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theseeker
Joined: 25 Jul 2000
Posts: 3403
Location: Damnit...I'm a doctor jim |
Possibly more insight into how hole punch clouds form
 Mon Aug 13, 2001 6:23 am
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Caption reads above these pic's is "why ultra-lights should not do formation flying with 747's"
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Thermit
Joined: 08 Jul 2000
Posts: 3136
Location: Texas |
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Mon Aug 13, 2001 4:11 pm
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So you are thinking that the wingtip vortices somehow cause the holepunches?
The way I think of it is a chain reaction. The conditions become conducive to ice crystal growth in an area of the sky. This could be triggered by a contrail or a change in conditions. This process continues taking moisture from the surrounding area to build the ice crystals, which get heavy and begin to fall. So you wind up with something looking like this...
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theseeker
Joined: 25 Jul 2000
Posts: 3403
Location: Damnit...I'm a doctor jim |
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Mon Aug 13, 2001 10:08 pm
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Dr. Minnis described the science here
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum13/HTML/000026.html
I found those photos and seems that after the plane flys by the smoke a hole appears similar to the hole punch cloud photos...naturally ice crystals are not going to be moved as quickly but to me the plane could create this effect in alto-cirrus clouds as it did in the smoke...
I have been digesting this from a middle school student in Oklahoma city...quite interesting
http://bmb-fs1.biochem.okstate.edu/OAS/OJAS/jdavis.htm
T/S |
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toxdoc
Joined: 17 Jan 2001
Posts: 23
Location: Williamstown, KY,USA |
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Mon Aug 13, 2001 10:13 pm
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The movie "Pushing Tin" has a neat scene illustrating what happens when one stands in the wake of a 747 at take-off. Imagine a person caught in that vortex pictured by T/S. |
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Thermit
Joined: 08 Jul 2000
Posts: 3136
Location: Texas |
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Mon Aug 13, 2001 10:24 pm
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Thanks for stopping by toxdoc.
I'm thinking Minnis is saying the process of ice precipitation causes a vortex, as opposed to being caused by vortex. Still need to read the student's report though...
quote:
So, when the plane flies through it, the exhaust causes the droplets to rapidly change into ice. As soon as that happens, the newly formed ice crystals start to grow very quickly and become too large to be suspended by the ambient wind. Therefore, they fall out in the form of precipitation as you see in the "vortex".
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theseeker
Joined: 25 Jul 2000
Posts: 3403
Location: Damnit...I'm a doctor jim |
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Mon Aug 13, 2001 11:17 pm
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Look at this....
"The story from Delta on the LD-3 FOD is that the container was sitting on the ramp, the L1011 was at
idle when a company B757 starting to taxi away and blew the LD-3 across the ramp. I suppose the LD-3
would have gone right through the engine if it hadn't just been idling! Damage was minimal to the engine (just the inlet)."
Thermit I'm just wondering if indirectly since the wake of the jet formed a hole in the smoke, somehow these same stimuli are at play in the hole punch cloud phenom...I certainly was not questioning Dr. Minnis explanation...and why I included "possibly" in the header of this post...
T/S
[Edited 1 times, lastly by theseeker on 08-13-2001] |
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