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Duncan Kunz
Joined: 19 Oct 2000
Posts: 582
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Barium as a Causative
 Mon Feb 11, 2002 10:55 pm
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One of the most difficult sets of data to investigate seems to be that of barium as an aerosol component. I have seen many discussions of barium on various chemtrail web-sites, as shown below.
At http://www.geocities.com/canadianchemtrails/MustReadArticle.html , a poster named WINTER says:
"The principal chemical being deposited in the air consists of various mixtures of barium salts, which were revealed in studies undertaken by a Pennsylvania-based high-tech weapons scientist. Chemicals, he said, were being utilized as part of the development of a new radar system at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio."
The "Pennsylvania-based high-tech weapons scientist" was not identified nor was his work cited.
"Considerable effort has been put into chemtrail research by a physicist who has been associated with Brookhaven National Laboratory on Long Island, N.Y. The scientist, with his fellow researchers, has determined that the chemtrails are being created by efforts of the military in at least four major, but separate, projects."
The "physicist who has been associated with Brookhaven National Laboratory" is not identified, nor is his work cited.
WINTER continues in the same post, [discussing the Navy's Radio Frequency Mission Planner (RFMP) program that requires ducting of radar emissions to enable OTH propagation]:
"This 'ducting' problem was solved by releasing an aerosol, a mixture of barium salts into the atmosphere over the United States. Thus, they can make an atmospheric radio frequency 'duct' with a base of barium aerosol released from aircraft."
There is no mention of anyone doing such a release, nor was any work on ducting-by-barium cited.
Toni Thayer, at the Rense.Com site ( http://www.geocities.com/canadianchemtrails/ ) says:
"Another possibility is barium salt mixtures. The Variable Terrain Radio Parabolic Equation (VTRPE) shows pilots what nearby radar systems can and cannot see under different terrain and atmospheric conditions. It was tested and perfected after aerosol barium titanate salt mixture was released from military aircraft, forming chemical trails in the atmosphere across America. Barium salts were also used in Libya, Panama and Desert Storm where they were sprayed and exploded overhead to make the people extremely sick and weak. It s a radioactive material that accelerates and magnifies the effects of other mix ingredients by altering the chemical structure of the other agents. A spectrum analysis reveals only the barium compounds and hides the 'bad stuff' by placing a shell around it. After time, it releases the other agent. Think of it as a time release death pill."
Again, Ms. Thayer does not mention who released the barium, or how barium was released, or what the source of such release was.
Clifford Carnicom, (http://www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm ), says:
"The following is a list of conditions, observations and analyses which focus direct attention on barium and barium compounds within the investigation of the aerosol operations that are occurring without informed consent:" [list follows]
but does not provide any information as to whether or not barium has been detected.
A March 1999 report from Photon Research Associates, Inc., an aerospace contractor involved in developing defense based algorithms for radar projects, discusses both the RFMP program and the VTRPE program used in modeling communication. It can be found at http://www.photon.com/About%20Photon%20Research/ Corp%20&%20Divisons/Port%20Jefferson/Radar%20Systems/rdrscegen/vtrpe/vtrpe.htm . However, I have not found any mention of barium being used to enhance propagation in any of the literature.
My question is this: Where does the whole barium thing come from? With all the discussion on barium on the chemtrail sites, I assume that it's not just made up by someone - in other words, there must be some documentation somewhere. But all I can find is Article A quoting a post in B, which references a post C, which cites Study D, which points to Article A again.
I am sure that people on this site have done more research than I have on this question. Can anyone point me towards some documentation on this? This could be very important.
Regards,
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Duncan Kunz / duncankunz@home.com
Mesa AZ / 480-891-2525
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Duncan Kunz on 02-11-2002] |
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Thermit
Joined: 08 Jul 2000
Posts: 3136
Location: Texas |
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Tue Feb 12, 2002 12:00 am
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Duncan, my understanding of this is that the whole "barium thing" came from Carnicom. It is based on three things, as far as I can tell: Anonymous Sources, Deductions and Spectroscopy. Issues with the deductions and spectroscopy were discussed here last year in the Science forum...
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum14/HTML/000004.html
quote:
http://www.carnicom.com/case1.htm
2. An anonymous source of information stated to be reliable:
Information has been offered to the public by an anonymous source in the earlier portion of the year 2000. This source is
simply stated to be reliable to the highest order, and it is stated that the identity of the source must be protected. This
source states that the material being delivered by aircraft is composed of barium salts, and that it is being used in
connection with advanced radar studies. No further information on this aspect of the research is available at this time.
quote:
http://www.carnicom.com/deduct1.htm
THE BARIUM DEDUCTION
Clifford E Carnicom
May 30 2001
The following is a list of conditions, observations and analyses which focus direct attention on barium and barium compounds within the investigation of the aerosol operations that are occurring without informed consent:
1. Aerosol is a salt crystal; absorbs moisture at low levels of relative humidity, i.e., hygroscopic.
2. Is expected to be soluble.
3. Reactive with water but not explosive.
4. Reacts with cold water.
5. Is alkaline in nature when combined with water.
6. Provides uniques spectrometry signature in the visible light range which are identified with a specific element.
7. Is ionizable as evidenced by particulate imagery.
8. Is colorless or white.
9. Electrolytic in nature; i.e., subject to disassociation of ions in water.
10. Microwave frequencies are subject to disruption with injection of particles into the atmosphere.
11. Has an estimated vapor pressure of approximately .0143torr at -50deg. C.
12.Historical interest and experimentation documented with use of element(s) in ionization and plasma physics.
13. Respiratory distress associated with ingestion into the respiratory tract.
14. Highly probable to involve a product of combustion.
15. Favorable conditions for aerosol dispersion include increased moisture content and higher relative temperature.
quote:
http://www.carnicom.com/spectra1.htm
BARIUM AFFIRMED
BY
SPECTROSCOPY
November 1 2000
Edited Dec 12 2000
Clifford E Carnicom
The unusual presence of the element barium in the atmosphere now appears to have been affirmed through the methods of spectroscopy. Spectroscopy is "the study of the absorption and emission of light and other radiation by matter, as related to the dependence of these processes on the wavelength of the radiation" (Enc. Brittanica). The results of the current research are now sufficient to establish an analytical basis for the formal investigation of radical atmospheric changes induced by relatively recent aircraft aerosol operations. This work further confirms the recent findings that have substantiated the unusual presence of an alkaline salt form in the atmosphere, as revealed through recent pH tests conducted across the country. Barium compounds, especially those of a soluble nature, are regarded as a serious health risk, and they are commonly associated with respiratory distress.
[Edited 2 times, lastly by Thermit on 02-11-2002] |
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hooligan
Joined: 02 Feb 2002
Posts: 76
Location: Seattle |
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Tue Feb 12, 2002 1:08 am
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"It has also been proposed to release large clouds of barium in the magnetosphere so that photoionization will increase the cold plasma density, thereby producing electron precipitation through enhanced whistler-mode interactions"-Bernard Eastlund
I know that doesn't help much with who is spraying it... |
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Duncan Kunz
Joined: 19 Oct 2000
Posts: 582
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Tue Feb 12, 2002 1:42 am
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Thanks, thermit. You're the go-to guy. If the spectroscopy thing worked as advertised, that would've meant that you can use a spectroscope to get a reading of a particular compound, i.e., barium, in situ. Unfortunately, Carnicom doesn't say who did this spectroanalysis, or even if it was done.
"The unusual presence of the element barium in the atmosphere now appears to have been affirmed through the methods of spectroscopy", is what he says, and leaves it at that.
hooligan, thanks for the quote. I'm not sure I know what it means, but two things stick out here:
"It has also been proposed to release large clouds of barium in the magnetosphere...."
Eastlund says it's been proposed; I assume that means it hasn't been done -- not yet, anyway. And if it had, the magnetosphere, where he proposes injecting it, is typically considered as most active in the 50- to 200-kilometer altitude -- certainly not in the same area where chemtrails are reported.
Thanks for your comments, both of you. I will continue to poke around this barium business.
Regards,
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Duncan Kunz / duncankunz@home.com
Mesa AZ / 480-891-2525
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Duncan Kunz on 02-11-2002] |
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Thermit
Joined: 08 Jul 2000
Posts: 3136
Location: Texas |
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Tue Feb 12, 2002 2:17 am
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From reading the spectrascopy link, it appears that he did perform some measurements. These are listed in the associated table on that page. |
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hooligan
Joined: 02 Feb 2002
Posts: 76
Location: Seattle |
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Tue Feb 12, 2002 3:46 am
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check out the other thread "the army owns the weather" and it also talks about Eastlund and releasing barium into the atmosphere.
Thermit, can you link it to here, I don't know how. |
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Thermit
Joined: 08 Jul 2000
Posts: 3136
Location: Texas |
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Tue Feb 12, 2002 5:30 am
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quote:
A scientist from Wright Patterson Air Force Base acknowledges that planes are spraying barium salt, polymer fibers, aluminum oxide and other chemicals in the atmosphere to both modify the weather and for military communications purposes.
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001060.html |
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Duncan Kunz
Joined: 19 Oct 2000
Posts: 582
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Tue Feb 12, 2002 6:05 am
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once again, I could've saved myself some time by reading 3T3L1 and toxdoc first!
I'm beginning to have second thoughts about Eastlund. What little I'd read earlier made me blow him off as a pseudo-scientist who was getting fringe-y as he passed his prime. Now, however, I'm not so sure. It's obvious he'd done sound work in the past. I need to read up more on him, and try to figure out what he's talking about. He could be on to something.
Carnicom's site is pretty much a dead end. 3T3 and toxdoc showed his work as questionable at best. Maybe you ought to send him a copy of your FE work.
The article from "Columbus Alive" is another 'anonymous source'-type "...scientist from Wright Patterson Air Force Base acknowledges that planes are spraying barium salt, polymer fibers, aluminum oxide and other chemicals in the atmosphere to both modify the weather and for military communications purposes...."
I did e-mail Bob Fitrakis asking him where he got his information. Often, a journalist will take someone else's sources as gospel. But maybe not. Maybe Fitrakis can tell me where he got the info about the Wright-Pat guy and what he said.
I do know that, if there really was a guy at Wright-Pat talking that stuff, then it's not classified. And if it's not classified, it ought to be in the literature somewhere.
Based on what I know so far, I'm going to put Barium down as a "probably no such thing". But the more I read about this Eastlund guy, the more my curiousity is piqued. Maybe I ought to start dredging up old IEEE papers or something.
Anyway, thanks for your ongoing help. If I find out anything more, I'll try and update it at the science forum.
Duncan |
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FLKook
Joined: 28 Apr 2001
Posts: 710
Location: East Central Florida |
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Tue Feb 12, 2002 5:08 pm
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Keep digging Duncan, we appreciate your efforts and look forward to the day when your moniker of "Debunker but nice about it" is changed to Ex-Debunker and still nice about it" Your open mind is appreciated especailly from this die-hard "believer".
Wish I could drag you outside and point up at my sky today. You'd be hard pressed to call this normal traffic patterns or contrails. Yes Duncan, even you have to believe your eyes at some point in spite of the "official spin" on the topic. Understandable, you're still waiting on that smoking gun. Hey, even Thomas had to feel the wounds in Christs side before he'd believe. |
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3T3L1
Joined: 08 Mar 2001
Posts: 1344
Location: Lubbock, Texas |
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Tue Feb 12, 2002 6:02 pm
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Duncan, if memory serves (and often it doesn't) I think I looked up Dr. Eastlund's name on the NASA search engine and found a bunch of references early last year. I found even more references when I spelled his name wrong--"Easlund" or "Easland." They did do some barium releases from a rocket, and that sounded like legitimate science.
As you noticed from the Science Forum discussions, Clifford's spectroscopy experiment seems to be theoretically impossible to perform. If you do correspond with him, perhaps you could get him to outline his materials and methods so that we could try to reproduce the experiment in Mesa and Lubbock.
Like others who weren't around the chemtrail conspiracy story since the beginning, I had no idea where the idea of putting barium into the atmosphere came from and assumed that the theory came from Clifford Carnicom. According to Jay Reynolds, it was originally proposed by A.C. Griffith. Look here for the story according to Jay: http://pub31.ezboard.com/fcontrailsandchemtrails22884frm1.showMessage?topicID=304.topic |
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Duncan Kunz
Joined: 19 Oct 2000
Posts: 582
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Wed Feb 13, 2002 4:55 am
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Thank you, FLKook.
I am glad that you consider me to have an open mind. I think that open-mindedness is absolutely key in any situation where you want to get away from what "everyone thinks" just because "everyone" thinks it -- and get to what you think the truth is based on however you read the evidence.
Regards,
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Duncan Kunz / duncankunz@home.com
Mesa AZ / 480-891-2525 |
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