posted 10-25-2000 01:05 AM            

"I for one would like to communicate with others that feel the way I do and not be subjected to this type of harassment."

posted 10-25-2000 01:55 AM            

elvis showin' a chemmie the door !

I agree elvis...there are plenty of restricted boards...cttUSA and carniscam....

Real discussion is here...back patting is there...

LOL !

posted 10-25-2000 03:16 AM            

I thought we were buds ???

Listen, I have been 'barbecued' for lack of a better word for my beliefs, jay has been persecuted for his philosphy,it was most enlightening to see what I read,I rejoice in your speaking out...1234 just for you...

1. Davids a moron

2. goldrush is right in the FACT that debate takes two sides....use your head cy.....

3. Seeker is always right ! LOL !

4.ass*ole/elvis, he could be, I am not sure of him either...

5. do you really feed that bird wendy's chilli ?

Check this cy, I was watching TV this evening , PAX a old diagnosis murder, and seen a persistent contrail , this was when scott baio was on....get it....and it was filmed in your backyard dude......

By all means speak your mind but just because Jay shot your theories to hell don't get nasty !

you hump !

no profanity please !

posted 10-25-2000 08:53 AM              

You seem pretty sore at me since I asked you about Thomas, is there a problem with questioning you about him?

Comment: We do have some things in common, The las ttwo years I have served as Vice chairman and Chairman of my County Republican Party Committee. In Arkansas, that get's you blacklisted, and negatively affects all aspects of your life in this Dem. machine state.
Jay "trying hard to get along" Reynolds

*****************************************
Posted 10-23-2000 09:39 PM

Cy,
I now have time to address your questions.
BTW, skillful dance around my own questions regarding W.Thomas, maybe you'll get around to a
direct answer, or perhaps you are goreing. Also, Thomas didn't coin the phrase chemtrails, it was
Capt. John Grace of the US Air Force Office of Special Investigations, the guy who now goes by the
name of Val Valerian. As one of the premier co-promoters,
Grace knew exactly what he was doing.

1.You haven't explained to any satisfaction yet how chemtrails can form in conditions
that do not allow their formation.

I haven't seen your presentation on these conditions. Those of others I have seen fail in not having
any actual altitude measurements especially, and usually are not accompanied by skew-T data that
is timely or accurate enough spatially to the observation. I would be impressed by a presentation by
a real meteorologist with accurate data, but then again, so would all meteorologists, and it could get
you into a real peer reviewed journal, as real meteorologists do. It won't happen.

2.Why we have never seen such massive displays of voluminous "persistent contrail" filled skies in
the past (at least in my memory). What about your memory?

I never paid attention to them prior to 1997 when the controversy began. All the real professional
contrail researchers I have corresponded with, such as Patrick Minnis, David Starr, and Hermann
Mannstein tell me
that until they started looking, they didn't notice them either, but now they see them in old movies
and photos, always there, just never noticed. For example, this spring I happened to read up on fire
ants, which are nearing my area in their march northwards. When i later noticed a rather tall ant nest
on my property, I was concerned enough to notify the county agent who came and looked.
Turns out they are native ants that build these above ground colonies after rain. Now I see them all
the time after rains, they were always there, but I never noticed. The increase in air traffic is
significant, at 7%/annum worldwide, and some routes much more than others, new airports built and
now my local airport pop 10,000 takes jets where they didn't before, since expanding the runways.

3.You haven't explained possible engine designs that maybe could account for these formations,
(that I have seen on this board, anyway). You have my own detailed opinion regarding high by-pass
jet engines for example....but I haven’t seen yours.

I recall seeing your idea some time ago at C&C. I believe the larger engines and fuel consumed in
more recent engines would create more water vapor, thus more contrails. More efficient burn = more
water vapor produced as well. The water vapor comes from the oxidation(burning of fuel), not from the
compression of air, however.

4. Why do the precise stop and start dashed "contrails" (that I have seen with my own
eyes) occur.. Have you told us yet?

I see these frequently, too, often I try to predict such changes in persistence by observing nearby
cirrus density, it's a game I play as I contrail watch nowadays. certainly you are aware that the
atmosphere is chaotic, not planar in any dimension. Just as natural clouds come and go, start and
end, and have infinite shapes, so do contrails. There is no mystery there. The purported reasons
chemtrail believers give for these changes are quite amusing to me.

5. What about the low-altitude formations that occur in temperature, pressure, and relative humidity
conditions that would make natural formations impossible? Have you explained this yet?

To my knowledge, other than Clifford Carnicom's photogrammetric analysis, no alleged chemtrail
photo has been produced which has a measured altitude. Carnicom's measured well above 30,000 ft.
I believe pressure has little to do with contrail formation. In arctic conditions, contrails form and
persist at ground level, causing airport closures and havoc at stations while loading cargo.

6. Have you explained the multi-color oilslick displays, and how its possible for the opaque ice
crystals found in natural formations to refract light, as a liquid substance would?

I covered this in a previous post on this board. You are incorrect on all points. If your contention is
that putative chemtrails are a hydrocarbon, you will have to find a hydrocarbon which forms
hexagonal crystals.
You will not find one.

7. Have you responded cogently to my own personal comments of witnessing a chemtrail descend
to groundlevel? I don't remember you de-bunking me on this point yet.

One of my first contacts regarding contrails was with Dr. David Starr, in 1997.
http://climate.gsfc.nasa.gov/~starr/
Dr. Starr is one of the world's foremost authorities on cirrus clouds.

He told me at that time that yes, "fall streaks" (virga is rain that evaporates) do form from contrails.
He also told me that in rare cases they can fall to ground level(eventually melting)without
evaporating.
I am sure you are aware that much precipitation begins as frozen rain, ice, sleet, snow, or small hail.

I hope I have answered as much of your questions as time an space permits, but am willing to
amplify any which you feel need more explanation. In fact i expect it, OK?

BTW, looks like chemtrail believers missed an excellent opportunity to find the world's highest
concentration of real scientists who would be knowledgeable on the subject you are interested in.
This conference would have been an exclent place to present your hypothesis, but i bet no-one did
so.
oh well.....
http://www.msc-smc.ec.gc.ca/armp/CP_Conf/CP_Conf.html

posted 10-25-2000 12:10 PM            

Maybe you can't post at the other boards because your last name is logsdon ?

I can't stand whiners....

posted 10-25-2000 06:54 PM            

"It is site to be trashed and called names be some overblown gas bags who do not participate in good discussion, but instead resort to name calling"

All you have to do is look back at the posts to see who is trashing who...mention freedom of speech and alas here comes Cy and Nola sprouting profanity to make their points.

posted 10-26-2000 06:37 PM            

"The American people have a right to know if something harmful is being sprayed over American soil. If it is not harmful , then just say so. But don't tell me that "no-one" is spraying ."

posted 10-26-2000 07:26 PM            

"I'm taking a basic "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" approach here.
Talk to people in a negative, condescending, and demeaning way....and that's the type of response you'll likely get from me, it's that simple... basic human common sense actually, treating others as you would have them treat you. I only attack the attackers.....(take notes Elvis, you might learn something)."

You only attack the attackers...humm seems you should have done your homework before you made that statement. Your post below is in answer to my generic post "banned" of the same day. This was your first post to me in this forum and it set the stage for what followed. Please read this again and tell me who is the attacker?

10/22/00 4:59 pm
cydoniaquest

"My estimate is that at least 4 or 5 of those being held captive in that forum have seen the light and left."
What “light” Duncan...er, I mean Elvis?
You don't seem to be casting any light on any comments that I've see here.
And "captive"?...What the hell does that mean? Last time I checked, people come and go from these boards at their own free will.
What is it you want people to believe and why does it matter to you what people choose to believe in a free country anyway? Would you stop posting on a chemtrail board if everyone says "Oh Elvis is right! We've seen the light..the government really isn't spraying us and they only have our best interest at heart"! Would your mission be accomplished at that point? What is your mission and purpose anyway? Are you interested in truth, or just trying to convince people that your narrow view of the world is the correct one?
Have you considered that you might be wrong in your assumptions?....and if not, then doesn't that point to the type of individual who is challenged by larger truths, who doesn't believe his own lying eyes?
Aren't you, Elvis, the exact type of individual that you claim to have a problem with, one who is so set in his own beliefs he won't hear any other possibilities?
You better check yourself man...your hypocrisy is showing and it's getting
embarrassing......
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000071.html

posted 10-26-2000 10:48 PM            

Jay mentioned the dry bias in the soundings and the fact that relative humidity with respect to water requires lower dewpoints than relative humidity with respect to ice expecially below -40C. In other words, ice will form at higher dewpoint temperatures than liquid water. It just takes something to get the ice started. That is why you get persistent contrails in otherwise clear air. The aircraft exhaust with its water vapor and soot and other particles provides that something to get the ice crystals to start forming. Once they form, the excess water vapor is attracted to the "seed" crystals like hogs to a trough full of corn. I copied part of the sounding over Birmingham that was posted earler:
30 329 08956 -32.7 -38.7 55 6.0 -33.4 267 29 330.5 330.5 292.3 332.0 0.41
31 313 09305 -35.1 -42.1 49 7.0 -35.8 272 30 331.9 331.9 292.5 333.0 0.30
32 300 09600 -37.3 -41.6 64 4.3 -37.7 275 31 332.8 332.9 292.8 334.1 0.33
33 264 10468 -44.9 -50.9 51 6.0 -45.2 267 32 334.1 334.1 293.0 334.6 0.13
34 250 10830 -47.9 -52.9 56 5.0 -48.1 265 33 334.9 334.9 293.2 335.3 0.11
35 220 11656 -55.1 -58.6 65 3.5 -55.2 268 44 336.2 336.2 293.4 336.5 0.06
36 200 12260 -57.1 -63.1 46 6.0 -57.2 270 54 342.3 342.3 294.9 342.5 0.04

posted 10-26-2000 11:30 PM            

quote:

---

The layers where the difference is less than 5 deg is definitely supersaturated with respect to ice and will form persistent contrails while the layers with the 5 to 7 deg differences may form persistent contrails but more likely will produce short-lived contrails.

---

Thanks for the information.

How applicable are these figures to different altitudes?

quote:

---

In Surface-Based Observations of Contrail Occurrence Over the U.S., April 1993-April 1994: Minnis, Ayers and Weaver

According to Hanson and Hanson (1995), contrail formation at 10.5 km or near 250mb requires temperatures lower than 226 K (-47C) for RH less than 100 percent.

---

I was wondering if you could share the analogous figures for persistent contrails.

Also, are there formulas that can be used to predict contrail formation and persistence, that you can provide?

Thermit

posted 10-26-2000 11:31 PM            

"I must disagree with Elvis, that contrails and aircraft exhaust, are significantly detrimental to our atmosphere. But who knows?"

I am only echoing NASA and others who are making these claims. Take a minute to read "Oil spills in the sky" and you will see where I am coming from.
http://www.enn.com/enn-features-archive/1997/12/120997/1209fea_20122.asp