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  A Curious Contrail (Page 1)

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Topic:   A Curious Contrail

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Thermit
Tech


Houston, TX
2733 posts, Jul 2000

posted 10-22-2000 06:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Thermit   Visit Thermit's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Even Astronomers wonder about some of the unusual trails that are so frequently seen in the skies today.

quote:

What's odd about this is that there were just two bits of the trail as in the first picture for at least 4 minutes before the trail started again and continued up and over. I checked, there were no scheduled launches from Vandenburg. This was a little south from Vandenburg anyway. Anybody got any suggestions of what left this contrail?

http://www.astrophys-assist.com/wilobs/pod00202.htm


[Edited 2 times, lastly by Thermit on 10-22-2000]

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cydoniaquest
nobody

nowhere
803 posts, Aug 2000

posted 10-22-2000 07:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cydoniaquest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
DELETED BY THE ARTIST FORMALLY KNOWN AS CYDONIAQUEST

[Edited 1 times, lastly by cydoniaquest on 01-13-2001]

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JayReynolds
unregistered


posted 10-22-2000 07:53 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This could be two seperate contrails from two separate planes, and both intermittent/persistent. I've seen some photos of contrails which appear to be sharp 90 degree turns, but which I believe were two separate planes intersecting, but which contrails only persisted at the intersection.

So many photos are taken after the fact that one just can't tell much in retrospect sometimes.

In 1997, while visiting in Arizona, I did witness a pulsing type contrail from an aircraft far too high to see, but which was like smoke rings, not the wake vortex effect, but clearly distinct rings. It was unlike any I've seen since, both online and in person.

209.206.156.217 IP: 209.206.156.217

Swedishoo
Vigilante


North Pinellas County, Florida
280 posts, Aug 2000

posted 10-22-2000 09:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Swedishoo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
captured this myself from Dundee May 29, 2000 22:44

Christy

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cydoniaquest
nobody

nowhere
803 posts, Aug 2000

posted 10-22-2000 09:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cydoniaquest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
DELETED BY THE ARTIST FORMALLY KNOWN AS CYDONIAQUEST

[Edited 1 times, lastly by cydoniaquest on 01-13-2001]

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elvis lives
Senior Member

Pismo Beach, California
143 posts, Sep 2000

posted 10-22-2000 09:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for elvis lives     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
All American Chemtrails...
http://www.1000pictures.com/aircraft/aerobatic/RedArrows.jpg




[Edited 1 times, lastly by elvis lives on 10-22-2000]

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Thermit
Tech


Houston, TX
2733 posts, Jul 2000

posted 10-22-2000 10:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Thermit   Visit Thermit's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Holy Smokes !!

I think Elvis has cracked the case on this one, notice how the lead plane is emitting no trail...

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cydoniaquest
nobody

nowhere
803 posts, Aug 2000

posted 10-22-2000 10:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cydoniaquest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
DELETED BY THE ARTIST FORMALLY KNOWN AS CYDONIAQUEST

[Edited 1 times, lastly by cydoniaquest on 01-13-2001]

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Sore Throat
Senior Member

x
736 posts, Sep 2000

posted 10-22-2000 10:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sore Throat     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Not only that, but he "predicts" that he had observed this event on July 4th, 2010.

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goldrush
Senior Member

No, Calif. USA
109 posts, Sep 2000

posted 10-22-2000 11:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for goldrush     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thermit, your contrail pic does appear to be a missile, perhaps failing. There is a huge MOA that goes offshore, and, dare to say, there are sea launched missiles tested from time to time, some published, most not. As for Christy's picture, ..that is a real headscratcher! Something spinning through the air does make such rings, but for that distance and size, I do not know. Perhaps getting a set of World Aeronautical Charts and a set of Sectional charts for the areas of interest might be helpful in determining flight corridors and Military Operational Areas along with Restricted Areas. Great shot of the Red Arrows, too! The lead plane does not generate smoke due to it obscuring the view of the others in formation. Recently they also abandoned the use of colored trails as well. These airshow performances when using white smoke, do show how the "black line" effect can be duplicated and show how the color of a white trail can appear darker (from blue/grey to brown) depending upon the angle it is viewed from. I have some pictures of planes doing snap-rolls with wingtip smoke generators that result in wonderfully loopy, circle, trails.

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theseeker
One moon circles

Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
3403 posts, Jul 2000

posted 10-22-2000 11:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for theseeker   Visit theseeker's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have a shotgun too cy...

Look very close all you "nozzel" spray-proponents.....

Are you looking....good....now see how the smoke comes right out of the nozzel...right at the plane...

Now that you see this and see it clearly show me one contrail/chemtrail photo that exhibits this same 'at the plane' dispursement.....

No clifford carnicom retouches please !

Ha ! click..click....

------------------
T/S

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cydoniaquest
nobody

nowhere
803 posts, Aug 2000

posted 10-23-2000 02:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cydoniaquest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
DELETED BY THE ARTIST FORMALLY KNOWN AS CYDONIAQUEST

[Edited 1 times, lastly by cydoniaquest on 01-13-2001]

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theseeker
One moon circles

Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
3403 posts, Jul 2000

posted 10-23-2000 03:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for theseeker   Visit theseeker's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh boy,

I consider some of those commercial flights and most definately non-sequetor...

One of them is retouched...

Some of them reflect an aircraft in distress ?

Pulling up...maybe ?

I'm glad someone caught the gravity of that question.....

It is huge !

I do question Carnicom and Thomas' integrity.

out

------------------
T/S

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cydoniaquest
nobody

nowhere
803 posts, Aug 2000

posted 10-23-2000 03:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cydoniaquest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
DELETED BY THE ARTIST FORMALLY KNOWN AS CYDONIAQUEST

[Edited 1 times, lastly by cydoniaquest on 01-13-2001]

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JayReynolds
unregistered


posted 10-23-2000 10:07 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Christy,
The circular contrail picture is listed at dundee as being taken in 1993.

Carnicom states "This plane, to the best of my ability, is currently being identified
as a Boeing 757."
" Assuming this is the case, the altitude of this aircraft during spray conditions has been calculated photogrammetrically at approximately 40,000 ft. above mean sea level. This is the third altitude computation which has been completed, and the results range from 39,000ft to 45,000 ft above MSL."
"The majority of aircraft identified with telephotos under spray conditions (Santa Fe NM) thus far appear to be of the Boeing 757 class, but this assessment is subject to revision if additional information is provided or becomes available"
"These photos show once again emissions which extend across the entire wingspan, and consequently they can not emanate solely from the engines of the aircraft, which in this case are rear mounted (tentatively identified as a MD80, a derivative of the originally identified McDonnell Douglas DC9; further identification assistance has been provided by a pilot of 10000 hrs military, civilian, and commercial time)."
"

It is interesting to note that by the summer of 1999,over one year ago, I notified Carnicom of theusefulness of Flight Explorer http://www.avweb.com/sponsors/fe/review.html
to identify commercial flights. He and Charles Warren were the first to be notified
of this software, which was available FREE for a two-week trial. They rejected use of it at that time, because they said it did not track MILITARY flights. To date, carnicom has not mentioned use of this software, though I believe that under oath, he would be forced to testify to using it and identifying planes which conform to his "chemtrail" definition as normal commercial flights.

***************************************
I, Jay Reynolds, herein challenge Clifford Carnicom to confirm or deny if he has in fact made use of fight explorer software and if so, to disclose the results of such usage.
*****************************************

Additionally, a photo similar in appearance to the AWACS loops seen at the dundee site also appears at the carnicom site. http://www.carnicom.com/gulf.jpg
I note that the loops over Saudi Arabia appear remarkably similar to the spiral-loops from dundee. I also note that they are persistent mostly in the vicinity of the existing clouds,and dissipated in the clearer air of the northeast loop quadrants in each loop on the northern set and southeast quadrants on the southernmost set, which might be expected in an area of higher moisture able to allow such persistence.

209.142.143.150 IP: 209.142.143.150

Thermit
Tech


Houston, TX
2733 posts, Jul 2000

posted 10-23-2000 10:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Thermit   Visit Thermit's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:

One of them is retouched...

This is a serious charge, Seeker, if you think one of the photos is altered, please identify the picture and what about it you believe has been altered and why you believe so. I will analyze the picture, if evidence of editing or retouching is found, you can be sure that I will post my findings. Here's a chance to substantiate your claims by an expert image analyst, otherwise it would be honorable to retract your claim.

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LTC8K6
35 HOTEL / MOLE / LAME MORON

Tar Heel State
267 posts, Oct 2000

posted 10-23-2000 10:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LTC8K6     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry to butt in, but I said #6 was retouched a long time ago on Crazycom's board. I don't know if that's the one Seeker is referring to, however. It would be difficult to say without the negative, but I'd pick the "spray turned on and off" as my retouched candidate once again. I also said long ago that Cliff's Sedona pics are common tree frog foam egg nests, but everyone wants to think they are a NWO plot. Oh, well.

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theseeker
One moon circles

Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
3403 posts, Jul 2000

posted 10-23-2000 01:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for theseeker   Visit theseeker's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Am pressed for time , but I agree with ltc about 6 , and 5 looks suspect too,hell I don't think any of them are straight up !

cy, it is not my place to prove of disprove, as I said carnicom's pictures don't count because his credibility is suspect....

Find a picture with the trail coming directly from the craft,If carnicom is the only one that has these type pictures that should tell you something...shouldn't it !

Thermit I will retract nothing, now if clifford would send me the negatives of all those pictures...after examination, if they are genuine, I would retract....but I won't retract out of respect, because I have none for the man.....

LTC, butt in any time...I remember the "tree frog" hoax of cliffie......

make it a good aday everyone !

------------------
T/S

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JayReynolds
unregistered


posted 10-23-2000 09:51 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I feel that God's own air is varied enough to account for almost any variations of contrails, nothing really needs to be "touched". We see this in all natural clouds as a wonder of nature's beauty, why consider it sinister in contrails?

I do have one other comment. Though I have seen contrails start an stop behind the plane, many of the most abrupt "starting-stopping" photos look like aging contrails long after the plane has passed.

In other words, the contrail may have been continuous when created, but as it decayed, some sections persisted, and some disappeared altogether.

Such a situation could not be used as evidence of "shutting off pumps, valves closing, etc., because the original trail would be continuous.

Often times failure of the photographer to catch in-progress shots as well as later images leaves great gaps in possible interpretation.

Just a thought.

209.142.143.137 IP: 209.142.143.137

theseeker
One moon circles

Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
3403 posts, Jul 2000

posted 10-23-2000 10:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for theseeker   Visit theseeker's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thermit,

Number 5 looks fake mainly because the 'grainy' look seems to be background and the trail and the really white commercial plane show no signs of graininess....hmmmm...

Any possibility all of these megasprayers are planes in holding patterns dumping fuel...

Sounds more logical to me than the NWO reptilians spraying black mold.....

------------------
T/S

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JayReynolds
unregistered


posted 10-24-2000 08:24 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://hyperion.gsfc.nasa.gov/AEAP/gierenspos.html
A Numerical Study of Aircraft Wake Induced Ice Cloud Formation


Klaus Gierens and Johan Stroms
DLR, Institut Physik Atmosph
D-82234 Oberpfaffenhofen, Germany
Department of Meteorology, Stockholm University,
S-10691 Stockholm, Sweden

Aircraft condensation trails are usually thought to form mainly from condensation of ambient water
vapor onto soot and other aerosol particles that originate from the fuel combustion in the jet engines
(e.g. K\"archer et al.1996). However, aircraft are also able to produce large concentrations of ice
crystals without involving exhaust particles. An example of such a phenomenon, termed APIP
(Aircraft Produced Ice Particles; see e.g. Rangno and Hobbs, 1983; Sassen, 1991; Foster and
Hallett, 1993) occurs when an aircraft moves through a super-cooled cloud. The mechanisms
thought to be responsible are splintering on leading surfaces and adiabatic cooling near the aircraft
and propeller tips.

It is interesting to note that the mere disturbance of the air by the aircraft is able to form cloud
particles. Aerodynamic cloud formation might not be restricted to temperatures warmer than
-30~\Celsius, for which the APIP phenomenon has been studied so far. In the temperature range
between -30 and -60~\Celsius\ which corresponds to the crusing altitudes of commercial airtraffic,
the most important ice nucleation process seems to be freezing of haze droplets at relative humidities
near water saturation (i.e. above ice saturation). Thus, is it possible that the turbulence alone from an
aircraft flying through a metastable atmosphere, with reference to humidity, can form an APIP trail?
The magnitude of the vertical air motion caused by the trailing vortices behind a big airliner can be on
the order of meters per second, which results in very strong turbulence (evident to anyone who have
been flying close behind an other aircraft). If an airparcel in the wake of the aircraft is lifted to the
point where the humidity is increased enough for homogeneous freezing to occur, a cloud would
rapidly form.

To test the hypothesis: that it is possible for an aircraft to form a contrail by the aerodynamic effects
from the aircraft alone, we have performed numerical simulations of ice cloud formation in the wake
of an aircraft flying at cruise altitude. The engine exhaust has been excluded from the simulations in
order to study cloud formation due to aerodynamic effects. The ice is formed via homogeneous
freezing nucleation of ambient haze droplets in the upwelling limbs of the vortex pair behind the
aircraft. Properties of wake ice clouds are compared with properties of contrails obtained with in situ
measurements and recent simulations. In particular, we find that aerodynamically induced ice clouds
are similar in microphysical and radiative respects to contrails that are formed from the nucleation of
exhaust particles. The results show that significant fractions of contrails as young as 2 to 5 minutes
may originate from aerodynamic effects and not only from nucleation of the exhaust particles.

209.142.143.52 IP: 209.142.143.52

Falcon
The voice of sanity and reality!


87 posts, Aug 2000

posted 10-24-2000 05:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Falcon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK contrails, some St Elmo's fire, the 1970's Red Arrows (flying Foland Gnat aircraft). The first set of pictures from Thermit look like an airliner in turn over a VOR or similar. Swedishoos picture shows the type of trail associated with a transiting E3 prior to establishing in it's opertional "lobe". NEXT!.

Maybe you guys should take up train spotting at least trains exist!

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cydoniaquest
nobody

nowhere
803 posts, Aug 2000

posted 10-24-2000 05:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cydoniaquest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
DELETED BY THE ARTIST FORMALLY KNOWN AS CYDONIAQUEST

[Edited 1 times, lastly by cydoniaquest on 01-13-2001]

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elvis lives
Senior Member

Pismo Beach, California
143 posts, Sep 2000

posted 10-24-2000 06:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for elvis lives     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
cydoniaquest...your question to Falcon

"Hey, I notice that you didn't respond to my remarks regarding aircraft in fomation flight, and the FAR I cite that expressly prohibits this activity in commercial aircraft (which you seemed unaware of)."

I would love to see that PHOTO you have of those commercial airplanes flying in formation.

roflmao.....

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cydoniaquest
nobody

nowhere
803 posts, Aug 2000

posted 10-24-2000 06:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cydoniaquest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
DELETED BY THE ARTIST FORMALLY KNOWN AS CYDONIAQUEST

[Edited 1 times, lastly by cydoniaquest on 01-13-2001]

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