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theseeker
Joined: 25 Jul 2000
Posts: 3403
Location: Damnit...I'm a doctor jim |
Cy's question's ->
 Mon Oct 23, 2000 3:57 am
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From Christy's board,I'll take a shot at it later, I would hope noone is...chicken... :
Seeker you are free to believe what you will, but what difference does it make what William Thomas says or thinks? What difference does it make what Carnicom thinks? Does the integrity of the people involved who promote the issue matter one iota, good or bad, if the issue, is in fact real. I guess what I'm asking, when put another way, is: Does it really matter if you believe that the sun won't rise tomorrow...if in fact it does rise tomorrow. Does what we believe really matter when compared with the facts at hand and the truth and reality that occurs regardless of what we believe?
Let's assume for the moment, for the sake of discussion, that some aircraft are indeed spraying us with an unknown chemical....how relevant then are the opinions and integrity of William Thomas and Clifford Carnicom to the fact of the spraying? Does what they think matter or change the fact of its occurrence? You see the problem here? You're shooting the messenger but not really refuting the message, or countering the speculation of people like Thomas or Caricom.
1.You haven't explained to any satisfaction yet how chemtrails can form in conditions that do not allow their formation.
2.Why we have never seen such massive displays of voluminous "persistent contrail" filled skies in the past (at least in my memory). What about your memory?
3.You haven't explained possible engine designs that maybe could account for these formations, (that I have seen on this board, anyway). You have my own detailed opinion regarding high by-pass jet engines for example....but I haven’t seen yours.
4. Why do the precise stop and start dashed "contrails" (that I have seen with my own eyes) occur.. Have you told us yet?
5. What about the low-altitude formations that occur in temperature, pressure, and relative humidity conditions that would make natural formations impossible? Have you explained this yet?
6. Have you explained the multi-color oilslick displays, and how its possible for the opaque ice crystals found in natural formations to refract light, as a liquid substance would?
7. Have you responded cogently to my own personal comments of witnessing a chemtrail descend to groundlevel? I don't remember you de-bunking me on this point yet.
Let's forget Carnicom and Thomas for a moment Seeker, their integrity is not even relevant or in question here. What is important is what you have witnessed with your own eyes, and with your own experience. I am calling your bluff and asking you to respond with your own reasoning and not that of Carnicom's or William Thomas.
You obviously have an interest and fascination with this issue or you wouldn’t have dealt with it so long and/or placed so much of your time and energy into it. But if you cannot explain or counter my examples of anomalous sightings occurring in the sky every day with your own logical explanations, then I think you must at least allow for the possibility that those who believe something is being sprayed may in fact be correct.
cydoniaquest
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T/S |
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cydoniaquest
Joined: 12 Aug 2000
Posts: 797
Location: nowhere |
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Mon Oct 23, 2000 4:03 am
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DELETED BY THE ARTIST FORMALLY KNOWN AS CYDONIAQUEST
[Edited 1 times, lastly by cydoniaquest on 01-13-2001] |
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elvis lives
Joined: 30 Sep 2000
Posts: 143
Location: Pismo Beach, California |
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Mon Oct 23, 2000 4:06 am
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Leave it to cydoniaquest to put the onus on others to prove that chemtrails DON'T exist. |
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cydoniaquest
Joined: 12 Aug 2000
Posts: 797
Location: nowhere |
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Mon Oct 23, 2000 4:14 am
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Elvis,
Some say you don't exist either, but I swear I saw you chowing down at a greasy spoon in Arizona!
Hey, if you want to say that chemtrails don't exist, then fine, I have no problem with that. That's what I assume you're here for. You and Jay have some great arguments on your side, so state your case man....see how it flies. I'm sitting here with my 12 guage ready to shoot it down. |
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theseeker
Joined: 25 Jul 2000
Posts: 3403
Location: Damnit...I'm a doctor jim |
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Mon Oct 23, 2000 4:27 am
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So elvis, does not taking a shot at 1-7 make you a....chicken ?
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elvis lives
Joined: 30 Sep 2000
Posts: 143
Location: Pismo Beach, California |
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Mon Oct 23, 2000 4:28 am
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cydoniaquest,
The problem is.....your 12 guage is loaded with blanks.
It's not up to us to prove that chemtrails don't exist, its up to you to prove they do. Two years now and not one bit of proof. Lots of lip service.....but no proof. |
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Duncan Kunz
Joined: 19 Oct 2000
Posts: 582
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Mon Oct 23, 2000 5:38 am
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Hold on a minute here.
I think anyone who has read my posts considers me a debunker par excellance, and my background and employment make me a candidate for paid-disinformant-of-the-month in some circles.
But Mr. Cydoniaquest brings up some valid points and questions.
First, calling Messrs. Thomas, Rense, and Carnicom’s integrity into question does absolutely nothing to make or break the case for contrails-as-chemtrails or anything else.
I personally think Mr. Carnicom is a puffed-up gasbag; but then, I realize that I am a puffed-up gasbag as well. If a hideous egotist with an over-developed sense of his own importance is the kiss of death to that person’s beliefs, then Mr. Carnicom and I are both wrong – and that simply can’t be; either Chemtrails are non-existent or they exist!
Another thing that I believe Mr. Carnicom and I share is our belief that our view of contrails is the true one. You can believe something that doesn’t have much validity in the eyes of the scientific community without losing integrity. So it simply doesn’t make any sense whatsoever for anyone of us here to denigrate the others’ beliefs; we see too much of that between Messrs. Bush and Gore.
Instead, we need to answer some questions that need to be answered. I have posted what I consider some serious questions about the existence of chemtrails; as far as I know, they have yet to be answered by anyone in the chemtrail community.
But how about Mr. Cydoniaquest’s questions? Some of them are certainly beyond my expertise; I am neither a meteorologist nor a fluid dynamicist. But there are things I think we must think about – things that many of us can agree with.
There are a lot more c-trails now than there were five years ago. Is this a function of simply more aircraft in the air, or is there another factor? For example, we see reports of increased respiratory problems; is that a reflection on higher pollution in general or is there a c-traol/respiratory distress correlation? I don’t think there is. Mr. Cydoniaquest does. But neither of us knows for sure, and we shouldn’t blow it off.
Another thing that concerns me is the increasing frequency of reports that c-trails form at substantially below the 9000-meter altitude typically associated with c-trail formation, i.e., -40 deg C, 100 % RH. If this is true, all of us debunkers need to figure out why. If this is not true, then we need to show that it is not and at least post the information where all can see it.
I personally believe that our government is corrupt in many areas, and recent movements in our laws show that peoples’ freedoms, privacy, and right-to-know are at the bottom of the government’s priority list. I know that just because we have a government capable of mischief – and one that did such mischief in the past -- that it doesn’t prove the government is actually carrying out that mischief now. On the other hand, intent and capability are used to show circumstantiality in the law, and sometimes that works in finding out more important things, like motive, hard evidence, etc.
I think that most people involved in the c-trail controversy fall into four groups:
1. People that believe, with religious fervor, that c-trails are a plot, and nothing will convince them otherwise;
2. People that believe, with religious fervor, that c-trails are completely bogus, and nothing will convince them otherwise;
3. People that believe that c-trails are bogus, but are at least willing to hear the other side; and
4. People that believe that c-trails are the real thing, but are at least willing to hear the other side.
As a Number Three, I have no problem with others of my own tribe, nor with our neighbors in Number Four. We can at least argue evidence, and may the best corpus delicti win.
But Numbers One and Two will end up going nowhere, and after all the back-and-forth insults of “fool!”, “sheeple!”, “idiot”, and “CIA spy”, no minds will have been changed, and all will be left with the taste of ashes in their mouth.
Now as to whether those ashes are the results of chemical spraying ... but I digress.
Regards,
Duncan Kunz / duncan.kunz@prodigy.net
Mesa AZ / 480-891-2525
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cydoniaquest
Joined: 12 Aug 2000
Posts: 797
Location: nowhere |
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Mon Oct 23, 2000 6:02 am
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DELETED BY THE ARTIST FORMALLY KNOWN AS CYDONIAQUEST
[Edited 1 times, lastly by cydoniaquest on 01-13-2001] |
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Thermit
Joined: 08 Jul 2000
Posts: 3136
Location: Texas |
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Mon Oct 23, 2000 6:04 am
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Love it. A Chemtrail Myers-Briggs test. 
The meteorological approach to discerning possible contrail inconsistencies has apealed to me since it is a hands-on method that is repeatable by anyone given the formulas and data. I'll admit that I have used models that were too simple in the past, but my understanding is growing as the needed information is collected. When this is complete data related to observations will be rexamined and we will see if there are any interesting trends.
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theseeker
Joined: 25 Jul 2000
Posts: 3403
Location: Damnit...I'm a doctor jim |
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Mon Oct 23, 2000 6:52 am
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I agree, great post...most questions have been answered..many times but unfortunately archives of contrary data have hit the bin bucket or have been lost to sites being pulled.
I will install myself as a 3 1/2 .....
I am completly opposed to any "chemtrail sickness" and any relation tuit.....
WX mod exists in small forms but it is against many UN laws to perform WX-mod as a country.....
I would lean to that direction for the DOD knows only what they do in security and national interest....
That would be the 1/2......
Thermit, if your keeping data of you area then you should be establishing a daily page of observance, if possible....mere suggestion....
out
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Thermit
Joined: 08 Jul 2000
Posts: 3136
Location: Texas |
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Mon Oct 23, 2000 5:57 pm
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quote:
Thermit, if your keeping data of you area then you should be establishing a daily page of observance, if possible....mere suggestion....
Tis true...
I might could set up another database for this purpose...hmmm.... |
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cydoniaquest
Joined: 12 Aug 2000
Posts: 797
Location: nowhere |
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Mon Oct 23, 2000 10:20 pm
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DELETED BY THE ARTIST FORMALLY KNOWN AS CYDONIAQUEST
[Edited 1 times, lastly by cydoniaquest on 01-13-2001] |
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Thermit
Joined: 08 Jul 2000
Posts: 3136
Location: Texas |
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Mon Oct 23, 2000 10:57 pm
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That's a great story Cy. I hope that you will also post it in the Chemtrail Stories forum, so people will be sure to find it.
I haven't really heard of Chemtrails creating a fog on the ground. When you saw it at ground level, did you get the sense of a mist falling downward? |
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elvis lives
Joined: 30 Sep 2000
Posts: 143
Location: Pismo Beach, California |
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Mon Oct 23, 2000 10:58 pm
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cydoniaquest..you say
"It wasn’t until some months later that I happened to be working late one night and catch a William Thomas interview (or replay thereof) on the Art Bell show, and at that time I realized others were aware of the same thing"
The fact that you were listening to an Art Bell radio show tells me you are at high risk for being sucked into controversial issues i.e. "chemtrails".
You seem like a nice guy, but you should get on with your life and let the real hard core chemtrail addicts go at this one. You are on the border, desperately wanting someone on the other side to convince you chemtrails don't exist. Give Jay and others credit for time spent and take their advice...think of all the other things you could be doing besides living in the chemtrail forums.
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Thermit
Joined: 08 Jul 2000
Posts: 3136
Location: Texas |
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Mon Oct 23, 2000 11:37 pm
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Elvis, I don't know why you would want to send Cy away, when you plan on staying here having all the fun. But everybody know there are much more important things in life than Chemtrails, you should probably use your debunking skills to debunk the greatest conspiracy that Elvis actually still lives, or maybe the TCB conspiracy. Just "think of all the other things you could be doing besides living in the chemtrail forums."
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