posted 11-05-2000 10:36 PM            

"Sagan: Earth's ozone layer not recovering as fast as predicted" -Deborah www.escribe.com/science/carlsagan/m13538.html

"Antarctic Ozone Hole at Record Size" http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/space/20000911/sc/antarctic_ozone_hole_at_record_size_1. html

"Ozone hole largest yet"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_916000/916037.stm
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Basic chemistry of ozone depletion www.nas.nasa.gov/Services/Education/Resources/TeacherWork/Ozone/Ozone_chem.html

"one molecule of chlorine can degrade over 100,000 molecules of ozone before it is removed from the stratosphere or becomes part of an inactive compound"

Chemical reactions of the elements - Barium www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Ba/chem.html

"Reaction of barium with the halogens
I expect barium is very reactive towards the halogens, but I've not yet found explicit references to that effect. So, it is epxected that chlorine, Cl2 bromine, Br2, or iodine, I2, would burn to form the dihalides barium(II) chloride, BaCl2, barium(II) bromide, BaBr2, and barium(II) iodide, BaI2 respectively. The reactions with bromine and with iodine wolud probably require heat."

Ba(s) + Cl2(g) -> BaCl2(s)

Ba(s) + Br2(g) -> BaBr2(s)

Ba(s) + I2(g) -> BaI2(s)

"Metallic Ba and Ba/Al-alloys are mainly used as scavengers to remove the last traces of unwanted gases from vacuum tubes."

http://media.payson.tulane.edu:8083/html/env/enven/vol315.htm

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Assuming the the situation was severe enough to require such desperate measures, would anyone care to speculate as to what would be a better chemistry to cleanse the atmosphere of ozone depleting compounds? Please consider abundance, availability, and cost.

This is, of course, completely hypothetical.

The only acknowledged FACT is the accelerating depletion of our ozone layer and the consequences for life on earth.

How bad would it have to get before TPTB would be forced to try something?

"Arctic ozone damage 'likely by 2020'" http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_990000/990391.stm

"Radiation Alert Under Ozone Hole in Southern Chile" (skin burns in seven minutes) http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20001009/wl/environment_chile_dc_1.html
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By the way, did you know that barium carbonate is used as a rat poison?

Heavy Metal Toxicity - Barium (Check out the "ChemTrails" at this web site) http://website.lineone.net/~alexaras/webbarium.html

**BARIUM CARBONATE** MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET

http://chem-courses.ucsd.edu/CoursePages/Uglabs/MSDS/barium.carbonate.-fisher.html

posted 11-05-2000 11:02 PM            

From NASA :
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast02oct_1.htm?list127675

"It takes a long time for the CFCs to get up into the stratosphere in the first place, so it's going to take a long time for them to come back out," McPeters said.

CFCs released at the ground diffuse upward through the lowest layer of the atmosphere, called the troposphere. The vertical air currents of tropospheric weather help push CFCs up to the next layer, the stratosphere. Once there, CFCs rise more slowly because stratospheric air has less vertical air movement.

In fact, it can take a CFC molecule about 2 years after being released at the ground to make it to the stratosphere where the ozone is. And it can take decades for it to be converted by sunlight into a form that is harmful to ozone, according to Dr. Charles Jackman, an atmospheric modeler at GSFC.

Once a CFC molecule is converted to its destructive form, it can linger in the stratosphere for a few years before it drifts back down into the troposphere in the form of hydrogen chloride (HCl) and is washed out of the atmosphere by rain, Jackman said.

In 1994, NOAA scientists first measured a decrease in the amount of CFCs in the lowest layer of the atmosphere. Since these CFCs would eventually work their way up to the stratosphere -- where the ozone is -- this finding gave hope that CFC concentrations in the stratosphere would also soon begin to decline.

"It'll be a number of years before you start to see real reductions in the CFCs in the stratosphere," McPeters said.

Model calculations suggest that ozone recovery to pre-1980 levels could take 20 to 40 years, he explained. "So it's not something where you'd expect to see a big change this year."

posted 11-05-2000 11:10 PM            

But with a grand total of two college chemistry courses, I would certainly not speculate about the effect of barium on chlorine or whether removing chlorine by turning it into Barium Chloride or Barium Chlorate ar anything else would be feasible.

If you wanted to determine how well barium reacts with chlorine, I guess all you'd have to do is to count the electrons in the outer shells and see how easy either an ionic or a covalent bond would be to form. Again, I'm certainly no chemist.

But the bottom line is your excellent quote:

"The only acknowledged FACT is the accelerating depletion of our ozone layer and the consequences for life on earth."

Whether or not you believe in contrails-as-chemtrails, ozone depletion is a concern that most of us can get behind.

posted 11-05-2000 11:31 PM            

Couldn't have anything to do with the southern hemisphere (pole) facing away from the sun....could it !!!!!!

you guys really crack me up....

Do I need to post the pic again....

geez louise

posted 11-06-2000 12:12 AM            

Since you're so "cracked up" you just don't seem to get it.

"one molecule of chlorine can degrade over 100,000 molecules of ozone before it is removed from the stratosphere or becomes part of an inactive compound"

Also, the point about movement from the lower to the upper atmosphere would indicate that a remediation effort is not that implausible.

Whatever data that you have fails to acknowledge the FACT that the ozone depletion problem, in BOTH hemispheres, continues to worsen.

posted 11-06-2000 12:29 AM            

Read this _________!

In fact, it can take a CFC molecule about 2 years after being released at the ground to make it to the stratosphere where the ozone is. And it can take decades for it to be converted by sunlight into a form that is harmful to ozone, according to Dr. Charles Jackman, an atmospheric modeler at GSFC.

In your next statement throat :

>Also, the point about movement from the lower to the upper atmosphere would indicate that a remediation effort is not that implausible.<

I guess were in agreement there, materials released at an altitude would go up and float around for a while making 'spraying' moot....right...throat....

>Whatever data that you have fails to acknowledge the FACT that the ozone depletion problem, in BOTH hemispheres, continues to worsen.<

Well maybe so but It ain't my car's fault pal, maybe this is part of the planet's evolution...and there's not a damn thing we can do about it >>>>>

posted 11-06-2000 07:59 AM            

As I mentioned earlier, I have little expertise in chemistry; I believe the best possible way to lose credibility is to pontificate about things for which I have little or no understanding.

To the best of my knowledge, you are correct in your assertion that CFCs are being used less and less, which leads me to GUESS that either (1) the correlation between CFCs and the ozone layer depletion is not as strong as previously believed, or (2) that the time-sequence between changes (positive or negative) of CFC injection into the atmosphere is much more long-term. If the former is the case, the discussion of CFC (and, in particular, chlorine) is less relevant than we would believe. If the latter obtains, then we will have to wait until we can determine the time-lag before really knowing what is going on vis-a-vis the CFC/ozone hole depletion activities.

Two points do come to mind, however. First, if there is a positive and short-term correlation between CFCs in the atmosphere, it would seem to me that any putative spraying for this purpose would be going on in the polar regions, not over tropical or temperate latitudes as have been suggested by the chemtrail-proponents.

Second, you suggested a hypothesis that the change in size of the ozone-layer hole is correlated to the Southern Hemisphere facing away from the Sun. Although that statement is true on the surface, it is not relevant to the discussion. While it is true that the ozone-layer hole increases when the Southern Hemisphere is tilted away from the Sun, you must also remember that the Northern Hemisphere is tilted just as far from the sun during our winter, and it is the year-by-year increase in the size of the winter hole that concerns researchers, not the annual cycle of increase.

Regards,

Duncan Kunz / duncan.kunz@prodigy.net

posted 11-06-2000 08:34 AM              

Neither his previous speculation, nor his current speculation had, has, or ever will have factual basis.

But it does keep the collective hive busy, doesn't it?

Witness- my thread entitled "Desperately seeking barium, below.

See, folks, whenever things get slow, and momentum drops within the hive, the (mis) leaders must come up with yet another new
"revelation", much like sightings of the virgin mary, which stimulate new interest, and prolong any real fact findings.

If barium is being released, simply test air, water, or soil and prove it. Otherwise, what's the use of endless speculation?

I hereby predict that no abnormal levels of barium will ever be found to have ben released in the atmosphere in furtherance of "ozone remediation", or any other reason.

It's another hoax, folks, you've been had, again.

Sad, that.

posted 11-06-2000 01:22 PM              

I predict that no one will ever make an actual analytical chemical test of air, which is repeatable, showing abnormal amounts of barium in our atmosphere.

OK, somebody prove me wrong, shut me up good.

Make the test, sore throat, shouldn't take but a week or so.

I'm waiting.

posted 11-06-2000 02:25 PM            

As ground zero of a global ecological catastrophe, Punta Arenas is becoming famous, or infamous, as the city that has squatted directly under the gaping hole in the earth's ozone layer. What's happening down here on the edge of nowhere is an uncontrolled science experiment -- exposing human beings to long-term increased doses of potentially deadly ultraviolet radiation in their natural habitat.
and death. Up until now the rest of the world has watched from afar, complacent in the conviction that it has largely addressed the problem. But people better pay close

It may take years before the results are in, before we know the full toll in vision problems and skin cancers, illness attention to what happens down here, because scientists fear that -- in the future -- regions farther from the poles could face a thinning of the ozone layer next.

...more
www.salon.com/health/feature/2000/11/03/ozone/index.html
--------------------------------------------

Can anyone actually imagine the Rooster shutting up?

posted 11-06-2000 03:35 PM            

If the depletion of the ozone layers was considered severe enough to warrant remediation efforts, would there be a better material than barium (considering cost, availability and chemistry) to conduct such an operation?

Simple question.

Where are all those self-professed "experts"?

posted 11-06-2000 10:43 PM            

Skin "sun" burns in 7 minutes of exposure. Red alerts when this occurs as fast as five minutes.

Would the American public accept such a "life style"?

Would they be clammoring for some form of "government action" as they do IN ANY CRISIS?

You bet!

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that it is reasonable to consider such a scenario.

Once again all you experts out there...what would be a better chemistry to scavenge the atmosphere of ozone depleting compounds?

Your failure to address this issue in a serious matter speaks volumes.

It certainly isn't because it's not a relevant problem, nor has atmospheric modification been considered for far less pressing issues.

This silence is one of impotence.

posted 11-06-2000 10:47 PM              

We have stopped manufacturing CFCs, soon it will no longer be available evn as recycled, so any purported effects will end. Any scientist that studies ozone will tell you volcanoes will still perturb ozone after eruptions, also, what you gonna do about that?

After austral spring, the vortex breaks up and ozone levels in the uninhabited antarctic return to normal.

Here's the real kicker, throat, guess what living "under the hole in the sky" is like?

It's just like living at the equator, throatee, no more UV than that.

Why, you say- but all these articles have been saying that people in Punta Arenas are roasting like a Thankgiving turkey, what about that?

Read it and weep(especially the last paragraph): http://users.skynet.be/2seb/chile/background.html

See Throatee, our creator God designed his earth with proper feedback, that is to say, earth is "in the balance"(pardon the goreism).

Yes, it just so happens that even with a lower ozone level at Punta Arenas, it's latitude that makes the REAL difference in UV, because of the solar zenith angle changes with latitude.

That's why the Imperial College of London can say that even with a 45% reduction in ozone levels, Punta Arenas(55S) receives only the same UV levels as Buenos Aires, Argentina(35S).

The facts are, dear Toadee, that between the poles and the equator UV

posted 11-06-2000 11:04 PM            

CFC production has not abated around the world, and there are limited means to deal with the tons that are presently in use, and leaking into the atmosphere.

Both the Rooster and seeker conveniently overlook the RESIDENCE times of these ozone depleting CATALYSTS (i.e., NOT consumed by the reaction they promote).

Yes it's quite interesting the position they take on this matter.

posted 11-06-2000 11:36 PM            

How about some examples....

You sound alot like a green party supporter...you know there are reasons why you guys are only 3 to 5 % of the vote...

posted 11-07-2000 12:59 AM            

If Christy did her part in florida, bush wins easily...

AND not to Ism...but a landslide victory is what I feel....

Personally I swayed two votes,in exchange for a democratic vote for sheriff...he's a good guy anyway....

Seeker's prediction on the election :

Get out to vote !

posted 11-07-2000 04:08 AM            

Wednesday November 1 6:16 PM ET
Climate Change Poses New Challenges for EU-Report

By Patricia Reaney

LONDON (Reuters) - Northern Europe and Britain can expect more flooding and torrential rains in the years to come but southern Europe will bear the brunt of the impact of global warming with water shortages, forest fires and desertification.

As many parts of Europe were still recovering from recent mudslides, floods and heavy rains, scientists predicted on Wednesday that it is just the start of extreme weather changes that will intensify in the future.

In the first climate impact assessment report for the European Union (EU), scientists said that summers will become drier in southern Europe and winters will be wetter in the north.

Hot summers will double in frequency by 2020 and increase five-fold in southern Spain, while cold winters will be half as frequent in 20 years and non-existent by 2080.

The report said annual temperatures will rise at a rate of 0.1-0.4 degree Centigrade each decade and aggravate current environmental problems.

``The hand of climate change will tend to expand the current changes in Europe,'' Martin Parry, the editor of the report, told a news conference.

``There will be a south-to-north shift of climatic resources (temperature, water and sunshine) across Europe,'' the professor at the University of East Anglia in England added.

Climate Change Is Happening Now

The negative impact of climate change will be felt most in rural areas of southern and eastern Europe which will warm at twice the rate of northern Europe, according to the report.

Increased temperatures in the south will cause water shortages, heatwaves, droughts, erosion and air pollution in cities. Soaring temperatures could make southern European beaches too hot for tourists.

In the north, alpine glaciers will retreat and could disappear by the end of the 21st century.

Salmon and sturgeon may no longer be able to survive at the edges of their current range in Europe and rising sea levels could lead to the extinction of some species.

The report, which was written by 30 scientists and funded by the EU, is Europe's input to the United Nations (news - web sites)-sponsored Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) that is due to be published next summer.

Parry said the report's release, two weeks before a major conference on climate change in the Netherlands to reduce greenhouse gases along the lines of the Kyoto Protocol and in the wake of flooding in many parts of Europe, is timely.

The Kyoto Protocol which was signed in 1997 legally obliges Western nations to cut emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2) to 5.2 percent below 1990 levels between 2008 and 2012.

Adaptation And Mitigation

Along with its predictions, the report offered recommendations. It said reducing greenhouse gas emissions and altering activities to avoid or minimize the consequences of climate change would be the best approach.

``There should be two strings to the bow -- mitigation and adaptation,'' said Parry.

But he added that mitigation alone is not enough because the Kyoto agreement will only reduce the rise of 1-2 degrees C in temperature by 2050 by around 0.06 degrees C.

The report also called for revisions in EU policies in agriculture, fisheries and regional development to take account of climate change.

posted 11-07-2000 09:20 AM              

Oh, really? http://www.unep.org/ozone/thm98/sld003.htm

Throad: "ASk the people living in Puenta Arenas if they think the "earth is in balance". ASk them if they have every experienced such an environment extreme ever before in their life."

From the portion of the salon article you left out:

"Even Dr. Honeyman, whom everyone appears to regard as an expert on the subject, says that more UVB radiation falls on sunny Santiago, the country's capital and most populated city."

So, where are the apocalyptic reports from Santiago?

A challenge for throatee:

I'm sure that throat will never provide us with actual UV-B data from Punta Arenas during the worst day there, and the UV-B levels found at his home town of SanFranciso, for comparison. Not speculation, hype, or german sunscreeen advertisements, show us the figures and I'll shut up.

I eagerly await this data, my dear Throatee.

Stll waiting for your actual barium analysis, toadee. Remember, this must be from a REAL laboratory, and be confirmable, not that William Thomas skysample stuff never yet released now for over 1-1/2 years.

Jay Reynolds

What does the UV index mean?: http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/stratosphere/uv_index/gif_files/min2brn.gif

How many days did UV index in Swedishoo's area equal/exceed that of Punta Arenas? http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/stratosphere/uv_index/gif_files/tpa_98.gif

Graphs of annual UV index for selected US cities, 1996-1998: http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/stratosphere/uv_index/uv_annual.html