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Eric
Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 10
Location: Connecticut |
Questions....
 Sat Nov 15, 2003 1:52 pm
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Keep in mind while reading this post that I am NOT a debunker. I have seen on numerous occasions what I believe to be chemical spraying operations in the skies above me, and I also believe that there's enough evidence out there to show that SOMETHING is going on. However, I am not 100 percent convinced. I'm getting there, but I haven't quite reached the 100 percent mark yet.
1. If chemtrails are so obvious, why are there so many debunkers? I'm not talking about uninformed individuals who haven't heard of chemtrails or simply know about their existence and not much else and then try to write the whole thing off. I'm talking about the people who apparently read up on chemtrails, browse this forum, apparently see the same thing that we believe to be chemtrails, but still tirelessly say that chemtrails are simply contrails. Are they ALL just incredibly stupid? Are they ALL disinformation agents with an agenda or something to lose? Or do they have a point? Is it POSSIBLE that what everyone is seeing as chemtrails really are ice crystals that linger in the air longer than other ice crystals? Is there even the slightest chance that we've been wasting our time? Be honest.
2. I've seen what are apparently chemtrails on many occasions. I'm leaning towards them being actual chemicals secretly being sprayed in the air. I've seen them sit in the air for hours, spreading out, and settling into a haze. But is it theoretically possible for ice crystals to hang in the air for hours and spread out into a haze? Again, be honest. There's a lot of facets to the whole chemtrail issue, but it all seems to boil down to whether or not ice crystals are capable of doing what we're seeing in the sky all the time. I'm sure this must have been discussed before, but I'm just looking for a clear answer.
3. If chemicals are being sprayed from commercial airliners as well as military aircraft, how the hell are they keeping that secret? I've read apparent testimonies from supposed mechanics who have found "extra" equipment and tanks within planes and then were apparently threatened to not disclose this information. There are also other testimonies from higher ups in the airlines business who say they were approached by the government to secretly put in spraying equipment on various planes, for the good of the people, without giving reasons but making it clear that it must be secretive. How reliable are these reports? Is it theoretically possible for the government to pull something like this off when there are obviously lots of mechanics and technicians who have access to these planes? Are they ALL part of the conspiracy? If no one knows what I'm talking about, I'll try to find these quotes from various people in the airlines industry and post them here. We've seen commercial airliners doing what is apparently spraying, so we had to assume that they have clearly infiltrated the airline industry. But is it even possible that this never happened and that regular airlines that are apparently spraying us are just creating ice crystals that hang in the air for long periods of time and spread out?
I'm looking forward to your responses.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Eric on 11-15-2003] |
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halva
Joined: 04 Apr 2003
Posts: 513
Location: Greece |
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Sat Nov 15, 2003 3:15 pm
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Rather than giving a comprehensive answer, which would take time, and would be unnecessarily monopolistic, because I am sure all of us have our theories on this subject, one obvious answer as to how there can be so many debunkers is that the chemtrails issue has been piggybacked onto Cold War mindsets, such that Commies become chemmies. Reynolds' rat pack is held together by this reflex.
Over to someone else.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by halva on 11-15-2003] |
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PHXPilot
Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 800
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA |
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Sun Nov 16, 2003 12:41 am
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Hey Eric.
1. If you started a website claiming that dogs are actually disguised aliens from mars, you would get alot of debunkers there too. Its human nature to want to prove someone else wrong. And the easier a theory is to disprove, the more and more debunkers you are going to get. The sheer number of smart, informed, intelligent people disproving this theory should be enough to send up warning flags. If the theory had no holes, and was flawless, there would be no debunkers because they would have nothing to feed off of.
2. Contrails staying suspended in the air and spreading out over time has been documented all the way back to before WWII when aircraft started flying high enough to produce them. The B-17 crews tried despratly to find a way to keep these big huge billowy contrails from forming because 1) It was giving away their position to the enemy and 2) the contrails would last so long, and spread out so wide that it would form a very big cloud deck. So much so, that the B-17 formations had to find alternate routes home sometimes because they didnt want to fly through all the clouds they produced earlier. Lots of B-17s leaving persistant contrails + contrails spreading out and merging = hazy cloud layer. Lots of airliners and other aircraft leaving persistant contrails + contrails spreading out and merging = hazy cloud layer. They same way it has been throughout time. It IS normal, and has been observed as such.
3. They could not keep it a secret. There are FAR FAR FAR too many people involved in the succesful airline flight to keep a gigantic tank of chemicals a secret for more than 5 minutes. There are dozens of people looking over every inch of that aircraft while it is on the ground. If you had a gigantic tank of anything, it would be noted, investigated, and promptly revealed to everyone involved with the operation of the flight. This is completely nonsense to believe that an operation of the size needed to produce the chemtrail operation could stay secret for so long. The list of people that would know about within 1 hour is longer than I can possibly type out.
Conclusion: There are far too many holes in the chemtrail theory for me to take it as fact. Until this changes, I will continue to be highly, highly skeptical of "chemtrails" actually existing. |
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Eric
Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 10
Location: Connecticut |
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Sun Nov 16, 2003 4:16 am
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With only two replies, things aren't looking so good for the chemtrail believers side. I'm not jumping to any conclusions just yet however, and I'm still neutral on the subject. By the way Halva, what may be "unnecessarily monopolistic" to you seems like "obviously ignoring logical questions" to me. I'm sure there must be an intelligent chemtrail activist on here that can easily prove that there is no doubt chemtrails exist and that the concerns I brought up are irrelevent. Otherwise I don't see the logic in certain individuals being an activist on something which may possibly not exist. I wouldn't want to think that thousands (perhaps millions) of people have been getting worked up over floating water.
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halva
Joined: 04 Apr 2003
Posts: 513
Location: Greece |
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Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:16 am
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Eric, you are in collusion with PHX Pilot. |
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Wolf_Larson
Joined: 08 Aug 2003
Posts: 442
Location: The Sea |
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Sun Nov 16, 2003 4:10 pm
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quote:
Originally posted by halva:
Eric, you are in collusion with PHX Pilot.
Halva, by what do you base that on?
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halva
Joined: 04 Apr 2003
Posts: 513
Location: Greece |
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Sun Nov 16, 2003 4:53 pm
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Éf this were chemtrailtrackingusa all three of you by now would have been removed.
What do you want me to do now? Bait you into using cuss words so we can throw you off?
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Eric
Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 10
Location: Connecticut |
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Sun Nov 16, 2003 5:21 pm
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Halva: PHX and Wolf may be big debunkers around here, but believe it or not, I'm a genuine chemtrail believer who had a few questions. You made a huge mistake handling the thread the way you did. I started this thread as an actual chemtrail believer with some doubts, and now things are going downhill fast. I wasn't even TRYING to piss off the chemtrail fans, yet it still happened anyway because the believers are apparently overly-defensive, hyperactive individuals who WANT to believe in chemtrails, and don't want to find out whether or not they really exist, which is my only purpose. It doesn't help that I'm now being accused of being in some kind of secret pact with a stranger who answered my questions. Halva, it might be convenient to make yourself look better in front of others by accusing me of being a debunker in disguise, but just imagine how you now look in my eyes, and especially phxpilot, who obviously knows that he is not "in collusion" with me and now sees you as a laughable fanatic. What's even more sad is that you suggested I be thrown out because of this. You're not going to get rid of me easily Halva. I'm not going to resort to insults and implied accusations. I'm just going to keep repeating the same questions that I asked here and wait for some answers.
PS. Halva, your "collusion" theory makes no logical sense, because YOU'RE the one who replied to me first. You had a chance to prove that chemtrails exist and to prove that my fundemental questions about their existence are irrelevant and not an issue. Even if we WERE in collusion (which we're not) it shouldn't have mattered because you would have been able to easily write off any of my questions. But you didn't. That says a lot, and your accusations and further refusal to answer any of the questions, says even more. I'm not your enemy here, I'm not out to get you, these were actual, honest questions. I'm not going to forget about this thread, I'm not going to forget about the questions I asked because they will be repeated endlessly, and I'm not going to forget about the laughable responses I got.
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halva
Joined: 04 Apr 2003
Posts: 513
Location: Greece |
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Sun Nov 16, 2003 5:40 pm
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Eric you have lost credibility with me, proving yourself not only a debunker but also a liar. You are disingenuous and I have better things to do than waste my time with you. If others here want to try to humour you, they are free to do so.
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PHXPilot
Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 800
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA |
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Sun Nov 16, 2003 8:38 pm
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Eric asks a question
Halva refuses to answer
PHXPilot answers
Halva accuses PHXPilot and Eric of being in collusion
Wolf_Larson asks Halva why he believes that
Halva rants about how everyone else in the thread should be banned
Did that course of action make any logical sense to you Halva? Because everyone else seems to be missing it.
Eric, everyone that has heard of this theory has, at some point, pondered all the questions that you have laid out. I, and many others, have publicly asked the believers to answer them numerous times. But not once have we gotten straight, and logical answers. We just keep getting what Halva has dished out here. It is my opinion that this is because there are no logical answers to those questions that would support the chemtrail theory. All it does it expose flaws in it.
I can't blame the believers for getting so defensive when they are asked these questions. I would be pretty stressed out too if I couldnt prove a theory, or stop people from exposing flaws in a theory, that I had put so much of my life into.
Im still waiting for that day when the questions you asked will be answered. Will that day come? Who knows. But if my year browsing this forum has tought me anything, its that you shouldnt keep your hopes up. |
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Wolf_Larson
Joined: 08 Aug 2003
Posts: 442
Location: The Sea |
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Mon Nov 17, 2003 3:47 am
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quote:
Originally posted by Eric:
1. If chemtrails are so obvious, why are there so many debunkers? I'm not talking about uninformed individuals who haven't heard of chemtrails or simply know about their existence and not much else and then try to write the whole thing off. I'm talking about the people who apparently read up on chemtrails, browse this forum, apparently see the same thing that we believe to be chemtrails, but still tirelessly say that chemtrails are simply contrails. Are they ALL just incredibly stupid? Are they ALL disinformation agents with an agenda or something to lose? Or do they have a point? Is it POSSIBLE that what everyone is seeing as chemtrails really are ice crystals that linger in the air longer than other ice crystals? Is there even the slightest chance that we've been wasting our time? Be honest.
Let me turn that question around a bit. If Chemtrails are so obvious, why aren’t there more believers?
Actually I think that the ratio of chemtrail believers to debunkers has been fairly steady for a while. Furthermore, if you look through the forum archives you will see that there were a lot more of both a while back.
Eventually it all boils down to politics and/ or science. I personally would prefer to discuss the basic scientific principles behind the various chemtrails phenomena. However, I have observed that many people believe in chemtrails because they represent an extension of their political beliefs. Under those conditions, the debate tends to wander off track.
quote:
2. I've seen what are apparently chemtrails on many occasions. I'm leaning towards them being actual chemicals secretly being sprayed in the air. I've seen them sit in the air for hours, spreading out, and settling into a haze. But is it theoretically possible for ice crystals to hang in the air for hours and spread out into a haze? Again, be honest. There's a lot of facets to the whole chemtrail issue, but it all seems to boil down to whether or not ice crystals are capable of doing what we're seeing in the sky all the time. I'm sure this must have been discussed before, but I'm just looking for a clear answer.
Eric, even Thermit, the owner of this board has admitted that persistent contrails can form under the right weather conditions.
The key thing is: how common are the right weather conditions?
One other concept that often gets overlooked is the phenomena of super saturation (or more properly termed super cooling). This is when the percentage of water vapor in the air as measured by relative humidity is greater than 100%. While super saturation is difficult (but not impossible) to achieve in a liquid solution, It is a lot more common in the upper atmosphere than people realize. This is because the overall density of the gaseous mixture is low enough and the air is relatively clean enough to keep the water vapor from crystallizing around a nucleus.
That doesn’t mean that there could not be chemicals being sprayed, but it does offer an alternative explanation for the observed phenomena.
quote:
3. If chemicals are being sprayed from commercial airliners as well as military aircraft, how the hell are they keeping that secret? I've read apparent testimonies from supposed mechanics who have found "extra" equipment and tanks within planes and then were apparently threatened to not disclose this information. There are also other testimonies from higher ups in the airlines business who say they were approached by the government to secretly put in spraying equipment on various planes, for the good of the people, without giving reasons but making it clear that it must be secretive. How reliable are these reports? Is it theoretically possible for the government to pull something like this off when there are obviously lots of mechanics and technicians who have access to these planes? Are they ALL part of the conspiracy? If no one knows what I'm talking about, I'll try to find these quotes from various people in the airlines industry and post them here. We've seen commercial airliners doing what is apparently spraying, so we had to assume that they have clearly infiltrated the airline industry. But is it even possible that this never happened and that regular airlines that are apparently spraying us are just creating ice crystals that hang in the air for long periods of time and spread out?
I'm looking forward to your responses.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Eric on 11-15-2003]
I think PHXpilot covered that one. If it is being done, it is being done by a group outside of the commercial airline fleet. If the military is doing it, then obviously there has to be a suport infrastructure somewhere. If the old adage is true "it take 100 men to put one foot soldier on the fron line." Then there has to be a support group for the planes and pilots. Who they are and where they are has not been disclosed as of yet.
But as you can see by the response to this thread, no one here is really interested in debating chemtrails. Currently, the debates on this board center around political isues like the N.W.O.
There is a real good debate on global warming going on over in the chemtrails forum right now, BTW.
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halva
Joined: 04 Apr 2003
Posts: 513
Location: Greece |
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Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:22 am
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And I can take credit for bringing it here. |
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Eric
Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 10
Location: Connecticut |
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Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:13 am
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You can also take credit for bringing pure idiocy to this thread. I've already proven that your "collusion" accusation made no sense, and even if it were true it wouldn't be an issue because you should have been able to answer my questions whether I was in league with PHX or not. Face it, you were too lazy to answer my questions, or the questions were a little too damaging for your own beliefs, so you resorted to nonsense "collusion" garbage. I've lost all credibility you say? Lost all credibility in what exactly? I'm the one asking questions here, I'm not trying to look credible. You're the one who has lost all credibility after your hilarious display in this thread. Also, how am I a liar? And how has it been proven? I'm on to you Halva. Explain yourself.
Also, I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I'm no debunker. One of the things I have noticed is that almost every time I see what looks like heavy spraying, the next day it rains. The last 3 times I saw the apparent spraying, it rained the next day. This can't be written off as a coincidence. If the spraying is real, then the spraying is either causing the rain or the spraying is done in advance of rain so the chemicals will get into the groundwater and ecosystem easier. Unless someone can prove that persistant contrails form mainly on days before rainfall, I'm leaning towards those lines in the sky being chemicals. In response to Wolf, I am actually interested in intelligent discourses about chemtrail existence, and not to use the phenomenom to further or re-affirm my political beliefs. It's too bad that laughable threads like this and laughable, psychotically defensive fanatics like Halva have to give the whole chemtrail issue a bad name.
Wolf: Thanks for daring to be "unnecessarily monopolistic" and attempting to answer my questions. From Halva's prior psychotic banning speech, I figured you were a debunker. I think it's obvious that "groups outside of the commercial airline fleet" would be responsible for the airline industry infiltration (if it is in fact taking place) but how would the airline fleet's mechanics and technicians not know about it? And if they do know about it, how could such a massive operation be kept secret from the general public? It just doesn't seem plausible.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Eric on 11-17-2003] |
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emfx13
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 959
Location: Hayward Ca.U.S.A. |
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Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:16 pm
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Hello eric!The chemtrail issue i touchy one.To date there is no proving they "exsist" or "not",it's up to you through personal observation to find your answer's until the truth come's out.I hear everyone say "how can they hide an operation of this scope",well if you think the government "can't" hide it,then you better think again!They are even better at stealing secret's(spying).This government can,has,and will keep it's secret's,to think anything less is absurd,and very underestimating of them,And very over-estimating your knowledge...bad combo.Sorry if you felt attacked in any way,eric.Here's a little theory of mine: I've already shared some information with people,so i thought i'd post something now. Maybe some of you would help research these subject's i'm about to present?
I'll tell you this much....we have been seeing military operation's in our sky's without a doubt (I know duhhh!)But the contrail's are just that...contrail's.Formed by increased "MILITARY" air traffic."CHEMTRAIL'S" do exsist though,just not in the abundance that they're being reported.I'd go as far as to say that 99% of the "contrail's" are mistaken as "chemtrail's".It's the 1% that we have to watch out for,and i know many of you have seen actual spraying.
let me explain...Why the pattern's/grids in the sky?Because these are "simulated" bombing run's/military tactical drill's,meaning they are running several urban warfare simulation's over your town.And god know's what other type of war game's they are running?This is just as terrible if not worse than what we thought was happening,don't you think?If you compare some of the picture's from the gulf war and many other conflict's,they show several bomber's leaving pattern's in the sky that look alot like what we are seeing over our head's here in the State's today,what most people mistake for "Chemtrail's".They kind of look the same don't they?(If you haven't seen the pic's i'll post them soon)Why The simularity in pattern's?Because these are the same type's of bomber formation's and method's they use during combat situation's.The design has not changed much over the year's,the only major difference is in the new type's of jet engine's,they are much more powerful,but they also leave huge amount of "contrail"in their wake,and the type of fuel is also different that is used.These are contributing factor's of "persistent contrail's".
I believe "this" operation started back in 97/98.After the "supposed" terrorist attack This operation was deployed in full force,hence the numerous chemtrail report's.People are not USED to seeing military operation's on this scale, or the amount of "increased military air traffic".This all seem's new to most people and cause's the majority of confusion amongst chemtrail actavist's.Until 9-11 WTC no one really knew what war was or a terrorist!What is "new" about this though is the NEW ERA OF WARFARE!It's taking place at home...on american soil!Possibly against it's own people?As you all know there are terrorist's living here in the country,not all of them are arabic.
If thing's get any worse i could be seen as a threat because of my veiw's and the doubt's that i have about our government!!
So for the last few year's i believe this is taking place; They are military mapping every city street in the U.S.-Monitoring our purchasing,veiwing and social habit's trying to locate "potential terrorist's"(WHICH I AM NOT!)-REPLACING OUR FREEDOM'S FOR(a false sense of) SECURITY-Testing new technology's over populated area's-Assessing urban warfare data,probably the type where they drop a simulated bomb/chemical over a city,feed the computer the data to get the most likely scenerio in the event of an actual attack.The list goes on... This would take awhile to gather the data and run simulation's,a few year's at least if you think about it?Probably as long as the chemtrail activity has been reported?
Now the real crazy part come's into play...chemtrail's.Well let's just say if you wanted to control the Weather where would you start?Well "Contrail's" are already a factor so let's start there.You can't effectivly "control" the weather if you just start dumping a s!@# load of chemical's in the air,everyday pollution is testament to that,there is no stopping the runaway effect's of it,and people would notice the spraying if they tried dumping the amount needed to get the desired effect(explained below)."Well we are noticing the spraying" you say?That's the beauty of it.... "they are just Contrail's" and the chemtrailing is only a minimal necessity that is insidiously hidden behind a natural phenomenon.One purpose of the chemtrailing is about weather modification/controlling it.The spraying is used the same way you would seed a cloud to make it rain,do the same thing to the contrail to increase the amount of coverage.Or decrease the amount of coverage.Because to truly "control" the weather you have to be able to make it stop raining or break up stormfront's aswell.What's in the spray is another question?Perhap's it has something to do with polymer's and fibril's people are finding?I'm sure depleting a stormfront is a little more difficult and chemical based than the cloud seeding process?Something has to absorb the moisture,and i'm sure it ain't good!
It's deniability at it's finest... the perfect cover story, a way to pull off the operation in "broad daylight"right in front of your face----* and debunk those who dare say "Chemtrail's" or "we are getting sprayed"!By hiding the reality of the actual spraying amongst a natural process.So why the need to increase the "contrail" coverage?
Now we move on to another aspect of "why". Non-lethal warfare:Holographic projection's.Most of you know about some of the program's the military has on this type of technology,these are operation's i feel are NOW being conducted. They have been trying to make an effective stealth fighter for year's as you all know,but the damn Plane itself,"contrail's" and heat signature's give up all hope's of being invisible to radar and ground observation.Not if you could perfect a way to beam the image of the background color of the sky, over a desired object/plane,making it vanish from sight,contrail and all?Creating the illusion of invisibility for someone observing from ground level.Or a squadron of holographic fighter's that aren't really there?Invisible to radar but visible from the ground,the result of that would be absolute panic!I wont go into all the use's of holographic technology and it's many possible military application's... right now.The atmosphere is so saturated,the haze is so thick,that i bet it would make a great "screen" to project holographic image's on?Holographic projection's might explain "some" of the recent "orb" sighting's and ufo report's?
Some people have claimed to see plane's vanish "contrail and all"(I'm one of those people).
To me all of the above(if you have taken it into consideration?) just seem's like a perfect way to acheive several goal's at once,while useing what's at hand to hide the spraying and a way to effectivly use those natural "contrail" emession's that are so troublsome when trying to be stealthy.
I came to these conclusion's by questioning people that have been in the military,and are familiar with avionic's,who have actually seen bomber's in action,and/or served during time's of war.Also i gained alot of knowledge researching "natural contrail" formation,something i recommend everyone start's doing."Chemtrail's" i hate to say are real.And "persistant contrail's"also.
I know aswell as many other's...that there is "some truth behind chemtrail's.I have seen through my binocular's,the on-off-on-off type of spraying coming from a nozzle from the "side" of a plane!This plane was low enough to see alot of detail with the naked eye,it was pure white and unmarked and definatly had a spray apperatus on it.It was "sputtering" off and on as it passed over head,then as it got a distance away it just started FLOODING out leaving a huge plume behind it(i wish i got a pic)!This is one of many sighting's i've had,my freind Billy D was there for a great deal of them.
Anyway's this is not the complete theory that i have, i will post a more detailed version of it later,along with some of Billy D's input also. It's alway's better to have backup when dealing with these subject's than it is to deal with it alone,either way someone's alway's going to try and say your nut's...I kind of don't blame them it sound's nut's!
Well thank's for reading my ranting's,i've put alot of thought into them but it's still just theory.Eddie(EMFX13)
Here's a couple of link's to check out:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000EF7E7-BE61-1EDC-8E1C809EC588EF21
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/6583/project068.html
http://www.fas.org/bwc/nonlethal.htm
http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacg i/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.html&r=0&p=1&f=S&l=50&Query=chemtrail&d=PG01
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc/aviation/
http://www.pr.wpafb.af.mil/JP8plus100.html
http://airliners.net/
http://www.astro.ku.dk/~holger/ICSA/
[Edited 1 times, lastly by emfx13 on 11-17-2003] |
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Edufer
Joined: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 198
Location: Malagueno, Cordoba, Argentina |
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Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:57 pm
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quote:
I have seen through my binocular's,the on-off-on-off type of spraying coming from a nozzle from the "side" of a plane!This plane was low enough to see alot of detail with the naked eye,it was pure white and unmarked and definatly had a spray apperatus on it.It was "sputtering" off and on as it passed over head,then as it got a distance away it just started FLOODING out leaving a huge plume behind it
I am not a believer, although I am not interested in debunking Chemtrails either. It looks to me as an inoffensive and nice way to spend free time discussing the existence of percieved sightings.
But, didn't crossed you mind that the plane you saw had been in an emergency situation, and was releasing fuel before attempting a forced landing? The material released, came from the plane's body, or from the underside of its wings? If from the body, from the front, middle or rear part, and from the bottom or the sides? As it was flying low, and you had binoculars, you must have seen this in detail.
I was not there, of course, so I have no way to say if this was the case, and I will believe in waht you say, but planes in emergency always release their fuel at low altitude when they are near the targetted airport. Did you check with the airpot authorities to see if that was the case?
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