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Posted on August 12, 2001 at 02:18:02 AM by cydoniaquest

...Although I don't really argue for chemtrails or against them, I still find the photo anomalous. I just don't see how the atmosphere could change so dramatically in the space of a few feet to produce no contrails one second and voluminous contrails the next.....(if we want to make the contrail argument). What else could cause this situation if the spraying explanation is ignored? Would an aircraft suddenly throttling up cause this? Or maybe descending or climbing into a pocket of air of differing properties? Or maybe it's a hybrid experimental aircraft with rocket or ramjet engines that were suddenly ignited. Have any of the pilots here witnessed their own aircraft suddenly contrailing like this (as if a valve were opened), or one they were following? How common should this type of sudden stop and start occurrence be? Don’t contrails normally appear more gradually as the aircraft flies into the appropriate atmospheric conditions?

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Posted on August 12, 2001 at 11:49:22 AM by goldrush

I have seen these bluntlooking contrails around the foothills east of Sacramento quite often too. If one has ever flown a Cessna, or a Cherokee in California, they can certainly attest to up and down drafts and difficulty in flying straight and level. One MAIN thing that is not ever shown, is a jet actually in the picture of, one of these contrails. The reason why, is because the jet has passed miles beyond and these types of contrails are remannts that did not dissipate entirely. The blunt edges are formed by vertical up or down drafts. I have watched jets leave a contrail in one area of sky and for most all of it to dissipate and leave one small remnant behind, that may occasionally have edges just like this.

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Posted on August 12, 2001 at 06:49:34 PM by goldrush

I suggest to ANY CHEMTRAIL BELIEVER, that they go for a test flight with an instructor in a small plane, to physically feel what it is like just even a few thousand feet above ground. Clear skies do not always mean there is no air movement.... remember learning to fly straight and level? I do.

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Posted on August 12, 2001 at 03:27:22 AM by Maverick

Cy-

Actually, I have seen this same phenomenon in person. I haven't seen myself doing it, since I can't see directly behind myself to see if I'm conning or not, but I have seen another aircraft doing it. Let the story begin....

I was flying out to one of our MOAs (military operations areas) about a month ago with a wingman to do some air-to-air training. We were given our standard clearance to climb up to flight level 260, and head west into the MOA. The MOA that we were using is bordered by two jet routes, one on the north and one on the south. As we were leveling off and turning to point at the MOA, I noticed off to the northwest of me there was an airliner flying parallel to us on a westerly course along the jet route. We were overtaking it at a decent pace, and it was probably about 4,000 feet or so above us. As we neared our airspace, I got to within about a half-mile of it and had a crystal-clear view of a Southwest Airlines 737. As I watched it, I noticed an area of contrails that ran north-south along the Rio Grande valley that we were approaching. I watched, curious to see what would happen when the SWA jet hit the same area. Sure as heck, the contrails started as if lucifer himself was opening up a valve of poison to rain down on the unsuspecting populace. The only problem was, it was clearly a Southwest Airlines passenger jet that was marking the sky up and not a "Megasparayer."

Here's a theory of mine, and you hit upon it in your post above Cy. You see, air is not a stable, consistent entity. There are air masses inside of air masses moving about at all directions and all speeds. Now, I know that you are a pilot, Cy, so I apologize for the Weather 101 course here. But, there may be the uninitiated few who need this basic course, so I will type it to get everyone reading this on the same page.

Differences in temperature, particularly from surface heating, can send giant masses of air rocketing upward at several thousand feet per minute. Conversely, a giant cool leyer of air can drop like a rock from the sky. It's why you see 45,000-foot plus storms in the midwest every summer. But, it can be near clouds or away from them. It can happen anywhere. In aviation circles, it can wreak havoc on aircraft and is responsible for many crashes. Let me explain.

These updrafts and downdrafts can happen in clear air, and near storms. They can occur just about anywhere. At low altitudes and near storms, a cool downdraft from the storm can be large enough to cause an airliner to slam into the ground. This happened in the 1980s to an aircraft on final approach to Dallas-Fort Worth International airport. The aviation term for this is wind shear.

Now, this can happen at altitudes the air in these updrafts and downdrafts are completely different than the air around them, both in temperature and relative humidity.

Now, as I'm flying, particulaly in the afternoon when a significant amount of heating of the earth's surface has happened, I regularly come across these updrafts and downdrafts. When I fly from a region of stable air into an updraft or downdraft, I can get quite a jolt in the in the aircraft from the sudden change of the air's properties. This is basically an "air pocket." As suddenly as the air changes from one region to the next, it doesn't surprise me at all to see trails start and stop suddenly. I'll bet that if you were on the plane when the trail starts or stops, then you would feel a sudden updraft or downdraft or an "air pocket." So, I see no reason not to believe that these air masses on their way up or down are responsible for the sudden starting and stopping of trails. After all, the air ten feet away from a column of rising or falling air is a lot different than the air inside of the column, potentially both in humidity and temperature.

Maverick

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Posted on August 12, 2001 at 03:53:31 AM by cydoniaquest

...I find your explanation for the photo entirely reasonable. Given that this cut-off effect looks like it is happening in a clear blue sky in the picture, though I would assume it is probably not associated with the violent up and downdrafts of a thunderstorm. I do know however that CAT (or clear air turbulence) can extend miles down range from mountains and does have a vertical component that could also account for dramatic changes in air properties from one space to the next.

I've heard it said that convective currents of air actually rise in a similar manner to a bubble (rather than a column as most visualize). Therefore an aircraft could be flying beneath the bottom or top of the bubble (or air pocket) and not leave a trail, yet fly through the middle of the bubble of moist warm air (that is rising because it is inherently less dense) and leave a trail.

See, given a little thought to the photo....I'm now answering my own question! But this conversation may still be very useful for those just being introduced to the subject, and/or being subjected to some of the propaganda at the other boards. Even pilot's can look at this stuff and find it anomalous, like "Alcon", an experienced 737 pilot, who has posted many aerial pics he thinks to be possible chemtrails at the CTTUSA board.

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Posted on August 12, 2001 at 11:05:57 AM by cydoniaquest

My questions were simply to get a pilot's observations and thoughts, and I received what I was seeking in a very satisfactory response from Maverick above.

FE [Flight Explorer]...upper air soundings and radiosonde readings will not accuratey reflect temperature and humidity conditions in the areas Mav and I were talking about such as air pockets, wind sheer, thermals and CAT.

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