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cydoniaquest
Joined: 12 Aug 2000
Posts: 797
Location: nowhere |
Chemtrail Identifiers Revisited
 Mon Oct 30, 2000 9:46 am
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DELETED BY THE ARTIST FORMALLY KNOWN AS CYDONIAQUEST
[Edited 2 times, lastly by cydoniaquest on 01-13-2001] |
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Duncan Kunz
Joined: 19 Oct 2000
Posts: 582
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Mon Oct 30, 2000 11:20 am
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Dear Cydoniaquest:
I admit I have not followed all the arguments on this board; maybe there is agreement between you and the skeptics/debunkers on this. If this is the case, I apologize; bring me up to date, and we shall move on.
However, I do have some concerns about your three statements. Perhaps it is only a matter of semantics. Let me take a whack at each of them.
“Fact1: Chemtrails which are often seen laid down in formation and parallel lines are not made by commercial passenger aircraft.”
Why not? I consider parallel contrails indicative of parallel aircraft. Since many commercial aircraft fly the same routes at the same time, I’d think that most parallel contrails were made by commercial aircraft, not military ones.
Now I admit I haven’t used one of those programs that enable you to determine the identity of aircraft overflying your location, but I know many here and on Mr. Carnicom’s board have. Have any of them done a day-by-day evaluation of overflying parallel aircraft and not found a correlation between them and the scheduled commercial flights? If so, then you have good backing to the veracity of your first statement. If not, you don’t. Again, I don’t have any of this information.
“Fact 2: Chemtrails have unusual refractive properties producing a rainbow or oil slick effect not found in the opaque ice crystals of normal contrails.”
Based solely on my observations (I am not a meteorologist, nor am I an expert on refractive processes) I would disagree. I have seen, under various conditions, prismatic effects around just about every type of contrail imaginable, except for the very tight ones immediately showing up behind an aircraft. I’ve seen these prismatic effects in “dashed” contrails, solid ones, several contrails merged into one, spreading contrails on their way to becoming cirrus clouds, and even virga-producing post-contrail cirrus clouds. My guess is that refractive phenomena are more a function of sun angle and intensity, and thickness of the contrail, than anything else.
“Fact 3: Natural contrails only form in conditions of around -42 degrees Celsius and a relative humidity of a 5 to 7 degree Celsius temp/dewpoint spread.”
That sounds right to me. But inasmuch as none of us (without built-in doppler radar) can estimate either altitude nor weather conditions thousands of meters straight up, I have assumed that the aircraft are following the rules of physics, and that if you see any kind of contrails, you are probably looking at an environment of around –40 degrees and 100 percent RH. From what I’ve heard, that is, more often than not, typical atmospheric conditions at around 9000 – 10000 meters.
Now, again, I am not conversant with all the latest hypotheses here, so maybe all of you (Reynolds, Carnicom, Seeker, Chickie Deb, etc.) agree on the three assertions you made. If so, I’d certainly be more than happy to look at the figures again. Let me know.
Regards,
Duncan Kunz
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nikonman
Joined: 15 Jul 2000
Posts: 16
Location: Ohio |
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Mon Oct 30, 2000 3:33 pm
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http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/cgi-bin/db-search.cgi
JR, which shots shall we ask Boeing about? Check these out. Is there a Boeing plant in Ohio? I thought they were in Washington? I doubt very much if Boeing is totally responsible for everything we see in the skies.
ooppps ..... do a search images, just type nikonman.
nikonman.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by nikonman on 10-30-2000] |
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LTC8K6
Joined: 20 Oct 2000
Posts: 267
Location: Tar Heel State |
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Mon Oct 30, 2000 4:09 pm
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Why is everyone doing this the hard way? If there is a common air route, then as aircraft use it one after the other, and the contrails drift, you get parallel contrails. What is the big deal here? |
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canex
Joined: 26 Oct 2000
Posts: 164
Location: USA |
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Mon Oct 30, 2000 5:19 pm
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IF you have ever flown very much or looked at charts of the expenditure of jet fuel or even thought about it much, you would be surprised if you did not see parallel contrails. How many planes fly from one hub to another each day? How many planes fly up the west coast, east coast, over the midwest? PLanes do not fly randomly, they go from point a to point b as they are directed by ATC. If they did not have some cohesion on flight plans (i.e., fly the same routes spaced either in time or vertically), it would be too difficult to keep track of all oth eair traffic.
I have posted numerous explanations concerning the optical effects of contrails. THey do not differ from natural cirrus cloud optical phenomena. The ice crystals in natural cirrus clouds are not opaque just like the ice cubes in your freezer are not opaque. They transmit, absorb, and bend light just like regular old ice. They produce other interesting effects also because of their many different shapes, sizes, and orientations and because of the varied sun-contrail-observer viewing geometry.
Contrails have been observed at temperatures as warm as -35C and soundings are not the whole story. See other post. |
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Duncan Kunz
Joined: 19 Oct 2000
Posts: 582
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Mon Oct 30, 2000 7:30 pm
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Dear Colleagues:
Mr. Reynolds, we get pictures on our own Intranet site whenever Boeing rolls out a new aircraft or variant. In most cases, the first or second flight (where there may be a chase plane for publicity photos) is typically at a lower level. When flying a completely new aircraft, like the F-23 or JSF, the first flight often does not involve getting the gear up. My guess that there are few if any chase planes flying at an altitude where either aircraft would produce contrails (i.e., 8000 - 10000 meters).
I believe that Mr. Canex's suggestion that parallel contrails are the result of different aircraft flying parallel routes (separated by ~500 meters altitude or ~ five minutes time) are the most obvious reason for parallel contrails.
Mr. Nikonman, Boeing does not have any large-scale manufacturing facilities in Ohio. Most of our commercial aircraft are built in the greater Seattle area of Washington State, or the greater Los Angeles area of California. Most of our military aircraft are built in St. Louis, Missouri, and our military helicopters are built either in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (tandem rotorcraft such as the CH-47) or Mesa, Arizona (The AH-64D Apache Longbow).
I agree that Boeing is not responsible for everything we see in the skies, but with the majority of both world-wide commercial and American military aircraft being built by my company, a large majority certainly is - with more to come, hopefully!
By the way, can I assume from your handle that you are a photographer? I recently bought a Nikon CP990 and am having a great time with it. If you're a digital-photography person, let me know; we could compare notes.
Regards,
Duncan Kunz / duncan.kunz@prodigy.net
Mesa AZ / 480-891-2525
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cydoniaquest
Joined: 12 Aug 2000
Posts: 797
Location: nowhere |
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Mon Oct 30, 2000 7:58 pm
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DELETED BY THE ARTIST FORMALLY KNOWN AS CYDONIAQUEST
[Edited 4 times, lastly by cydoniaquest on 01-13-2001] |
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elvis lives
Joined: 30 Sep 2000
Posts: 143
Location: Pismo Beach, California |
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Mon Oct 30, 2000 8:20 pm
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Same crap...different day.
So you have a picture of 3 Military jets leaving contrails. WOOPIE
So you have a picture of normal clouds reflecting light. WOOPIE
Don't quit your day job, 1000's of rocket scientists out of work. |
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LTC8K6
Joined: 20 Oct 2000
Posts: 267
Location: Tar Heel State |
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Mon Oct 30, 2000 8:27 pm
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Since there is no way to tell how far apart those 3 planes are, they could be anything at all, including commercial planes carrying passengers. There is not enough information there to rule anything out or in. Only 2 of the craft are parallel anyway. That's about all I can get out of that photo. What does 1,000 feet of seperation look like from 2 miles away? |
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LTC8K6
Joined: 20 Oct 2000
Posts: 267
Location: Tar Heel State |
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Mon Oct 30, 2000 8:51 pm
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What about the cargo carriers? U.P.S. and FEDEX and the others? They operate thousands of flights between them daily. They also charter a lot of planes. Are they shown on FlightTracker? |
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cydoniaquest
Joined: 12 Aug 2000
Posts: 797
Location: nowhere |
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Mon Oct 30, 2000 10:09 pm
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DELETED BY THE ARTIST FORMALLY KNOWN AS CYDONIAQUEST
[Edited 1 times, lastly by cydoniaquest on 01-13-2001] |
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canex
Joined: 26 Oct 2000
Posts: 164
Location: USA |
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Tue Oct 31, 2000 1:04 pm
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I suppose the next thing I will have to do is prove that ice crystals are made of water. Give me a break. Do you think that clouds are white because the ice crystals or water droplets are opaque? They're not. They are white because they scatter light of all visible wavelengths equally except at certain angles (e.g., rainbow direction 140 deg; glory 178 deg; halo at 22 and 46 deg). Is your ice cube clear? Is your glass of water clear?
Do you think that most ice crystal optical phenomena consist of distinct color separation? They don't. Many times all you get is a blurred faint color or two expecially in sundogs. The oil slick phenom is known as irridescence and can be found in any decent book on cloud optical phenomena. It is usually associated with small droplets or crystals, sizes typical in contrails. Please see my other post about the -35 stuff. I am not going to keep repeating the same stuff I have been posting for years on these boards. |
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LTC8K6
Joined: 20 Oct 2000
Posts: 267
Location: Tar Heel State |
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Tue Oct 31, 2000 3:19 pm
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CY,
Judging by the other photos of those 3 jets on contrailconnection, I don't think they are flying parallel or in formation at all. I think they are commercial jets. I see no reason to say they are anything else. Two of them are nearly parallel, but not actually, judging from the other photos. Of course, it is difficult to judge how far apart they are, really. I think the 4th jet, visible in the other photos, is much farther away, but again, that is only a guesstimate.
What makes you believe they are flying too close together? Do you have an altitude estimate on any of the jets? I don't see how you figure they could not be normal commercial traffic. Unless you have more information than me, that is.
What is an opaque ice crystal? Snowflakes are not opaque. Am I not understanding something here?
[Edited 1 times, lastly by LTC8K6 on 10-31-2000] |
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Thermit
Joined: 08 Jul 2000
Posts: 3136
Location: Texas |
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Tue Oct 31, 2000 3:26 pm
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quote:
Am i correct, Thermit, that others besides myself have submitted guest nominations, and that you will invite those you find suitable?
No other nominations. Like I said before I don't have time to be the central organizor for this. Anybody can invite anybody they want...
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