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Dumbfounded
Joined: 26 Dec 2001
Posts: 15
Location: United States of America |
Can't believe my eyes!
 Thu Dec 27, 2001 1:20 am
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I have to be honest, I've never heard the term "Chemtrail" until today. I don't even remember how I stumbled upon your website. When I got here though I have been reading your stories and looking at your pictures literally all day! As a professional pilot for the last 15 years I have been "up close and personal" to many many jets of all shapes and sizes. I've also witnessed many a contrail as it passed above and below me (Two jets at an altitude above 29000 feet can pass as close as 2000 feet to one another. That is less than 1/2 of a mile, each doing over 500 mph!) I have over 8000 hours as a professional pilot and more than half of that is jet time. I currently am a DC-9 Captain. I have seen contrails at 18000 feet and I have seen planes at 45000 feet not leave a mark in the sky. I've seen Cessna Citations (leave huge billowy contrails and 747's leave nothing! Some contrails end 100 yards behind the airplane and some go from horizon to horizon...I've followed them...I've flown through them (Bumpy!) and I've watched them start and stop in the sky, break up even. As a matter of fact since each airplane is 2000 feet apart the next altitude choice you have in an airliner is 4000 feet higher. If you are flying in turbulence at your altitude one old trick is to look at the contrail of the jets going the other way or the ones higher....if their contrails are smooth and long then you probably want to climb because the air is smoother up there. If their contrail is choppy then it's probably not worth going up...bumpy there too. Colored contrails??? Simple, refraction. The contrail itself is condensed moisture...we all know that water drops and in this case ice crystals refract the sun light just like a prism. Simple. Just like the beautiful sunsets that we had here in the Midwest during the tragic wildfires out West...they were gorgeous...lots of particles in the air to refract the light! I have lots more to share but sore fingers from typing!
I think I can give you rational and clear thinking answers to many of your questions and/or observations. Please ask...and notice I am not here judging you, please give me the respect that I have tried to give you and your viewpoints today. I don't promise to have all of the answers and/or think I will change all of your minds...but some of you are wondering...I know, let me try to explain from someone who has been there Thank you! |
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Lulu
Joined: 22 Dec 2000
Posts: 2501
Location: right here |
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Thu Dec 27, 2001 2:19 am
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A helpful pilot! Just what we need. I'm sure there's lots of questions from our members. I'll have to get back to you later as I'm right in the middle of uploading My Chemtrail Diary to my site.
Nice to have you with us Dumbfounded. |
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mark sky
Joined: 14 Oct 2000
Posts: 3616
Location: SW coast of Oregon |
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Thu Dec 27, 2001 4:47 am
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Hi dumbfounded
you may not have heard of ElvisLives
but he claimed he read everything there was to read about chemtrails
in just one week~before he tried to "help us"
he must have had ultra high speed DSL
and unlimited access to DEA "powder room
supplies"
of course he hadn't flown every kind of plane
he was just an environmental atmospherics expert with a crazy sick sister who saw chemtrails
i dont suppose you know him though
never mind |
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FLKook
Joined: 28 Apr 2001
Posts: 710
Location: East Central Florida |
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Thu Dec 27, 2001 5:44 am
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Welcome Dumbfounded, it would be nice to have a pilot to field questions that is not a disinfo artist. Hope you are as sincere as you appear to be at first glance. How long have you been lurking here? Long enough to read Thermit's report? www.chemtrailcentral.com/report.shtml That might be a good place to start while some of us are getting questions together. There are plenty. Maybe you could answer some of the many that you happen upon in your reading here. Lord knows, that many of us have the same questions and most are vented over and over here on various threads. |
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Thermit
Joined: 08 Jul 2000
Posts: 3136
Location: Texas |
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Thu Dec 27, 2001 5:58 am
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DF,
Thanks for your insights on contrails.
Perhaps you'd be willing to look at some research and give your thoughts on it. Yeah contrails are sometimes misidentified as Chemtrails, I've seen it happen, but ultimately contrails are not what we are interested in. There appears to be a separate phenomenon occuring. |
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Dumbfounded
Joined: 26 Dec 2001
Posts: 15
Location: United States of America |
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Thu Dec 27, 2001 5:41 pm
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Hello again,
Thank you for the welcome everyone. To answer some of your questions already, I've been here (your website) just a couple of days. I am in the process of reading the Thermit report as we speak. I must say this website and everything in it is very well done, kudos to the designers and maintainers. I know alot of your are probably leary of me but let me just say this to be very clear and honest...I am a guest in YOUR house IMO. I do not believe in chemtrail activity at this time. I am reading everything you have here and maybe I will change my mind. I want to be here though as a "Devil's Advocate" not a finger pointer. Right now I'm in the dissemanation stage...there is alot of info on this and other sites. I only post here though. Thanks again for the welcome and "Let's have some fun!!" |
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watcher2002
Joined: 10 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: O-klahoma where the winds come sweeping down the plains. |
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Thu Dec 27, 2001 10:39 pm
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"I think I can give you rational and clear thinking answers to many of your questions and/or observations. Please ask...and notice I am not here judging you, please give me the respect that I have tried to give you and your viewpoints today. I don't promise to have all of the answers and/or think I will change all of your minds...but some of you are wondering...I know, let me try to explain from someone who has been there".
Hi dumbfounded,
I am glad you posted here. I've only posted about 3 or 4 times since I joined. Ok, I have a question or questions and I have talked to a friend of mine who is a pilot or is in school to be a pilot, I asked him about these trails and he says that it's simple "condensation" (hacked up that spelling) trails and nothing more...
Depending on altitude, weather, etc.. there will be more or less on any given days, he says. Now for my question though. Why would there be planes STAYING in an area and turning around and coming back and forth, they are not going on but are staying in an area and the trails are being laid. Why would this happen?
I could maybe believe some of this stuff about it being no big deal but I've seen this before and wondered if you knew what I'm talking about?
The planes are mostly always white and some with white and red on them... Thanks |
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FLKook
Joined: 28 Apr 2001
Posts: 710
Location: East Central Florida |
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Fri Dec 28, 2001 3:23 am
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For a new guy watcher you pretty much nailed one of the most perplexing aspects of this. The systematic, patterns of planes going nowhere. Maybe watching from the ground will give our new friend Dumbfounded a new perspective.
I mean that sincerely Dumbfounded, because your credentials as a pilot and your familiarity with contrails are valuable tools but ground observation does lend to a completely different view rather than being part of the traffic so to speak.
Instead of all jumping at once with a zillion questions, let's just take it one at a time and look first at watcher's query, OK? It is a very valid question. I've witnessed these concentrated efforts on one area many times, including today.
Thanks again for having the courage to jump in with honest curiosity. There are some that would have folks believe that "chemtrail activists" are this wild eyed breed of fanatic and this board in particular not welcoming to those who do not "believe." IMO you are not the only one who started looking at this whole issue a bit askance initially. Keep reading. Better yet, look up. |
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hitech_46253
Joined: 16 May 2001
Posts: 499
Location: Indianapolis, IN U.S. |
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Fri Dec 28, 2001 7:29 pm
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Dear Dumbfounded,
If you would, click this: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LLNews/message/210
It is a one page summary I put together on CHEMTRAILS. The online interview is still active at this time. Hyperlinks lead to supporting material. Bear in mind that the government has already ADMITTED to spraying, they just say it's for global warming. The Spotlight newspaper confirmed 4 different military programs involving spraying different material. 1. Weather modification, 2. Biological testing, 3. 3d Radar type imaging, 4. ???? can't remember.
Larry
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Dumbfounded
Joined: 26 Dec 2001
Posts: 15
Location: United States of America |
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Mon Dec 31, 2001 12:17 am
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Hello again! I've been away (Flying and family...holidays ya know!) but am back now and got my first question!
"Why would there be planes STAYING in an area and turning around and coming back and forth, they are not going on but are staying in an area and the trails are being laid. Why would this happen?"
First let me say that unless I'm standing next to you or see a useful picture than it is hard for me to say for sure what is going on. I do know this though. Military tankers fly circular patterns during their mission. I live near (Relatively that is.) to a military air training area. I've seen the circular patterns and actually have seen fighters following the tanker around the circular pattern. As a matter of fact in this instance in particular the tanker was leaving a contrail and the fighters weren't. Ah huh!! You say Well I don't think that observation itself proves "chemtrails". I think what it does prove is the tanker was probably using a very high power setting (Full of fuel, it was refueling 5-7 fighters, can't remember for sure.) and the fighters, being fighters, were using a low power setting to "keep up". Typical jet cockpits show the EGT or Exhaust Gas Temperature of each jet engine or TGT Turbine Gas Temperature. They are essentially the same but the TGT is measured before the bypass air is added to the exhaust thus it is generally hotter. Typical temperatures in the DC-9 during normal cruise are 420C. Now if I decide to fly at a lower speed I may pull power back to save fuel and maybe then the TGT is 390C. If I get told to slow considerably or decide to descend I would pull the power to idle and then the temp might be 300C. These are all approximate but close due to the fact that daily we do engine trend readings....we read and record this and other data for the mechanics. This, I believe, explains the "starting and stopping" of the "chemtrails". It's not unusual to be asked to slow to avoid holding and in that instance I would pull the power to idle and once I slowed reapply it to maintain speed. Also, remember the fact that military planes don't fly nearly as much as a commercial jetliner. So! you say. Well the reason that matters is jet fuel and water are approximately the same density unlike gasoline...again you say, So! Well, water doesn't necessarily sink to the bottom of jet fuel...it suspends. It gets mixed in. That water could add to the contrail of the jet because it just gets pumped through the engine with the fuel. Commercial jets are used almost constantly to make money...there fuel tanks are very clean. Military jets can sit for a long time in-between missions. I DO NOT have any evidence or experience to back up those claims though...just makes sense though with my knowledge of the planes themselves.
Another, less likely but still possible explanation is holding pattern for busy arrivals. Almost all large airports have arrivals and departures that ALL planes follow in and out. This keeps things orderly. Along those arrivals there are generally holding patterns depicted to show where a pilot could expect to hold if things get backed up. These patterns are oblong and circular in shape but usually at lower altitudes...but not always! Occasionally you will start to hold and then be given decent in the hold so you are able to save fuel. If I can figure out how I will take a picture of a typical arrival and show these points out to you all. Well I have the pictures now but can't get them on...hmmmm. Flying a jet is easier! Oh well they are here and so am I...I'll be back Thanks for the interest!
DF
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Thermit
Joined: 08 Jul 2000
Posts: 3136
Location: Texas |
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Mon Dec 31, 2001 12:42 am
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Thanks for your ideas, DF.
Maybe you can get a couple of your pictures scanned in and uploaded, would be interesting to see... |
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Dumbfounded
Joined: 26 Dec 2001
Posts: 15
Location: United States of America |
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Mon Dec 31, 2001 1:48 am
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Thermit actually I do have the photos but the website says they are too big (only 186 kb). Any ideas...maybe I could email them..I have 2. |
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Thermit
Joined: 08 Jul 2000
Posts: 3136
Location: Texas |
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Mon Dec 31, 2001 4:49 am
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Yeah, just send them to me and I'll trim them down... |
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Dumbfounded
Joined: 26 Dec 2001
Posts: 15
Location: United States of America |
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Mon Dec 31, 2001 5:20 am
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They are on the way!! |
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Dumbfounded
Joined: 26 Dec 2001
Posts: 15
Location: United States of America |
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Mon Dec 31, 2001 1:07 pm
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I just posted a picture of an approach plate into Newark NJ to show the holding patterns that are possible explanations of the circular patterns. The picture is in the "Reference" section and titled "Arrival to Newark (EWR)" Please read this description and view the photo at the same time...thanks
This is a photo of one of my approach plates into Newark, New Jersey. It is one of many arrivals to this busy airport. All major airports in the US have arrival and departure procedures. This arrival (And all others) "guide" the pilots along the same routes in and on the same routes out of these airports. If you follow the routing starting in the West (Left side of the photo.) It starts over the GEE VOR (Geneseo) and then continues outbound on the 111 degree radial to Extol intersection. At Extol you will turn right to a 133 degree heading and fly to the Hancock VOR (HNK). Before you get to Hancock though you will see a circular pattern on the airway (At Kodey intersection.). This is a holding pattern that Air Traffic Control (ATC) can put traffic into if things are getting backed up at the airport or on the arrival. Anyone who would live under or near this holding pattern on a clear day may see circular patterns in the sky. It's not a "Blitz of Chemicals" it's a jet holding on an arrival at a busy airport. There are thousands of these all over the country. As you can see if you follow the line to the right and then down (The airport is on the bottom of the page, not visible.) There are 3 chances to hold just on this one arrival! Now these depicted holding patterns are just for planning purposes...that is a place you would expect to hold if things get busy or backed up. ATC can hold you anywhere they want..they may tell you to do a 360 degree turn for spacing. Also in these holding patterns there may be 3,4,5 or more jets "stacked up" vertically |
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