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  Civil or Military?

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Topic:   Civil or Military?

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nikonman
Senior Member

Ohio
16 posts, Jul 2000

posted 08-11-2000 07:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for nikonman   Visit nikonman's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi folks!

Was reading some posts from our experts here, and comparing my experiences.

1. These trails have to be military in origin. The activity pattern is such that I can rule out heavy civil flights from any major airport. If they were, then they would not be confined to a 4 hour period, and only on infrequent days. Airlines operating from major airports (Chicago, Detroit, and Cleveland (in my case)) would not confine flight activity to a 4 hour period. This observation is based on my experience on 8/4/00 when I witnessed 3 simultaneous aircraft in the sky every 3-5 minutes for almost 4 hours. That would mean that Chicago O'Hare would have to send every flight out over NE Ohio for me to see the planes, even if it were a Westbound flight. Seeing as how Chicago is in another state, that's probably not the case. If these were regularly scheduled flights, why don't I see them everyday? Regular flights are a part of the airlines activity which generates a profit for them. O'Hare has been called the busiest airport in the world, they are not the busiest airport ONLY ON CERTAIN DAYS?

My local regional airport handles about 20 flights per day. I live on one of the approaches. They come in at around 2,000 feet. Some days I can wave at the passengers. 737's and DC-9's is what I see. Also a few Lear Jets (we have some REAL big money in Canton - Timkin, Hoover, Belden and Diebold), some prop shuttle flights to Detroit and Pittsburg, and that's about it.

Speaking of civil flights ...... the only contrail I PERSONALLY WITNESSED UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL was created by the legendary aircraft ...... Concord. My British Airways 747 was pulled over during taxi to allow Concord to "get in front" of the line at London Heathrow. We were both headed for USA. We took off directly behind Concord, 2 minutes. About 4 hours into my flight across the Atlantic my pilot announced the approach of the same Concord GOING BACK TO LONDON! Blew my mind!!!!!!! He'd been and was going home!!!!! I'm still eating my lunch!!! I'm so glad he was about 4 miles away, can't imagine a mid-air at 2,000mph! The contrail was miles and miles long. Sorry I digressed a little there, fond memories that's all. I've made 11 round trips across the pond, only saw that once.

Nikonman.

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http://web.raex.com/~dav50pj

[This message has been edited by nikonman (edited 08-11-2000).]

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Falcon
The voice of sanity and reality!


87 posts, Aug 2000

posted 08-14-2000 09:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Falcon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK, your observations are based on one day. I don't see how you can rule out civilian traffic. Again what you are seeing is high-level transiting aircraft. The area around O'Hare is the busiest in the world, but not all the aircraft you are seeing have to have come from or be going to there, that much should be obvious.

As for why you don't see it everyday, if you live close to an airport you will sometimes see more aircraft one day than the next due to things such as runway in use, airway departure procedures in use etc.

The high-level stuff, it is always there, but it isn't always contrailing, due to changes in the atmosphere in which contrails are formed. I know from experience that contrails can start and stop within a few miles as the aircraft crosses a weather front or similar change in the airmass.

Finally on the Concorde front, it can't have been the same aircraft on the way back. Concorde takes 3 and a bit hours to cross from Heathrow to New York. Four hours into your flight the Concorde ahead of you would still be on the ground, or possibly just taking-off if they'd had a sharp turn-around. Not surprising that it was leaving a long contrail, it usually cruises in excess of 50,000 feet at Mach 2!

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dieseltrooper
New Member


1 posts, Jul 2000

posted 08-18-2000 10:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dieseltrooper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
On the days we get sprayed in Pueblo,CO, the trails are usually oriented ene-wsw which is the flight path for most chi-lax traffic. does this mean its commercial traffic spraying? I don't know, but the birds I see are white, boeing twin engine models.

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Falcon
The voice of sanity and reality!


87 posts, Aug 2000

posted 08-19-2000 08:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Falcon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
All aircraft at height look white from the ground.

Have you checked a map of your local airway structure?

No one is spraying anything at you from the skies, it's all just simple contrails!

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Thermit
Tech


Houston, TX
2733 posts, Jul 2000

posted 08-19-2000 09:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Thermit   Visit Thermit's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"Simple Contrail?"

U-Turn A

U-Turn B

Curving Trails

Loopy

It doesn't look like these guys are following the "local airway structure"...

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Falcon
The voice of sanity and reality!


87 posts, Aug 2000

posted 08-20-2000 10:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Falcon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Considering this is an aviation related topic, your lack of knowledge of aviation is astounding!

All of the above pictures are things seen everyday, ALL OVER THE WORLD, "U-TURN A / B" could be is either an airliner, a fighter or similar training, it could be air to air tanker "tow-line" making a 180 in his racetrack, an airliner in an en-route hold or even an E-3 AWACS sentry in it's orbit.

"Curving Trails" is an aircraft reaching an airway intersection and turning to join a new airway, that much is obvious from the other trails crossing nearby and the fact he rolled out parallel to the airway centreline, as does the other trail.

Finally "Loopy", an aircraft performs a 360 degree turn, at ATC request or during training and that means he's spraying you with stuff?!

You guys are starting to scare me now.

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Thermit
Tech


Houston, TX
2733 posts, Jul 2000

posted 08-21-2000 09:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Thermit   Visit Thermit's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Houston Grid 7/11

Well, I haven't checked the Jeppesen's yet, but I've never seen any trails like these here in Houston the decade I've been here. My wife hasn't either. I asked my neighbor if he'd ever seen anything like it, he said no. Several others reported this unusual formation. Not normal at all.

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Falcon
The voice of sanity and reality!


87 posts, Aug 2000

posted 08-22-2000 10:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Falcon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Be interesting to find out if two airways cross in that area. Remember also that not all aircraft are confined to using airways, military aircraft regularly cross controlled airspace on direct routes. In fact more and more civilian aircraft are using direct routing for some or most of there journey thanks to the advances in sat-nav systems.

I've seen formations of contrails like that all over the world, there is nothing unusual about it. People haven't seen it before because until somebody plants this stupid chemtrail idea in there head they simply haven't noticed.

NEXT incredible picture please!

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Thermit
Tech


Houston, TX
2733 posts, Jul 2000

posted 08-23-2000 12:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Thermit   Visit Thermit's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wish somebody could explain this...

__________________________________

9/5/00 This trail has now been explained...

[Edited 2 times, lastly by Thermit on 09-05-2000]

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nikonman
Senior Member

Ohio
16 posts, Jul 2000

posted 08-23-2000 06:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for nikonman   Visit nikonman's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Falcon:
[b]OK, your observations are based on one day. I don't see how you can rule out civilian traffic. Again what you are seeing is high-level transiting aircraft. The area around O'Hare is the busiest in the world, but not all the aircraft you are seeing have to have come from or be going to there, that much should be obvious.[E].

I've never seen that much activity in the sky EVER! And never has that been repeated! I choose to use O'Hare as an example because it IS so busy, that's the only airport that could generate so much traffic in my part of the world. We are over 350 miles away from Chicago ........ so where did 60 or more flights originate in about 4 hours? You pointed out that not all flights come from there.

nikonman.


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http://web.raex.com/~dav50pj

[Edited 1 times, lastly by nikonman on 08-23-2000]

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nikonman
Senior Member

Ohio
16 posts, Jul 2000

posted 08-23-2000 06:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for nikonman   Visit nikonman's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thermit,

That's an easy one!

"Death Valley Scenic Tours" flight! hahahahaha

Can't wait to hear what Falcon thinks this is! Probably another contrail? Where the heck did you get that shot?

nikonman.

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http://web.raex.com/~dav50pj

[Edited 2 times, lastly by nikonman on 08-23-2000]

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Swedishoo
Vigilante


North Pinellas County, Florida
280 posts, Aug 2000

posted 08-24-2000 12:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Swedishoo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Holy Petrochemical refration Batman!!

This is an incredible shot Mark. The sun hitting the horizen level shows the surface refraction of the trail. Being that this is a u-turn shot, the chemicals have fallen in toward itself. I gotta steal this photo and put it at Chemtrail and Company!

Did you take this? Or, do you own this picture? If so, you could sell it to a magazine cover or book cover.

Christy

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Falcon
The voice of sanity and reality!


87 posts, Aug 2000

posted 08-24-2000 06:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Falcon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Certainly a very impressive photo. Once again your belief in this Chemtrail nonsense blinkers your perspective. Look carefully at the shot and then tell me which aircraft of the size required for large areas of "aerial spraying" is capable of making such tight radius turns, particularly the 90 right at the bottom of the shot, impossible. Not to mention the fact that it doesn't look like a particularly effective "spray pattern" even taking upper winds into account. I'd love to see your reaction to the Aurora Borealis (Northern Lights), no doubt that too would be attributed to Chemtrails in the atmosphere!

nikonman, 60 flights in 4 hours, that's 15 an hour, hardly extreme is it? Not when you consider it's over the US. Look at the skies anywhere over Europe and you'll see at least that many. It doesn't matter how close you are to any airport, airbase or whatever, you will always see high-level transiting aircraft.

As a pilot with over a decades experience I remain amazed and somewhat disturbed by this theory of yours. I will have to see a specific shot of a "Chemtrailer" actually laying down a trail at a level below contrailing altitudes before I would even consider it a possibility.

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nikonman
Senior Member

Ohio
16 posts, Jul 2000

posted 08-24-2000 07:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for nikonman   Visit nikonman's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Falcon,

You have helped by telling us what that picture is not, but have not told us what it is. Do you know? Your post once again is vague.
I would agree 100% with you that 15 flights an hour is common everyday stuff, but you have to accept from me that when you can stand in your back yard on any evening and not actually see these aircraft for months, then on one day see everything in the sky all at once all around you is unusual, even if weather conditions are somewhat similar, ie, clear skies.
I would love to believe that this is nothing more than plain old contrails coming from plain old jet aircraft, nothing would please me more! All those contrails I have seen in the sky usually disipate very quickly behind any aircraft. I have a hard time with those contrails that do things all by themselves. Nature is very beautiful and complex, but then again, so are people and the world we live in.
I think that all of us here aknowledge contrails, we all know what they are, but not all contrails are born equal. Some are more fantastic than others. What we have to do is consider all the strange things that accompany these "strange" contrails, ie, reports of feeling ill, violent weather afterwards, actual biological sampling from fallout from a "contrail", etc. If we accept your theory 100%, then what is all this stuff we hear? Biological samples ... gee wiz .. where did that come from? !!!!! Give me some facts so I can go on with my life.

nikonman.

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http://web.raex.com/~dav50pj

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Swedishoo
Vigilante


North Pinellas County, Florida
280 posts, Aug 2000

posted 08-24-2000 01:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Swedishoo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Falcon,

Here ya go.

I took Charley's photo from Melbourne Florida of a chemtrail thought to be going under a cumulus cloud. I color enhanced it to see if the trail was infront or behind the cumulus cloud, as per argued at Carnicom's board.

This is very interesting...the top part of the trail is behind the cloud...However, you can see at the bottom of the cumulus, the trail goes into the cloud.

This trail is not below the Fair Weather Cumulus, it is going through it!

Christy

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Thermit
Tech


Houston, TX
2733 posts, Jul 2000

posted 08-24-2000 02:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Thermit   Visit Thermit's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The 'Freak Trail' shot comes from Arizona, you can find a link to original location here.

quote:
Once again your belief in this Chemtrail nonsense blinkers your perspective. Look carefully at the shot and then tell me which aircraft of the size required for large areas of "aerial spraying" is capable of making such tight radius turns, particularly the 90 right at the bottom of the shot, impossible.

Actually, Falcon, you're right it is a matter of perspective, or more specifically foreshortening. The turns look incredibly tight, but it's just a perspective illusion.

Finally... a trail that's not 'been there, done that'

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nsasucks
Chemtrails suck - alot!

Earth
530 posts, Jan 2001

posted 04-13-2001 08:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for nsasucks     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Falcon? Would that be an F-16 pilot handle or plane name...now...gee...where have I heard that before?

"I have never posted under any name, on any board, except Topmoan!"

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