expect if you put your reliance in the ogvernment instead of yourself -- I don't know.

------------------
Duncan Kunz / duncankunz@home.com
Mesa AZ / 480-891-2525
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mark sky





Joined: 14 Oct 2000
Posts: 3616
Location: SW coast of Oregon
PostTue Sep 11, 2001 5:54 am  Reply with quote  

dunkan, you dont seem to realize that your LIFE is "sUsidizEd " all over the place
and i would be amounge the first to pull YOUR BOING SUBSIDY into light
stand in the soup line with the rest of the natives sometime
boeing operative get a life
and have something to eat
grown by ?
these were veterans of WW 1 and WW2
that whent out and made farm land in a harsh place with the full proding of the government you
still claim exists

to me that goverment has disolved and in itz place a piece
will never be at rest until

you of interest

[Edited 1 times, lastly by mark sky on 09-11-2001]
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mark sky





Joined: 14 Oct 2000
Posts: 3616
Location: SW coast of Oregon
PostTue Sep 11, 2001 5:57 am  Reply with quote  

is it verb or an adjective
commu~nazi
that makes good people go to war
and turn wronge to right while
good people die?
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Chem11





Joined: 21 Apr 2001
Posts: 1386
PostTue Sep 11, 2001 6:12 am  Reply with quote  

I've heard those arguements before, Duncan and considered them in an objective manner. The salmon lobby is quite active here in Seattle, as I'm sure you are aware.

But it seems to me that pulling the rug out from underneath these people is a pretty bad idea. Not that the Federal government has much credibility left, but this type of nonsense doesn't do much to restore peoples faith in that entity.

And as far as preserving the native american way of life goes, I'm afraid that was lost quite a long time ago. Now it appears that rural america is next on the Federal hitlist.
Small towns and small business are going to be nothing more than a distant memory if this trend continues.

I believe what we are seeing can be paralleled with the decline of the Anasazi native americans. As their resources declined, their culture became centralized in urban areas. Then they vanished.
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theseeker





Joined: 25 Jul 2000
Posts: 3403
Location: Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
PostTue Sep 11, 2001 7:33 am  Reply with quote  

duncan the fed's invited men and women to grow roots under the impression that the water would flow...

your premise concur's with mine about "welfare" but this (klamath basin) was an agreement....not an entitlemnet...

what's happening now is a travesty....

btw, chem your are a flaming socialist...lol...

I mean please...there was some darn fine casino's in cuba before the communist shutdown !

when castro dies it will be one helluva resort area again !

T/S


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Chem11





Joined: 21 Apr 2001
Posts: 1386
PostTue Sep 11, 2001 8:58 am  Reply with quote  

To be honest, theseeker, I've never felt it neccesary to defend my views from a political perspective. I'm not a member of any political party and I don't buy into labels. If it suits you and Cydoniaquest to attach McCarthy-esque classifications to people, then I'm happy to be on the debunker hitlist...under any column.
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Duncan Kunz





Joined: 19 Oct 2000
Posts: 582
PostTue Sep 18, 2001 6:47 am  Reply with quote  

To be honest, I can't really get exercised about the farmers versus the fishermen one way or another. The greenies backs the fish, the populists back the farmers; who has the best lobby?



------------------
Duncan Kunz / duncankunz@home.com
Mesa AZ / 480-891-2525
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theseeker





Joined: 25 Jul 2000
Posts: 3403
Location: Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
PostTue Sep 18, 2001 7:55 am  Reply with quote  

Duncan are not the one's who support the endangered fish, not fishermen, but evironmentalists ?

1 populist vote here

Personally I left this post alone last week, because I can't stand people telling me they don't subscribe to notions'(labels) when the one's they put forth are so very evident and polar....

Naturally thoughts along these lines are secondary to the one's I am following now...

A week ago life was completely different for the entire planet...

T/S

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