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Boomer Chick
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 407
Location: Colorado |
Peak Oil -- VERY IMPORTANT PLEASE READ!
 Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:21 pm
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Dear members,
This, of all the world scenarios, is the crux of our soon-changing world! Please read the other four pages and their links to get the reality and realization that life as we know it will be changing very soon! This is not a scare tactic -- it is knowledge we should all have and know in order to be prepared.
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/Index.html
Page 5: Managing the Crash/Coping with the Ramifications
How am I supposed to maintain a positive mental attitude now that I know industrial civilization is about to collapse? How should I prepare emotionally?
When the implications of Peak Oil hit me, I was pretty scared. I felt as though my whole future had just been drop kicked in one fell swoop. It took me a couple of days for the initial feeling of semi-panic to wear off.
The only way we are going to effectively cope with the end of the oil age is effectively cope with our fear and how we view what is to come.
Dealing with Fear
According to author Tony Robbins, fear carries a message:
Fear is simply the anticipation that something that's going to happen soon needs to be prepared for. In the words of the Boy Scout motto, "Be prepared." We need either to prepare to cope with the situation, or to do something to change it. The tragedy is that most people either try to deny their fear, or they wallow in it. Neither of these approaches is respecting the message that fear is trying to deliver, so it will continue to pursue you as it tries to get its message across. You don't want to surrender to fear and amplify it by starting to think of the worst that could happen, nor do you want to pretend it's not there.
The solution to fear, Robbins writes, is:
Review what you were feeling fearful about and evaluate what you must do to prepare yourself mentally. Figure out what actions you need to take to deal with the situation in the best possible way. Sometimes we've done all the preparation we could for something; there's nothing else we can do - but we still sit around in fear. This is the point when you must use the antidote to fear: you must make a decision to have faith, knowing you've done all you can to prepare for whatever you're fearing.
Personally, I have come to believe that our external reality is essentially a mirror of our internal reality. If you walk around vibrating fear, you will attract external circumstances that exacerbate your fear. We tend to get what we rehearse. For this reason, it is of paramount importance that we strive for states of consciousness more productive than fear.
Consider the Collapse of Oil Based Civilization an Opportunity Rather than a Tragedy
Most of us in consumer based countries like the U.S. are actually very nice people. In our hearts, we really do believe in ideals such as equality, brotherhood, and justice. We would never abuse, mistreat, or kill somebody just to get something of theirs. However, to support our oil based consumer lifestyle, our government goes out and does these things for us.
If the average American could feel the suffering that went into producing every piece of plastic in their home, every gallon of oil in their gas tank, and every piece of food on their dinner table, they would likely be sick to their stomach and would be willing to do whatever it takes to change things.
Peak Oil will force us to change things. Peak Oil does mean that the end of the world as we know it is at our doorstep. It also means that we have a chance to create a new world in which humanity lives in harmony with itself and the earth. Such a lifestyle is no longer simply "the right thing to do." It is now a necessity if we wish to survive as a species.
In The Truth about the War and Oil: The Coming Global Energy Crisis, author Stephen Hamilton Bergin takes an optimistic line that a better world will rise out the ashes.
According to Bergin, some kind of crisis is almost to be welcomed to dispose of worthless government and kleptocratic management, leading to some form of a new better life for the survivors.
In this regard, the experiences of former slaves following the collapse of slavery may hold some insight for us. When the system collapsed, many former slaves experienced considerable anxiety. After all, the plantation system was all that they had known, and all that their parents, grandparents and so forth had known. Many wandered nervously: What was going to replace the plantation system? How would they get their food? For whom would they work? Did they have the skills to survive in this new way of life? What would happen to their families?
You may find yourself asking these same questions in regards to what life after the oil crash will be like. The fact that we find ourselves in a situation analogous to that of slaves on the verge of freedom is not all that surprising. While we are not bonded by chains of iron, most of us are bonded by the chains of a debt-based, oil fueled civilization. The collapse of this civilization may provide us with a chance for true freedom.
In this regard, can't recommend enough that you read this excerpt from the "Last Days of Ancient Sunlight" by Thom Hartmann.
What are some steps that I can take in the next few days to begin addressing this situation?
The following list is by no means exhaustive. These are just some simple steps you can begin taking immediately.
(Listed in no particular order)
1. Educate yourself about Peak Oil and its ramifications. Read through the sites linked to in this site. Consider obtaining copies of books such The Party's Over: War, Oil, and the Fate of Industrial Civilizations by Richard Heinberg.
2. Educate others. If you're not sure how to go about doing so, consider forwarding them this site.
3. Seek out like minded folks. If you're not sure where to start, you may want to join the Yahoo group "Running on Empty 2." When I first learned about Peak Oil, that was the first place I went. I found the members of the group very friendly, helpful and patient with "newbies."
4. Perform Google searches for Peak Oil whenever you get the chance. As more people search for "Peak Oil", the folks at Google will take notice. This may result in increased mainstream media coverage.
5. Adopt a vegetarian/ vegan diet, or at least reduce your meat consumption as much as you can.
6. Start using your bicycle or public transportation instead of your car, whenever possible.
7. Limit your purchase of consumer items to those that you really need .
8. Reduce your use of electricity as much as possible. Consider investing in items such solar powered lanterns, battery chargers, radios, hot water heaters, laptop chargers, bicycled powered generators etc.
9. Consider converting your vehicle to Biodiesal.
10. Consider taking an organic farming class or joining a local food co-op.
11. Begin learning basic emergency medical procedures.
12. Investigate alternative forms of health care such as bioenergetic healing, self hypnosis etc. . .
13. Reduce your debt load as much as possible.
14. Begin thinking how you are going to survive through blackouts, food/water shortages and economic breakdowns.
15. If you own your home, start conducting research about installing solar panels or windmills.
What are some steps we can take as a society to deal with Peak Oil? What are some public policies that, if implemented, will help us manage this crash instead of just running into it?
Peak Oil is going to happen. People are going to die. We have waited way too long to have any chance at stopping it altogether.
We may be able to minimize the amount of suffering while maximizing the chances of building a successful post-oil civilization if we implement appropriate public policies such as:
A. Civilized Measures to Support Population Reduction
The primary cause of the looming energy crisis is the fact that the world has more people than can be supported in a steady state renewable energy environment. The obvious solution is to reduce the world's population in the most civilized way possible.
According to Dale Alan Pfeifer:
…conditions will deteriorate so badly that the surviving human population would be a negligible fraction of the present population. And those survivors would suffer from the trauma of living through the death of their civilization, their neighbors, their friends and their families. Those survivors will have seen their world crushed into nothing.
In other words, if we do not reduce our population in an intelligent way, Mother Nature will do the job for us. We can do it ourselves if we take measures to:
1. Empower women to control the reproductive capacity of their bodies.
2. Inform people of the true nature and scope of the crisis. Many will voluntarily refrain from having children if they are aware of our situation.
3. Find practical, humane, and just solutions to immigration. In the US, the overwhelming majority of our population growth is projected to come from immigration. While this may have benefits from either economic or humanitarian perspectives, it will be disastrous from an ecological standpoint.
B. Measures to Promote Conservation
Conservation may not be popular, but without it, we have no hope of effectively coping with the coming oil shortages. Conservation measures should include measures to:
1. Eliminate tax reductions for SUV's
2. Pass legislation mandating higher fuel-efficiency standards
3. Finance a national program to promote the use of carpools, public transportation and bicycle riding.
4. Reduce subsidies for agribusiness while simultaneously supporting local , community based agriculture programs
5. Support the troops by informing people that our troops are dying primarily to support our oil based, consumer lifestyle. Slogans such "Save our troops by riding your bikes" or "Ride alone and you ride with Osama" could make it patriotic to conserve.
5. Replace ineffective drug war programs like "DARE" with programs that promote conservation and sustainable living.
C. Measures to Support Alternative & Renewable Energy
If we do not take immediate, massive and sustained action to switch to renewable energy then civilization faces the sharpest and perhaps most violent dislocation in recent history.
There are a number of ways to do this:
1. Finance a "Manhattan" or "Apollo" style project to accelerate the development of renewable energy.
2. Give tax breaks to homeowners who install solar panels, wind mills, or similar systems.
3. Finance public transportation to a far greater degree than it currently is financed.
Do you think the government is going to institute a mass mobilization plan to manage the coming crisis?
On local levels, quite possibly. Some communities have already begun instituting small scale, community based measures to ensure sustainability.
On the state or national levels? Absolutely not. As explained previously, the industries that now control our government are the same industries that would be hurt by such a mobilization.
That means we are going to have to do it ourselves.
So figure out what you can do and get to it.
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Mech
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 8237
Location: THE 4th REICH USA |
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Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:09 pm
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I'm afraid THIS is only the beginning...
**
February 24, 2004
Forecast of Rising Oil Demand Challenges Tired Saudi Fields
By JEFF GERTH
hen visitors tour the headquarters of Saudi Arabia's oil empire — a sleek glass building rising from the desert in Dhahran near the Persian Gulf — they are reminded of its mission in a film projected on a giant screen. "We supply what the world demands every day," it declares.
For decades, that has largely been true. Ever since its rich reserves were discovered more than a half-century ago, Saudi Arabia has pumped the oil needed to keep pace with rising needs, becoming the mainstay of the global energy markets.
But the country's oil fields now are in decline, prompting industry and government officials to raise serious questions about whether the kingdom will be able to satisfy the world's thirst for oil in coming years.
Energy forecasts call for Saudi Arabia to almost double its output in the next decade and after. Oil executives and government officials in the United States and Saudi Arabia, however, say capacity will probably stall near current levels, potentially creating a significant gap in the global energy supply.
Outsiders have not had access to detailed production data from Saudi Aramco, the state-owned oil company, for more than 20 years. But interviews in recent months with experts on Saudi oil fields provided a rare look inside the business and suggested looming problems.
An internal Saudi Aramco plan, the experts said, estimates total production capacity in 2011 at 10.15 million barrels a day, about the current capacity. But to meet expected world demand, the United States Department of Energy's research arm says Saudi Arabia will need to produce 13.6 million barrels a day by 2010 and 19.5 million barrels a day by 2020.
"In the past, the world has counted on Saudi Arabia," one senior Saudi oil executive said. "Now I don't see how long it can be maintained."
Saudi Arabia, the leading exporter for three decades, is not running out of oil. Industry officials are finding, however, that it is becoming more difficult or expensive to extract it. Today, the country produces about eight million barrels a day, roughly one-tenth of the world's needs. It is the top foreign supplier to the United States, the world's leading energy consumer.
Fears of a future energy gap could, of course, turn out to be unfounded. Predictions of oil market behavior have often proved wrong.
But if Saudi production falls short, industry experts say the consequences could be significant. Other large producers, like Russia and Iraq, do not have Saudi Aramco's huge reserves or excess oil capacity to export, and promising new fields elsewhere are not expected to deliver enough oil to make up the difference.
As a result, supplies could tighten and oil prices could increase. The global economy could feel the ripples; previous spikes in oil prices have helped cause recessions, though high oil prices in the last year or so have not slowed strong growth.
Saudi Aramco says its dominance in world oil markets will grow because, "if required," it can expand its capacity to 12 million barrels a day or more by "making necessary investments," according to written responses to questions submitted by The New York Times.
But some experts are skeptical. Edward O. Price Jr., a former top Saudi Aramco and Chevron executive and a leading United States government adviser, says he believes that Saudi Arabia can pump up to 12 million barrels a day "for a few years." But "the world should not expect more from the Saudis," he said. He expects global oil markets to be in short supply by 2015.
Fatih Birol, the chief economist for the International Energy Agency, said the Saudis would not be able to increase production enough for future needs without large-scale foreign investment.
The I.E.A., an independent agency founded by energy-consuming nations, and Washington see investment in energy exploration and field maintenance as vital, but such proposals face strong opposition inside Saudi Arabia. Tensions with the West, particularly the United States, make such investment politically difficult for Saudi society. For example, an effort by Crown Prince Abdullah, the kingdom's de facto ruler, to encourage Western companies to invest $25 billion in his country's natural gas industry essentially collapsed last year.
"Access to Persian Gulf oil reserves, especially Saudi Arabia's, is the key question for the whole world," Dr. Birol said.
President Bush has said he wants to make the United States less reliant on oil-producing countries that "don't like America" by diversifying suppliers and financing research into hydrogen fuel cells, but achieving that remains far off.
His administration backs foreign investment initiatives in the gulf region, including Saudi Arabia, and his energy policies rely on Energy Department projections showing the world even more dependent on Arabian oil in 20 years. That may be enough time for governments to find alternatives, but oil field development requires years of planning and work.
Publicly, Saudi oil executives express optimism about the future of their industry. Some economists are equally optimistic that if oil prices rise high enough, advanced recovery techniques will be applied, averting supply problems.
But privately, some Saudi oil officials are less sanguine.
"We don't see us as the ones making sure the oil is there for the rest of the world," one senior executive said in an interview. A Saudi Aramco official cautioned that even the attempt to get up to 12 million barrels a day would "wreak havoc within a decade," by causing damage to the oil fields.
In an unusual public statement, Sadad al-Husseini, Saudi Aramco's second-ranking executive and its leading geologist, warned at an oil conference in Jakarta in 2002 that global "natural declines in existing capacity are real and must be replaced."
Dr. al-Husseini, one Western oil expert said, has been "the brains of Saudi Aramco's exploration and production." But he has told associates that he plans to resign soon, and his departure, government oil experts in the United States and Saudi Arabia say, could hinder Saudi efforts to bolster production or entice foreign investment.
Saudi Arabia's reported proven reserves, more than 250 billion barrels, are one-fourth of the world's total. The most significant is Ghawar. Discovered in 1948, the 300-mile-long sliver near the Persian Gulf is the world's largest oil field and accounts for more than half of the kingdom's production.
The company told The New York Times that its field production practices, including those at Ghawar, were "at optimum levels" and the risk of steep declines was negligible. But Mr. Price, the former vice president for exploration and production at Saudi Aramco, says that North Ghawar, the most valuable section of the field, was pushed too hard in the past.
"Instead of spreading the production to other fields or areas," Mr. Price said, the Saudis concentrated on North Ghawar. That "accelerated the depletion rate and the time to uncontrolled decline," or the point where the field's production drops dramatically, he said.
In Saudi Arabia, seawater is injected into the giant fields to help move the oil toward the top of the reservoir. But over time, the volume of water that is lifted along with the oil increases, and the volume of oil declines proportionally. Eventually, it becomes uneconomical to extract the oil. There is also a risk that the field can become unstable and collapse.
Ghawar is still far too productive to abandon. But because of increasing problems with managing the water, one Saudi oil executive said, "Ghawar is becoming very costly to maintain."
The average decline rate in Saudi Aramco's mature fields — Ghawar and a few others — "is in the range of 8 percent per year," without additional remediation, according to the company's statement. This means several hundred thousand barrels of daily oil production would have to be added every year just to make up for the diminished output.
Every oil field is unique, and experts cannot predict how long each might last. For its part, Saudi Aramco is counting on Ghawar for years to come.
The company projects that Ghawar will continue to produce more than half its oil. One internal company estimate from 2002 puts Ghawar's production at 5.25 million barrels a day in 2011, more than half the total expected crude oil capacity of 10.15 million, according to United States government officials and oil executives.
"The big risk in Saudi Arabia is that Ghawar's rate of decline increases to an alarming point," said Ali Morteza Samsam Bakhtiari, a senior official with the National Iranian Oil Company. "That will set bells ringing all over the oil world because Ghawar underpins Saudi output and Saudi undergirds worldwide production."
The I.E.A. warned in November that huge investments would be needed to offset the decline rates in mature Middle Eastern oil fields — it put the average at 5 percent — and the increasing costs of oil and gas production. The agency, based in Paris, forecasts that Saudi production will need to reach 20 million barrels a day by 2020. (I.E.A. and other research estimates say that more than 90 percent of that would be crude oil; the rest would be liquid products like natural gas liquids that result from the processing of crude oil.)
In his speech in Jakarta, Dr. al-Husseini noted the need for exploration, pointing out that colleagues at Exxon Mobil predict that more than 50 percent of oil and gas consumption in 2010 must come from new fields and reservoirs.
Harry A. Longwell, the executive vice president of Exxon Mobil, says finding new sources of oil is crucial. Mr. Longwell, in an interview, said that increasing demand and declining production were not new problems, but they were "much larger now because of the world's demand for energy and the magnitude of the numbers now are much larger."
To offset its declines, Saudi Aramco is bringing back into production one idle field, Qatif, and is enhancing production at a nearby offshore field, Abu Safah. The company says that with expert management, these fields will produce about 800,000 barrels a day.
But current and former Saudi Aramco executives question those expectations, contending that the goal of 500,000 barrels a day for Qatif is unrealistic and that development costs are higher than anticipated.
Qatif poses real difficulties. It is near housing for Saudi Arabia's minority Shiite population and contains high concentrations of hydrogen sulfide, a highly toxic gas. Its development is "particularly challenging," according to a technical paper by Saudi Aramco engineers presented last year in Bahrain, which said that 45 percent of potential drilling sites "were rejected due to safety concerns."
At Abu Safah, Saudi Aramco has experienced increasing water problems as it has turned to submersible pumps to extract oil. Experts, including American and Saudi government officials, say the technique is ill advised. Saudi Aramco, in its written response to questions, defended the use of the pumps at Abu Safah and its ability to manage the water after 37 years of production.
One United Sates government energy expert noted that "submersible pumps is what the Soviets went to on an indiscriminate basis in West Siberia and it went south." Samotlor, a huge field in Siberia, once produced more than three million barrels a day, but it declined sharply in the 1980's after the Soviets pushed it too hard. Today it produces only a few hundred thousand barrels a day. |
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Boomer Chick
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 407
Location: Colorado |
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Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:20 pm
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Thanks, Mech, I knew you'd know about this. I think of all the educating we are concerned about, this may be the most important.
Here's a great excerpt by Thom Hartmann about living in the right way!
http://www.thomhartmann.com/enough.shtml
It's time to form communities and prepare, don't you think?
bc |
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Mech
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 8237
Location: THE 4th REICH USA |
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Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:27 pm
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Hmmmm....
Self-preservation should be a top priority.
Im kind of shaky about the term "Community"...because it reminds me too much of the word Communism.
My question would be..WHO would RULE over these so-called communities?
Id say...everyone should do what they can to prepare for the inevitable.
If this lousy government doesnt do something soon....it will be "every man for himself" in terms of being able to live without fossil fuels.
Sad but true.
Only the global elites will have access to the last remaining reserves.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Mech on 02-24-2004] |
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Boomer Chick
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 407
Location: Colorado |
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Tue Feb 24, 2004 7:54 pm
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If you read the Thom Hartmann piece, you'll know what I mean by community.
It's one's village in the sense of the old Indian man Thom talked about. It's one's family and neighborhood.
If you're not living in a neighborhood or in a community of people that would not help you in a pinch, where you would not help them, then it's not "community."
There are co-op communities. There are simple friendly neighborhoods. There are survival communities. And please don't fear a social construct good for all of its members because of the word "communism."
We all may have to barter and trade someday so being a part of a community of people is better for survival than being a "loner."
Think back to Native American constructs and early pioneer constructs -- OK?
Heck, I would sell my home now, buy some acreage with fertile soil, a house with a basemnt, build a greenhouse, keep chickens, and offer shelter to others. I would make sure I know all my neighbors and that we could trade with one another and help each-other when needed.
Communism is a state-run kind of entity in theory-- equality--- but it never was realized in its pure form. But I'm not talking about that -- I'm talking about communal living and village living, and just plain community. No chiefs, just cooperation and support!
GET IT???
love,
bc
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Mech
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 8237
Location: THE 4th REICH USA |
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Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:12 pm
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BC: "GET IT???"
Uhhhhh...yeah. I suppose.
In fact i'm in the process of making environmental restoration/remediation a CAREER..instead of fossil fuel dependent airplanes.
What are YOU doing?
[Edited 2 times, lastly by Mech on 02-24-2004] |
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Boomer Chick
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 407
Location: Colorado |
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Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:13 pm
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Wonderful! 
Well, I'm investigating communities!
Here's a great link on one of the Colorado community sites I found. It's about the modern approach to community formation:
http://www.edenranch.com/Creating%20Community.htm
We're just about ready to sell our house and property and head out for a new way of life, Mech. We're selling our car and getting a hybrid -- possibly biodiesal.
What do you know about bio-diesal motors? I know nothing!
I've tried to grow things here at this altitude, but have had no luck with the soil, even importing soil, and short of a greenhouse, the climate and terrain are just too harsh. Besides, who wants to live in an active police state in this county?
The community acreage I was looking at today is located on the Western Slope of Colorado in a town called Paonia, near the larger town of Grand Junction. There are fruit orchards there -- agriculture more viable and organic farming quite developed.
My husband knows electronics and is interested in solar and wind energies and only needs time as he's quite involved in running his business (electronic repair-trouble shooting etc. and speaker building) right now. But if and when we sell our home, we can buy some smaller homes to rent, and explore living off the land somewhere either in a cooperative community or in just a friendly area. And get "into" alternative-off-the-grid home energies. You know?
We could even start our own community by buying land together -- you, swamp, and others, and offer our combined talents to others and in our community. It's an idea. We could build wind and solar energy homes, small and efficient, and build underground shelters, etc. Why not? Just what state would we want to start a community in?
Food for thought, organic food at that!
Any thoughts?
bc
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Boomer Chick
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 407
Location: Colorado |
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Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:16 pm
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PS! I like chickens! I would like to raise and grow organically-fed chickens, sell them (or barter) and also sell and/or barter the eggs! I would also like to organically grow vegetables and fruits and can them as well as live off of them!
I have a thing for chickens! My grandmother had a chicken ranch in Cotatti California when I was young. It impressed me!
bc |
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Mech
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 8237
Location: THE 4th REICH USA |
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Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:00 am
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BC:What do you know about bio-diesal motors?
They are similar to diesel engines exept they use waste vegetable oil..basically.
Actually...diesel is pretty efficient compared to standard internal combustion engines.
I know someone who converted a VW vanagon to biodiesel...BUT...he had a hard time getting fuel for it. Sometimes the local burger king helped but not very often.
As for me...Im a handyman and a recycler...I think RETROFITTING existing structures with efficiency products is more my style. Like say...new superinsulation, solar arrays, small wind generator moduals, greenhouse rooms that face the sun and use solar gain to supplement winter heat.Im not into the Commune lifestyle. I like my privacy myself.
You can still acheieve a high level of environmental standards and not have to live in a "commune".Not up my alley....sorry.I want a piece of land that is actually mine untill im dead. I feel its a constitutional right.
Not only that...but those folks who live in those so-called Eco-communities usually have BIG BUCKS and pay quite an admission price.
I think Recycling is going to be one of the biggest economies in the next 20 years....and I mean recycling everything. Cars, houses, furniture, materials like plastics, metals...everything.
I book id recommend is Choose to reuse
by David Goldbeck..huge amount of resources.THE encyclopedia.
Finally...I wont pay 20 thousand dollars for a freaking toyota corolla that has a special engine.(Hybrid)
I'd rather by a used civic for 5 grand and beat the snot out of it and put 200 thousand miles on it...saving me a TON of money while getting decent milage.
[Edited 5 times, lastly by Mech on 02-24-2004] |
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Boomer Chick
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 407
Location: Colorado |
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Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:37 am
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Yeah, I hear you on communal stuff-- that's not our personal style, either. But village and neighborhood is!
I just found a great bio-diesel site:
http://www.biodiesel.org/
We could get a used diesel anything, preferably a small car, and move to Boulder where they have two filling stations for bio-diesel. The new energy bill is also offering some kind of rebate or dicount for investing in bio-diesel fueled cars, too.
Yes, and I hear you on recycling! OMG! Yes! We'll be recycling EVERYTHING! It'll be an actual profession for many!
Garbage men and recycling places will be the kings in that future world scenario!
I like your ideas for helping homeowners with alternative energies and passive solar rooms, etc.! Excellent!
bc
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Boomer Chick on 02-25-2004] |
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Mech
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 8237
Location: THE 4th REICH USA |
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Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:54 am
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I think volkswagen is still making their GOLF model that runs on diesel.
It would be interesting to see if they put that engine in the new beetle...even though I think that car is ugly as heck and overpriced.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Mech on 02-24-2004] |
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KNOW-THIS
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 3694
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Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:10 pm
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[]
[Edited 1 times, lastly by KNOW-THIS on 02-25-2004] |
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Boomer Chick
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 407
Location: Colorado |
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Thu Feb 26, 2004 3:47 am
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KNOW THIS,
That's the same link I originally posted!
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Boomer Chick on 02-25-2004] |
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