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the professor
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 1164
Location: heartland USA |
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 Fri Feb 13, 2004 1:48 am
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I'm on a roll with this Oakville Washington incident that took place in the mid nineties. I personally don't believe most of the trails if any that I see are chemtrails but that is not to say that it hasn't happened on a smaller scale. For that I believe to be true in several circumstances. For those to say this never occurs I beg to differ and look at what these folks are saying.
http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm311438.html |
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Yaak
Joined: 11 Mar 2003
Posts: 45
Location: Terlingua, Texas, USA |
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Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:17 am
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When I look at these and similar facts, then look at the mess in the sky that wasn't there a few years ago, and consider how corrupt our government has become, it's easy for me to understand why many people believe that the white lines above are something more than contrails. |
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Mech
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 8237
Location: THE 4th REICH USA |
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Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:27 am
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My frustration is with those that only accept what THEY considered so-called "scientific facts"(sic) when MANY things are beyond explanation and/or CLASSIFIED.
Ive said it before and I'll say it again. Planes DON'T leave contrails at 8000 ft on a 70 degree day that last for hours and hours or turns into a scummy haze.
They are SOMETHING ELSE...not "Contrails" |
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the professor
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 1164
Location: heartland USA |
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Fri Feb 13, 2004 5:51 pm
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Well all I can say is it doesn't get any more certain when you have an entire town on record, with samples taken and also with law enforcement behind the people on record. As far as the lines and so forth I'm thinking possible atmospheric changes or jet designs that have changed within the last fifteen years. However we have a vast record of our GOV testing enlisted men and civilized populated areas within the last fifty years alone. Remember the nuke testing and having troops face the blast, thats on video as well. I use to enjoy debating with PHX about how you could easily put high spraying into practice as far as applying it day in and day out I'm not so sure because by now you would have someone with undeniable proof speaking out specifically about their day to day operations. |
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JerseyBluEyz
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 1257
Location: Northeast |
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Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:22 pm
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quote:
Originally posted by the professor:
Well all I can say is it doesn't get any more certain when you have an entire town on record, with samples taken and also with law enforcement behind the people on record.
Quite true.
Just think what would happen IF someone came out admitting to a spraying operation! That person would be attacked as a liar and quite possible even shut up for good! For spraying to even be believed by the public, it would take more than just one person stepping forward.
And speaking of PHX Pilot, I never did quite figure out if he was banned or what? Anyone? And what about Pacer? Did he give up on this board?
[Edited 1 times, lastly by JerseyBluEyz on 02-13-2004] |
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JerseyBluEyz
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 1257
Location: Northeast |
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Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:46 pm
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quote:
Originally posted by the professor:
something else to look at as well...
http://www.sonic.net/~west/biowar.txt
Whoa! I highly recommend scanning this one! |
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letxa2000
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 588
Location: U.S. citizen in Mexico |
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Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:37 pm
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quote:
Originally posted by JerseyBluEyz:
For spraying to even be believed by the public, it would take more than just one person stepping forward.
Probably true, though it would depend on who stepped forward. 1000 people from chemtrailcentral might not do much, but a general or two would get some serious press even in the mainstream media. And the public would be interested. |
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Swamp Gas
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 4254
Location: On a Hill in the Lowlands |
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Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:05 pm
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I know there are some articles in mainstream newspapers, and I'll contiunue the search.
I had an environmental writer at The New Jersey Bergen Record interested in aerosol spraying, because she had noticed more activity, but her editor quashed the story. I wonder how much of that occurs in journalism?
Meanwhile, an audio clip I got off of CNN about a year ago.
http://www.noble-gas.com/contrail.mp3
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PHXPilot
Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 800
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA |
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Fri Feb 13, 2004 11:40 pm
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Hey there. Was I banned? Nope. Did I give up on this board? Nope. I've been checking up on this site every once in a while to see if theres anything new and interesting, which, in my opinion, there hasnt been. It really looks like its become quite desolate and deserted. But dont worry, Im still here.
Why havent I been posting? Because what good will it do? Some of you are simply too set in your ways to change. Ever. Others, like The Professer, still have a scientifically inclined mind and still take a good look at all the evidence, not just the repetative "why shouldnt this be happening" ,"It could theoretically be happening." "The government is evil" "Prove it isnt happening".
Like Mechs statement "Ive said it before and I'll say it again. Planes DON'T leave contrails at 8000 ft on a 70 degree day that last for hours and hours or turns into a scummy haze."
I have NEVER seen ANY aircraft leave contrails or any other sort of trail at 8000 feet. NEVER NEVER NEVER. It simply doesnt happen. I was out flying yesterday at around 8 thousand feet on my way up to northern arizona. There is NOTHING flying at that low of an altitude except small prop aircraft like mine. For Gods sake, I had to divert my flight path a few times because of moutains around that altitude. NOTHING is trailing ANYTHING at 8 thousand feet. If anything WAS, it would be IMMEDIATLY noted by EVERY PILOT WITHIN 100 MILES. Because it SIMPLY DOESNT HAPPEN.
Nothing is wrong with what Mech says he saw except for the 8000 foot part. And its easy to mistake altitudes. Very easy. High altudes are very easy to mistake as lower than they really are. And YES, contrails can stay for many many hours and spread out into a haze. That has been observed since WWII when aircraft started going high enough to make them. Its all normal scientifically observed phenomenon.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/508401/L/
But, again, I can explain that over and over again, but some of you will continue thinking that you are seeing trails at 8000 feet. Theres nothing I can do about that. I dont care. So, I feel no need to jump on here just to go back and forth with the regulars on here anymore. It simply serves no purpose. But if a new person comes on, and asks questions, and looks for answers, and shows an open mind that looks like he is honestly looking for answers, then I will be happy to chat.
If you actually want to talk, Im all ears, and Im willing to have a mature discussion on the realities of what you are seeing. But Im not going to come on here just to argue in circles.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by PHXPilot on 02-13-2004] |
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letxa2000
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 588
Location: U.S. citizen in Mexico |
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Sat Feb 14, 2004 12:35 am
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quote:
Originally posted by PHXPilot:
Nothing is wrong with what Mech says he saw except for the 8000 foot part. And its easy to mistake altitudes. Very easy. High altudes are very easy to mistake as lower than they really are.
I'm a private pilot myself and you're completely right about mistaking altitude even when you're flying. If it's hard for us pilots to judge vertical distance when we're flying, how do they know from the ground the altitude of the planes they say are creating contrails?
How does everyone here come to the conclusion that these contrails are occuring at 8000 feet? You guys have some portable radars, or what's the deal? |
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PHXPilot
Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 800
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA |
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Sat Feb 14, 2004 7:42 pm
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Ok, let me take this opportunity to explain some things about contrails. Whenever you see an aircraft trailing somthing through the sky, it is going to be caused by 1 of 4 things normally. If you ever see an airliner at ANY altitude leaving a trail, just look back at my list and figure it out.
#1: Contrails. These are most common. They form due to engine exaust in the vey cold and humid upper atmosphere. They rarely form below 20,000 ft although it has been known to happen. As long as conditions are favorable, they could theoretically form while the aircraft is on the ground. We still know little about contrails and under what conditions they form. 2 aircraft at the same altitude and very near to each other can still cause 2 very different types of contrails due to differences in fuel type, engine type, speed, throttle setting, EGT, etc... There are dozens of variables to take into account, hence our unreliability in predicting them. Contrails (due to the nature of them being basically being clouds) can stay visible for many many hours and may spread and thin out, merging with other contrails to form a cloud deck or haze layer. This has been observed and reported since WWII. Here are photos of aircraft leaving these types of contrails: http://www.airliners.net/open.file/506836/L/ http://www.airliners.net/open.file/508401/L/ http://www.airliners.net/open.file/425455/L/ http://www.airliners.net/open.file/332946/L/
#2: Aerodynamic Contrails: These are contrails that are caused soley by the wake of an aircraft changing the air pressure therefore causing the air the reach condensation point. These types of contrails have nothing to do with the engines. These are much rarer than ordinary contrails and need very specific conditions to form. If you see an aircraft leaving a trail that doesnt seem to be emitting from the engine, this would mean you are seeing an aerodynamic contrail. The rest of the characteristics of these trails are the same as a normal contrail due to them being made up of the same stuff, just formed under different circumstances. Here are some photos of aerodynamic contrails. http://www.airliners.net/open.file/496750/L/ http://www.airliners.net/open.file/278223/L/ http://www.airliners.net/open.file/379688/L/
#3: Wake Vortexes. These are formed at much lower altitudes than contrails. Unlike contrails, they are not made up of ice crystals. They are formed most often by aircraft landing or taking off although they have been known to appear in other phases of flight. They are caused when the air at the wingtips or around the edge of a flap experiences a sudden change in air pressure, thereby causing the moisture air to reach a point where it becomes visible. They rarely last more than 15 seconds or so due to the reason for their existance fading away. If you watch heavy aircraft at you local airport on a very humid and cold day, you have a good chance of seeing these types of trails. IMO, they are extremely interesting and awesome to stand underneath when they left overhead by a landing airliner. They create a very unique sound. Here are some photos of trails caused by wake vortexes. http://www.airliners.net/open.file/498719/L/ http://www.airliners.net/open.file/464227/L/ http://www.airliners.net/open.file/428117/L/
#4: Fuel Dump. This is pretty self-explainatory. An aircraft needs to land earlier than expected, so it dumps fuel overboard in order to lower itself to its maximum landing weight. These trails can last anywhere from 2 seconds to several minutes depending on the winds and other weather conditions. http://www.airliners.net/open.file/449004/L/ http://www.airliners.net/open.file/144591/L/ http://www.airliners.net/open.file/030316/L/
OK, so, whenever you see an aircraft leaving a trail, one of these things will be the culprit. If you see somthing that doesnt seem to have an answer that doesnt fit with any of the explainations, try and get a photo of it, and I will take a look at it. But, barring any smoke canisters or other abnormal testing as seen on the NASA 747 and C-130 photos, everything you see in the sky is a result of one of these 4 occurances.
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Mech
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 8237
Location: THE 4th REICH USA |
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Sat Feb 14, 2004 8:02 pm
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PHX Pilot..I have NEVER seen ANY aircraft leave contrails or any other sort of trail at 8000 feet. NEVER NEVER NEVER. It simply doesnt happen.
Well that's good. I certainly have.
These are NOT "wake voricies" "contrails" or otherwise. They leave something else.
I can determine altitude very well, seeing how ive worked in and around airports, as well as clibming mountains as a hobby.
It makes no difference to me if PHX pilot believes "there are no Chemtrails because i'm a pilot and I know the "facts" vibe. Heard that one a thousandd times.
CLASSIFIED projects against the American people happen all the time.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Mech on 02-14-2004] |
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PHXPilot
Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 800
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA |
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Sat Feb 14, 2004 8:13 pm
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Well that's good. I certainly have.
Look, I have no doubt that you saw an aircraft leaving a trail. But I am almost certain that you are incorrect about your 8000 ft estimate. And even if, by some chance, you are correct about your 8000 foot estimate, one of the 4 phenomenons I outlined above are no doubt the culprit.
You saw an aircraft
You saw it leave a trail
You saw it at 8000 ft
It was not caused by any of the 4 stated above
The first 2 statements I believe fully. The 3rd I question, the 4th I severly doubt. You have NO PROOF OR EVIDENCE of the final 2 statements. Just heresay. Unless you have some proof of this 8000 foot aircraft leaving a non-natural trail, I will be forced to continue being skeptical of such a statement.
It makes no difference to me if PHX pilot believes "there are no Chemtrails because i'm a pilot and I know the "facts" vibe. Heard that one a thousandd times.
And it makes no difference to me if you believe "There are chemtrails because I climb mountains and have been around airports so I know more facts than the people I am accusing." I've heard it a thousand times.
CLASSIFIED projects against the American people happen all the time.
How does that even matter?!?! Honestly! That is a downright HORRIBLE reason to believe ANYTHING. I am 100% sure that classified projects happen all the time. But you have sort out the viable theories from the utter crap. Just because the government has been known to be shady doesnt mean that any accusation against them automatically is found true.
Try using that argument in court.
"Tell me Mr. Mech, what evidence do you have that this man killed this woman?"
"Well, your honor, people kill people all the time"
THATS NOT EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING.
[Edited 2 times, lastly by PHXPilot on 02-14-2004] |
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