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3T3L1
Joined: 08 Mar 2001
Posts: 1344
Location: Lubbock, Texas |
 Sat Feb 02, 2002 4:02 pm
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Jay Reynolds says, "The USAF uses a nice software package called FJSIM which handles calculations about the areal extent of groundfall of their jettisoned fuel." "A simple JP-8 detection method chemmie morons might consider using is that if you rear up on your hind legs more than 17 times in a three minute timespan, you may be under the influence of JP-8 sprayed down your throat."
Seeker's article says, "'It wasn't like a mist. It was a full-fledged rain, falling down about the size of a quarter,' said Missi Harrison, Jacob's mother.'"
[Edited 2 times, lastly by 3T3L1 on 02-02-2002] |
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3T3L1
Joined: 08 Mar 2001
Posts: 1344
Location: Lubbock, Texas |
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Sat Feb 02, 2002 5:15 pm
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The FJSIM web site would tend to prefer Ms. Harrison's version over Jay Reynolds'.
http://www.continuum-dynamics.com/research/topics/fjsim_slides/index.html
Both of these classes of computations have confirmed earlier conclusions that the likely groundfall of JP-8 fuel is substantially higher than the more volatile JP-4, reiterating the need for a careful assessment of the environmental impact of fuel jettisoning events involving JP-8. |
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David Morton
Joined: 21 Oct 2001
Posts: 134
Location: underground |
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Sat Feb 02, 2002 8:43 pm
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In my opinion, we are just wasting time debunking the debunkers. It is just not worth it taking them on. It is just what they want anyway. They are not serious. It is just a small pieace of the Devil's work, what they are trying to do. I say, leave them alone, let them "debunk". They are just baiting us.
Dave |
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David Morton
Joined: 21 Oct 2001
Posts: 134
Location: underground |
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Sat Feb 02, 2002 8:47 pm
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Nice little joke, with the "fuel drops". Here in Jersey, we have another repeat day with the weather...It looks like a carbon copy of the 9/11 day, just colder...No clouds...hard edge blue sky..constant temp.
Dave |
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Dan Rockwell
Joined: 10 Dec 2001
Posts: 1988
Location: Stamford, CT, USA |
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Sun Feb 03, 2002 12:18 am
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Well that's just not right. The jets dumping fuel over populated ares like that. I thought that they were only supposed to do it over the ocean. The enviromentlists, etc. have a heart attack if a tanker truck spills a little oil, gas or diesel fuel and even more of a heart attack if someone breaks a thermometer in a classroom. Stuff like that is considered to be a major Hazmat incident here. |
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3T3L1
Joined: 08 Mar 2001
Posts: 1344
Location: Lubbock, Texas |
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Sun Feb 03, 2002 3:37 pm
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No, David. I'm not debunking the debunkers. I'm suggesting that all of us look at the data about a particular type of trail--the type formed when aviation fuel is jettisoned.
•If scientific studies showed that JP-4 jet fuel could be safely dumped at 5000 feet...
•If the current jet fuel, JP-8, evaporates 100 times more slowly, but no studies have been done...
•If there is a documented occurrence of jettisoned jet fuel falling like rain last year in a Fort Worth suburb...
•Is it possible that pilots are unknowingly dumping jet fuel with a very low evaporation rate and unknowingly poisoning people on the ground?
   
[Edited 4 times, lastly by 3T3L1 on 02-03-2002] |
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penumbra
Joined: 24 Apr 2001
Posts: 672
Location: North Carolina |
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Mon Feb 04, 2002 2:12 pm
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hmmmm, "unknowingly"? I don't know 3T3, the pilots are breathing in the same crappy air as the rest of us. With the current amount of air traffic, wouldn't you think that the idea of dumping that much jet fuel all over the place might give some of them pause?( I usually think of pilots as being of higher-than-average intelligence.) |
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3T3L1
Joined: 08 Mar 2001
Posts: 1344
Location: Lubbock, Texas |
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Mon Feb 04, 2002 3:52 pm
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...the pilots are breathing in the same crappy air as the rest of us. With the current amount of air traffic, wouldn't you think that the idea of dumping that much jet fuel all over the place might give some of them pause?
I don't think so, pen. I've read from several sources, Maverick included, that the fuel completely evaporates before it reaches the ground. I expect that somebody told them that, and they simply believed it. (After all, for the old type of jet fuel, the information is true. The problem is, nobody stopped to ask whether it's still true for JP-8, which evaporates much much more slowly.  ) And if you're around jet fuel all day, you probably lose the ability to smell it.
Edit: Apparently there is some confusion about my use of the term "unknowingly dumping." Here's a stab at explaining it: The pilots know they are dumping the fuel. What they don't know is that the fuel has a much lower evaporation rate than is necessary for it to evaporate completely before it reaches the ground.
Although both JP-4 and JP-8 both contain kerosene as their major constituent, JP-4 has an average chemical formula of C9H20, while JP-8 has an average chemical formula of C12H24. ( http://www.combustion.utah.edu/52.html ) For that reason, JP-8 will be significantly less volatile than JP-4.
[Edited 2 times, lastly by 3T3L1 on 02-04-2002] |
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3T3L1
Joined: 08 Mar 2001
Posts: 1344
Location: Lubbock, Texas |
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Tue Feb 05, 2002 2:33 am
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I posted this in the Science Forum, but I'll post it here, too, for those who avoid nerdy forums:
I just called the local FAA office at 806-740-3800. The FAA representative said she had never heard of an FAA regulation saying that the Air Force had to report fuel dumps. In most cases, she said, the FAA never regulates the Air Force at all.
I also spoke with Lt. Colonel Madden in Fort Worth at 817-222-5910. She said that pilots would report fuel dumps to base ops as far as time and lat/long, but that the reports never went to a higher level as far as she knew. Her impression was that if pilots had too much fuel on board, they would do touch and goes and pattern work until the fuel was burned off.
Edit for Maverick: Lt. Col. Madden says she is with the Air Force.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by 3T3L1 on 02-04-2002] |
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3T3L1
Joined: 08 Mar 2001
Posts: 1344
Location: Lubbock, Texas |
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Tue Feb 05, 2002 2:36 am
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And now I shall post Deb's response, which I had to remove from the Science Forum because it is a flame:
quote:
3, good to see you took the initiative to make phone calls. Good to see you take initiative, period.
EDIT: Oops! My bad! Deb said it was a compliment, not a flame. (Just a little paranoia on my part.) Thanks, Deb!
[Edited 1 times, lastly by 3T3L1 on 02-08-2002] |
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penumbra
Joined: 24 Apr 2001
Posts: 672
Location: North Carolina |
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Tue Feb 05, 2002 1:46 pm
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"What they don't know is that the fuel has a much lower evaporation rate than is necessary for it to evaporate completely before it reaches the ground."
Okay, I'll buy that. Even so, some of these guys have got to see that something is wrong.  |
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penumbra
Joined: 24 Apr 2001
Posts: 672
Location: North Carolina |
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Tue Feb 05, 2002 4:00 pm
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hey scanner! actually, i read that same article about an hour ago  |
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penumbra
Joined: 24 Apr 2001
Posts: 672
Location: North Carolina |
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Tue Feb 05, 2002 4:10 pm
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It's too bad that this "insider" has chosen to shroud himself in secrecy. We need someone with that type of credentials to step forward and tell what they know. It seems very plausible that the flu could do most of us in. What with all the immunological problems... |
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Scanner
Joined: 06 Sep 2001
Posts: 207
Location: Shreveport, LA |
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Tue Feb 05, 2002 5:44 pm
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Yep...I had the same thought. When information is anonymous, you tend not to believe it. I did read a while back about some scientists in England wanting to dig up some people who died of the Spanish Flu back in the early 1900's so they could "study the disease." They did dig up some bodies in Norway, I think, but they were supposedly not able to use them. Jeez! Why dig up something that dangerous. Unless, of course, you are up to something. The article is certainly thought-provoking, however. I've read some similar things in the past about turning the USA into a nature park for the elite, but thought it was pretty far-fetched. Things have gotten so wierd lately I may have to re-think that position. Those "chemtrails" are there for some purpose. We just need to know what.
Scanner
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Scanner on 02-05-2002] |
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