|
|
BobB
Joined: 30 Jul 2001
Posts: 67
Location: LInden,Texas,United states of America |
Babylon the great is fallen,is fallen
 Tue Sep 18, 2001 2:26 pm
|
 |
|
The illuminati has been put on notice by God that thier rein on this Earth is done. Americas government knew these attacks were coming, and they wired the trade center with explosive charges .The trade center was demolished to bring the American people to hate the moslem people.If this had not been done perhaps a 100 people would have died on the floors struck by the planes. Americas government murdered our own people to manipulate our emotions. This was done to put us firmly on Isreals side in the coming Armaggedon. Isreal has turned away from God and God has has promised its destruction.Witnesses heard multiple explosions as each building callapsed.The buildings falling looked like a profesional demolition job.The ancient prophecies are now being fullfilled.The irregularities in the sun are part of this prophecy.This incident is mentioned specifically in Revelations,prepare to meet your God. the time is now to reject our satanic government and life, and get right with God.TIME IS SHORT,WE NEED TO RESIST EVIL ANYWAY WE CAN EVEN IF WE LOSE OUR LIVES DOING IT |
| |
|
|
Duncan Kunz
Joined: 19 Oct 2000
Posts: 582
|
|
Tue Sep 18, 2001 6:31 pm
|
|
|
BobB, I want to publicly apologize to you and the entire forum for my recent attempts to make a fool of you.
You do it far better yourself than I could ever do.
Regards,
------------------
Duncan Kunz / duncankunz@home.com
Mesa AZ / 480-891-2525
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Duncan Kunz on 09-18-2001] |
| |
|
|
penumbra
Joined: 24 Apr 2001
Posts: 672
Location: North Carolina |
|
Tue Sep 18, 2001 8:35 pm
|
|
|
Duncan, It is in extremely poor taste to ridicule another for their religious views, regardless of how different they are from your own. The Taliban would be a good example of that, as well as many others...including the backlash against Muslims in this country.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by penumbra on 09-18-2001] |
| |
|
|
86
Joined: 05 Sep 2001
Posts: 59
Location: VA |
|
Tue Sep 18, 2001 10:00 pm
|
|
|
I think what Duncan was saying was that if you're going to throw allegations like that around, you have to be able to back it up with evidence. I could be wrong,I don't know either of em, but they do go round and round with each other.
Anyway, this whole "a small group couldn't have pulled off the attacks" theory doesn't wash with me. What it boils down to is, all you really have to do is be able to get your people trained to fly the aircraft and get them on the plane. Boom, they take over the plane and fly them to the targets. Yes, it does require extensive planning, but it's not impossible or even improbable. It is frightingly easy to get weapons, or anything else on a plane, including unauthorized people. It's easy to snatch an id pass and have free reign in restricted areas and free access to any plane you want.
Flight plans don't really mean too much in an operation like this, aside from departure times, fuel loads and the general flight path. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a plane going to the west coast is going to have more fuel onboard than one flying from Newark to Hartford. The timing of the departures is important as well, but once again, not a big obstacle.
In my opinion this was a well orchestrated, KISS operation, and unfortunately, that's why it worked.
As for the other allegations about the Mossad, or a coup or whatever, the jury in my head is still out. Is it possible? Anything is possible. |
| |
|
|
Duncan Kunz
Joined: 19 Oct 2000
Posts: 582
|
|
Tue Sep 18, 2001 10:06 pm
|
|
|
Dear Ms. Penumbra:
While I would never ridicule a person's religious views, I consider anyone who -- with no evidence whatsoever -- accuses our government of murdering five to six thousands of its own civilians to be, at the very least, a fool; at the most, a psychotic.
I have given poor BobB the benefit of the doubt on this one.
------------------
Duncan Kunz / duncankunz@home.com
Mesa AZ / 480-891-2525 |
| |
|
|
djembemon
Joined: 22 Dec 2000
Posts: 89
Location: Atlanta, GA USA |
|
Wed Sep 19, 2001 12:56 am
|
|
|
Food for Thought:
There is a growing wall of historical evidence -- a mountain, in fact (in the form of an upcoming book) -- that the attack on Pearl Harbor was exactly that which several in this thread seem to suggest could never happen.
By this, I mean that "Yes," the Japanese military very clearly planned and executed the attack. HOWEVER -- how to put this delicately -- it appears as if the door was "wide open" for them to do so.
The Japanese military, then, was indeed "led down a garden path". The payoff? Americans all over the world were instantly "united", and what had been "unthinkable" the previous week now seemed "inevitable": going into World War II at full throttle, fighting against the Axis powers of Germany AND Japan simultaneously.
Conspiracy? Not really, but actually a lot more like a "willful lack of critical information and permission" being denied certain commanders of the Pacific Fleet. Sins of omission, in other words, rather than sins of commission. Impossible? I'll save the diatribe. Suffice it to say it could happen again today, and evidence of that possibility is building (regarding the recent attacks) even as we speak.
Politics indeed makes strange bedfellows. But as well, politicians often go to bed thinking themselves a "genius" -- only to wake the next morning a "fool".
History will have the last laugh. |
| |
|
|
86
Joined: 05 Sep 2001
Posts: 59
Location: VA |
|
Wed Sep 19, 2001 2:42 am
|
|
|
With things like the recent events, you can't rule out anything. And also, as in with what is happening now, with past events, we will never really know what really happened, who knew what and when and who said (or didn't say) what to whom and when.
Basically, anyone can write something and make it sound factual, take quotes out of context and such.
All in all, it really makes you wonder if what you really see is what you're really seeing.
It's ok if this makes no sense. |
| |
|
|
penumbra
Joined: 24 Apr 2001
Posts: 672
Location: North Carolina |
|
Wed Sep 19, 2001 1:51 pm
|
|
|
Thank you for the clarification Duncan! The orignal post just had a very religious tone to it.
Hey dj, isn't "willful lack of critical information and permission" the same thing as "close enough for gubmint work"? |
| |
|
|
BobB
Joined: 30 Jul 2001
Posts: 67
Location: LInden,Texas,United states of America |
|
Thu Sep 20, 2001 8:13 pm
|
|
|
duncan americas government has made war on its citizens in the past, and i see no reason to believe they wouldnt repeatedly do the same. I believe you are a government intellegence opperative,mr kunz but i may be wrong, because every time i speak against this satanic government you crawl out from under your rock.If you choose to debunk what i believe to be true, it only reinforces that belief in my mind(and others!)Our government is obviously satanic in nature, whether satan actually exists or not, these fools are doing what they believe to be his will and america as a nation will cease to exist because fools like you thumbed your noses at yahweh and enbraced satan. our country is finished because folks like mr kunz have openly opposed gods will and ridiculed his word.may the love of god be with those who oppose satan....to those who are satans ally, prepare to lose your soul for eternity, for the time of gods judgement is now. there is no more wiggle room. |
| |
|
|
Catnip57
Joined: 22 Apr 2001
Posts: 596
Location: Central Washington |
|
Fri Sep 21, 2001 12:17 am
|
|
|
Rense.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gravity Helped Terrorists
Destroy Twin Towers
By Robert Roy Britt
Senior Science Writer
SPACE.com
9-19-1
Though terrorists triggered the collapse of the World Trade Center's Twin Towers, much of the energy -- calculated by a physicist to have been at least 2 percent that of the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima -- was supplied by Nature's most ubiquitous force: gravity.
The force that keeps our feet on the ground and holds planets in orbit swiftly fueled a runaway momentum that created thundering impacts so great they were detected by equipment designed to monitor earthquakes.
Meanwhile, some scientists have suggested that even without the searing fire, the structural integrity of the buildings might have been compromised enough by the planes' impacts to cause the towers' ultimate collapse anyway.
Momentum builds
In analyzing the disaster, most engineers and architects assume that the top floors gave way when fire melted the steel structures that support the towers. The resulting collapse of the upper floors triggered a chain reaction that few buildings of any height could have withstood, several experts said.
"Ultimately it was gravity," said Jon Magnusson, chairman and chief executive of Skilling Ward Magnusson Barkshire, a Seattle firmed that did the original structural engineering work on the towers. "But it was the fire that defeated all the buildings' defenses against gravity."
Frank Moscatelli, a physics professor at Swarthmore College in Pennsylvania, calculated the total energy released in the disaster based on the amount of jet fuel aboard the 767s, their speed at impact, and the weight of the buildings.
"The airplanes destroyed the upper 20 floors," Moscatelli told SPACE.com. "Gravity did the rest."
"Once the upper floors began to fall, they gained momentum," Moscatelli explained. "As each floor collapses, more weight smashes into the floor below, and the momentum builds tremendously and rapidly."
Mathematically, the momentum is a function of the buildings' height and weight, along with the acceleration of gravity. Moscatelli said the total energy released by the impacts, explosions and collapses was between 1/50th and 1/20th that of the Hiroshima bomb.
Shaking the ground
When the crumbling towers thudded to the ground, they created ground tremors equal to earthquakes of magnitude 2.1 and 2.3, as measured by a seismic station in Palisades, New York, 21 miles (34 kilometers) north of Manhattan.
These would be small numbers for earthquakes, not likely to be felt by anyone, since an earthquake is typically centered miles below the surface, its energy radiating out and dissipating over great distances. But the energy from the collapse of the towers was focused in a very small area, making it remarkable that the events were detected at all outside lower Manhattan.
Much of this energy went into destroying the buildings themselves and generating the cloud of debris.
More surprising, even the impacts of the airliners shook the ground, registering with the equivalent of earthquakes with magnitudes of 0.7 and 0.9.
Magnusson, the structural engineer, said that if fire had not brought the buildings down, a strong wind might have eventually toppled them.
"If there was no fire, in my opinion the buildings would be standing today," Magnusson said in a telephone interview. "And they would stand until there was a significant wind storm."
The Twin Towers, like most skyscrapers, were designed to handle hurricane-force winds. But all of this wind resistance is built into the exterior of the buildings, Magnusson explained. The holes carved into the side of the buildings by the impacts "would have been a problem for the wind resisting system," he said.
Mir Ali, a professor of architecture at the University of Illinois, disagreed. He said that while the gaping holes would have caused the buildings to sway more in the wind, they would likely have withstood the pressure. In any event, the holes could have been beefed up, he said, assuming no big storms arrived before builders had time.
Other possible damage
Another scientist suggested that the building might have had other structural damage, something that might never be determined from the rubble of the disaster.
The impact of the hijacked jets could have created a vibration, or oscillation, in the buildings, said Arthur Lerner-Lam, Associate Director for geology and geophysics at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, which reported the seismic observations.
All tall buildings can oscillate in the wind, a factor taken into account by architects.
Lerner-Lam said that the vibrations set in motion early in the morning on Sept. 11 would likely have been at a higher frequency than those caused by wind. He said that it's possible, though speculative to say so given scant evidence, that the higher frequency might have damaged the building to the extent that it would have ultimately toppled.
Some eyewitness reports told of what appeared to be buckling in walls below the level of the fire, Lerner-Lam said.
He described the potential vibration as akin to a ringing bell. The initial ringing would have damped out quickly. But if large enough, it could have left permanent damage. In such a scenario, the steel support beams would behave like plastic, Lerner-Lam explained: Bend them a little, they spring back. Bend them further, they stay bent. Bend them enough, they break.
Both Magnusson and Ali said they doubted this scenario.
"Oscillations can damage a building," Magnusson said. "But it would have revealed itself in the first few minutes."
The south tower collapsed 56 minutes after being struck. The north tower collapsed 1 hour and 40 minutes after impact.
Designing the future
Still, several engineers say the construction of the buildings, in particular their combustibility, contributed to their demise.
Each tower was supported primarily by a series of steel columns built into the exteriors, 61 on each side. These pillars support their own weight and half the weight of the floors, Magnusson said. A cluster of columns at the center did heavier lifting, supporting themselves, half the weight of the floors, and all of the elevators and other mechanical systems.
Steel trusses tied the two sets of columns together, providing reinforcement.
Engineers aren't sure if the central columns were compromised in the fires. But regardless, an important question has emerged: Can future buildings be designed to survive similar attacks?
Ali, the University of Illinois architecture professor, said improvements in design can be made. Using less combustible materials on floors and walls would slow the spread of fires, allowing for more effective evacuations.
Structurally, concrete is less vulnerable to fire than glass and steel, Ali said, and designers will have to consider thicker external structures.
When the World Trade Center was built, in the 1970s, concrete was too heavy to be a practical material for a 110-story building. More recently, stronger types of concrete have been developed, and steel-reinforced concrete is increasingly the material of choice for skyscrapers.
But future design changes will be limited by cost. To make a building truly terrorist-resistant, it would have to be built like a nuclear plant, Ali said, so that an airliner could not penetrate the exterior and a fire could not spread.
"Huge concrete walls" would be required, Ali said. "Cost-wise, it is impractical."
MainPage http://www.rense.com
---------------------------------------------------------
In lite of the fact that evidence is lacking to prove that the trade centers were wired with explosives that particular theory can only spread more paranoia and fear.
Everyone is entitled to believe what they want however.
My belief is that it was indeed gravity that brought about the total destruction of those buildings.
As mentioned in the article, trying to build a terrorists proof building would probably be cost prohibitive. They should perhaps look at ways to evacuate a building of it's occupants in as quickly a manner possible.
Having more stairwells would help...perhaps having extendable ladders on all floors would help to move people trapped on burning floors past those floors down to non burning floors. Or maybe on extremely tall buildings they should install outside elevators with an emergency power system in the event electrical power goes out.
In the future I'm sure they'll change their current evacuation procedures. And if I'm ever in a tall building that experiences a violent shaking with smoke pouring in for all sides I'm sure not going to stand around and wonder what's going on.... I'm getting the heck out of there.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Catnip57 on 09-20-2001] |
| |
|
|
3T3L1
Joined: 08 Mar 2001
Posts: 1344
Location: Lubbock, Texas |
|
Sat Sep 22, 2001 8:17 pm
|
|
|
Here's another explanation for why the towers may have fallen as quickly as they did.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34342,00.html
Asbestos Could Have Saved WTC Lives
Friday, September 14, 2001
By Steven Milloy
Asbestos fibers in the air and rubble following the collapse of the World Trade Center is adding to fears in the aftermath of Tuesday’s terrorist attack. The true tragedy in the asbestos story, though, is the lives that might have been saved but for 1970s-era hysteria about asbestos.
Until 30 years ago, asbestos was added to flame-retardant sprays used to insulate steel building materials, particularly floor supports. The insulation was intended to delay the steel from melting in the case of fire by up to four hours.
In the case of the World Trade Center, emergency plans called for this four-hour window to be used to evacuate the building while helicopters sprayed to put out the fire and evacuated persons from the roof.
The use of asbestos ceased in the 1970s following reports of asbestos workers becoming ill from high exposures to asbestos fibers. The Mt. Sinai School of Medicine’s Irving Selikoff had reported that asbestos workers had higher rates of lung cancer and other diseases. Selikoff then played a key role in the campaign to halt the use of asbestos in construction.
In 1971, New York City banned the use of asbestos in spray fireproofing. At that time, asbestos insulating material had only been sprayed up to the 64th floor of the World Trade Center towers.
Other materials were substituted for asbestos. Though the substitute sprays passed Underwriters Laboratories’ tests, not everyone was convinced they would work as well.
One skeptic was the late-Herbert Levine who invented spray fireproofing with wet asbestos in the late-1940s. Levine’s invention involved a combination of asbestos with mineral wool and made commonplace the construction of large steel framed buildings.
Previously, buildings such as the Empire State Building had to have their steel framework insulated with concrete, a much more expensive insulator that was more difficult to use.
Levine’s company, Asbestospray, was familiar with the World Trade Center construction, but failed to get the contract for spraying insulation in the World Trade Center. Levine frequently would say that "if a fire breaks out above the 64th floor, that building will fall down."
That appears to be what happened Tuesday, according to Richard Wilson, a risk expert and physics professor at Harvard University.
The two hijacked airliners crashed into floors 96 to 103 of One World Trade Center and floors 87 to 93 of Two World Trade Center. Instead of the steel girders of the towers lasting up to four hours before melting, the steel frames of One World Trade Center lasted only one hour and forty minutes, while the steel frames of Two World Trade Center lasted just 56 minutes before collapsing.
Though many were able to escape during those times, thousands apparently were not, including the hundreds of firefighters and police killed when the buildings suddenly and prematurely collapsed.
Selikoff was certainly right to point out that some workers heavily exposed to certain types of asbestos fibers were at increased risk of disease. But Selikoff was wrong to press the panic button about any use of or exposure to asbestos. For example, no adverse health effect has ever been attributed to Levine’s technique of spraying wet asbestos, according to Harvard’s Wilson.
We may now be paying a horrible price for junk science-fueled asbestos hysteria.
Steven Milloy is the publisher of JunkScience.com, an adjunct scholar at the Cato Institute and the author of the upcoming book Junk Science Judo: Self-defense Against Health Scares and Scams (Cato Institute, 2001). |
| |
|
|
David
Joined: 20 Oct 2000
Posts: 1381
|
|
Sat Sep 22, 2001 9:04 pm
|
|
|
3T3L1
I can respect some of your reasoning on the issue of asbestos. But here is where is disagree.
"We may now be paying a horrible price for junk science-fueled asbestos hysteria".
I do not believe that is was junk science or hysteria. Much research has been done into the effects of asbestos on the lungs.
People who have been exposed to the fibers do not develope symptoms of asbestosis or lung cancer for 10 to 20 years after the event. Also, the longer the exposure the worse the problem will become.
Some people can live many many years with asbestosis, but in some it progresses rapidly causeing many related problems and eventual death.
Asbestosis is very hard to live with in its mid stages and even more so in the advance stages.
The spraying of chemtrails is also of no help to those of us who have this nasty stuff. On very heavy spray days and for several days afterward, breathing is a laborious effort, and very tireing. Today is such a day with the white out conditions we now have. |
| |
|
|
3T3L1
Joined: 08 Mar 2001
Posts: 1344
Location: Lubbock, Texas |
|
Sat Sep 22, 2001 11:56 pm
|
|
|
My bad. I probably should have deleted that paragraph from my quote. I only added it in the interest of completeness. I didn't intend to endorse the guy's pro-asbestos conclusions, just to bring up another possible explanation for what happened in the aftermath of the deliberate damage done to the twin towers.
If Mr. Milloy's claims about the protective effect of asbestos are correct, it looks like engineers will need to come up with another substance that can keep steel from melting in the short term without destroying people's lungs in the long term.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by 3T3L1 on 09-22-2001] |
| |
|
|
IZAKOVIC
Joined: 09 Jan 2001
Posts: 130
Location: Rijeka, Croatia (Europe) |
|
Sun Sep 23, 2001 12:15 pm
|
|
|
FDR once said: Nothing in politics ever happens by accident, if it happens, you can bet it was planned! And he was in a position to know.
This has reminded me of Ouspensky’s book In Search of the Miraculous, in which he describes the human condition. Here is its part as presented in relevant article posted on
http://cassiopaea.org/cass/beast.htm
"There is an Eastern tale which speaks about a very rich magician who had a great many sheep. But at the same time this magician was very mean. He did not want to hire shepherds, nor did he want to erect a fence about the pasture where his sheep were grazing. The sheep consequently often wandered into the forest, fell into ravines, and so on, and above all they ran away, for they knew that the magician wanted their flesh and skins and this they did not like.
At last the magician found a remedy. He hypnotized his sheep and suggested to them first of all that they were immortal and that no harm was being done to them when they were skinned, that, on the contrary, it would be very good for them and even pleasant; secondly he suggested that the magician was a good master who loved his flock so much that he was ready to do anything in the world for them; and in the third place he suggested to them that if anything at all were going to happen to them it was not going to happen just then, at any rate not that day, and therefore they had no need to think about it. Further the magician suggested to his sheep that they were not sheep at all; to some of them he suggested that they were lions, to others that they were eagles, to others that they were men, and to others that they were magicians.
And after this all his cares and worries about the sheep came to an end. They never ran away again but quietly awaited the time when the magician would require their flesh and skins.
In order to awaken, first of all one must realize that one is in a state of sleep. And, in order to realize that one is, indeed, in a state of sleep, one must recognize and fully understand the nature of the forces which operate to keep one in the state of sleep, or hypnosis. It is absurd to think that this can be done by seeking information from the very source which induces the hypnosis.
Theoretically, (a man can awaken), but practically it is almost impossible because as soon as a man awakens for a moment and opens his eyes, all the forces that caused him to fall asleep begin to act upon him with tenfold energy and he immediately falls asleep again, very often dreaming that the is awake or awakening.”
09-23-2001
IZAKOVIC http://www.deepspace4.com
|
| |
|
|
 
|
|
 Goto page
1, 2 Next
All times are GMT. The time now is Sat May 26, 2012 4:01 pm
|
|
|
|
|
Login
