posted 11-24-2000 07:27 PM            

How's this for an idea.

First, we change the name of this site to Global Pollution Central.

Second, we get rid of all the contrail pictures....and load up with thousands of photos detailing industrial air and water pollution.

Third, we focus on the tenfold increase in asthma and upper respiratory disease over the last 10 years...and we focus on the massive pollution of our rivers, lakes, and oceans...
then we send an email petition to the EPA demanding action.

There are a lot of people who are totally fed up with the poisoning of the earth, but want nothing to do with the ‘chemtrail’ hoax. My guess is a revised forum focusing on air and water pollution would put carnicom.com to shame as it relates to activity and substance matter. Besides, you really haven’t got a lot to lose based on the current activity at Chemtrail Central. GO FOR IT.....

This is just a sample of what is out there.

Scientists linking radial tires to asthma......
By Kansas City Star

Researchers say tires, principally radials, spew billions of particles into the atmosphere every day. That is alarming, they say, because latex, the key ingredient of rubber, can trigger severe, even fatal, allergic reactions and aggravate allergic reactions to other substances.

Many of these airborne particles are so small they can be inhaled deeply into lungs. That makes them a potential threat to people susceptible to asthma. It’s a concern, because asthma is an epidemic, and it’s getting worse.

The particles were first identified as bits of tires by a group of researchers at the Allergy Respiratory Institute of Colorado in Denver. “This stuff gets up there from the roads, There’s literally tons of it in the air,” said P. Brock Williams, a molecular biologist who led the Denver team and now works at IBT Reference Laboratory in Lenexa.

posted 11-25-2000 03:03 AM            

Tis' is kind that is strange, you spout success early on, and then your espouse' green theology...curious.....been readin' mark sky.....sorry....

Seeker on golf,

when you have 440 yard dog leg right, do you lay up and take a long iron or do you grip it and rip it and play your fade ?????

Just curious ?

posted 11-27-2000 12:08 AM            

>>There are a lot of people who are totally fed up with the poisoning of the earth, but want nothing to do with the "chemtrail" hoax.<<

I agree - there ARE a lot of people fed up with the pollution situation, at ALL levels. What I'm finding, however, is that it's futile to express genuine concern about this, as, even when one's continuous, subjective observation is backed up by hard research on the matter, one is assumed to be supporting a "Green Agenda."

posted 11-27-2000 01:02 AM            

You know...I don't totally disagree with Elvis. When I first began noticing chemtrails, I said to myself that the only way to make progress with this issue is to bark on the environmental issues...fuels, zoning ect. Something is causing a huge biological hazzard over the past 2 years and it's being hushed up. On our local news a few weeks ago, medical doctors cannot figure out why NORMAL healthy children are rating so highly with asthma...nationwide. Asthma is at it's all time highest level in medical history. They even say because of pollution. I believe Chemtrail activist are going to have to take up bigger issues with the particle pollution in order to be heard and taken seriously amoungst institutional America.

posted 11-27-2000 01:06 AM            

The golf question is easily answered...by a golfer....

Sense a lot of negativity from you Deborah....try listening to reggae (music)very uplifting....

Pollution was alot worse 5 to 10 back....but in all your study I'm sure you ran across the fact our air is around 6 years old...so improvements in air quality won't necessarily be seen for a while....steady conversion is the key....battery powered cars are not....

I see no debate involved here...boston....

posted 11-27-2000 01:32 AM            

Hehehee,I know your grand-ma plays Christy, ask her, if she was a middle aged man what she would do....not being sexist but men can swing it !

I would take the driver and bust it, smell a bird,and knock it stiff with 8 or 9 iron, and get that bird !

I got game ! LoL !

>I believe Chemtrail activist are going to have to take up bigger issues with the particle pollution in order to be heard and taken seriously amoungst institutional America.<

You have remarkable foresight...and truly ,or possibly, that could have been the case all along, just presented in a chemtrail format...I posted on your site the correlation between So2's and NOx's and the respiratory problems that follow it....

http://www.grida.no/soeno95/acidrain/backgrnd.htm

The Quote in the 2nd line speaks volumes, "SO2 and NOx have adverse effects on vegetation" when this is visable the case would be made, I have not seen this yet, but in some areas it must exist....

>I said to myself that the only way to make progress with this issue is to bark on the environmental issues<

But most of the environmentalists are communists....right throat....

Ack !

posted 11-27-2000 05:55 AM            

That depends on what kind of pollution you are referring to. Particulates, for example, are a MAJOR problem which is not improving, as evidenced by the alarming increase in pediatric asthma cases, particularly in urban areas.

>>steady conversion is the key...not battery powered cars...<<

I agree with that. I just don't think conversion is being taken seriously enough.

I don't know where you get the idea that concern for environmental matters = Communist.

posted 11-27-2000 11:19 AM            

IMHO, the longest and last arm of the NWO agenda is the environment. Re-reading the Communist goals of 1963, well, it's pretty obvious that most have been accomplished. The effects of the EPA laws have been and will continue to be passed down to the consumer. On a practical level, I feel the brunt of the federally punishable EPA laws when my husband is called out in the middle of the night when a piece of monitoring equipment goes down; his company feels the brunt by loss of production while the plant has to come to a complete stop. I know people who have spent time in federal prison for attempting to cover up an accidental spill. I know the person currently responsible for reporting as gone as far to report an anti-freeze puddle in the employee parking lot from a cashed water pump. This is only one medium sized plant in the Midwest that operates 360 days a year and a miniscule sampling of Federal laws and how they effect a few lives, but this is good. It needed to be done. And the more research, such as the latex in tires piece posted by Elvis, the better. The USA needs to take care of herself. But where does one draw the line between what's necessary and what's not? How clean is clean?

I have also witnessed the last 10 years small towns throughout Indiana, the hearts of America dry up economically from the closing of strip coal mines and peoples' lives totally turned upside down. Sure, the government offered re-education programs, but the only places the re-educated can find employment are the larger towns and cities, a far cry of the way of living these people are accustomed to or even want for their families. A very subtle "forced" relocation. And it is happening all over America, but unless you are a part of it, you're not effected by it on a personal level. This is just another example of a miniscule sampling of Federal Laws and how they effect a few lives, but this is not good, not for the human spirit. And isn't that the basis of communism? To demote the human spirit, make all alike, one for all and all for one? Corral them into the cities where they can be controlled and force tolerance down their throats?
http://www.sepp.org/keyissue.html

Regulatory Excess: In response to a lawsuit filed by the American Lung Association, an EPA-funded lobbying group, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has imposed ever more stringent standards on ground-level ozone and particulates. These standards are based on inadequate science and wildly unrealistic cost/benefit figures, yet EPA Administrator Carol Browner ignored comments put forth during the formal review process and zealously moved ahead. This puts the Clinton Administration in a bind. Opposition is building among labor unions and industries, city mayors and members of Congress. In part, the fear is that Browner's extreme measures will stall current efforts to deal with urban air pollution by forcing revision of existing plans. But more important, if costly federal regulation forces industry to flee the inner cities, the loss of jobs and the effect that will have on the municipal tax base could exacerbate poverty and destroy efforts to revitalize urban neighborhoods. For related commentary, see Urban Smog, Environment vs. Jobs, and Costs of Regulation.<

* * * * * * * *

Who among us can deny that the current administration has with an "in your face" attitude turned us over to globalism and the New Way without bothering to ask us how we felt about it? We should be educated consumers but not educated bottom feeders? Al Gore, a proven liar is determined to thrust our country out of sovereignty on every level, but his environmental policies have little concern for the average citizen of the United States of America and the impact thereon. Every major industry has been taken global. The goal is for the UN to be the only world government. The Klinton administration includes Carol Browner. We are experiencing urban sprawl to the max, but we also simultaneously have the EPA coming down on urban industry. We have been turned into the "Let them eat cake," society while we are led to believe that our economy is the greatest it's ever been. If the economy is so great, tell that to the manufacturing workers who lost their jobs to NAFTA (another NWO plan) because the big corporations didn't want to spend the dollars to build or re-build aging plants to comply with EPA and OSHA regulations.

(An excellent think tank: http://www.sepp.org/)
http://www.sepp.org/env-jobs/jobsprog.html
EPA is no environment for a jobs program
by S. Fred Singer
from The Roanoke Times & World News July 12, 1993

AS THEY focus on how to speed up economic growth, President Clinton and his economic brain trust are considering many options. One reality they must accept, however is that the further tightening of environmental regulations does not increase competitiveness, create jobs, nor even improve health in a significant way. The opposite is more nearly the case--as borne out by economic reasoning and by scientific facts.

ALSO:

These astronomical costs do not show up in the federal budget or in income taxes, but are a direct expense on business which, of course, must pass it along to the consumer in the form of higher prices for everything he buys. The average annual "environmental tax" on every American household exceeds $1,500 and is growing rapidly.

* * * * * * * *
BUT! the green agenda of the NWO is taking it to the extreme.

Note the quotes flipping on the home page: http://www.earthcharter.org/

Environmentalism - The Backdoor Direction to Enslave America http://www.amerikanexpose.com/othlinks.html#ENV

Why have we given up our public lands to UN control? http://www.unesco.org/mab/br/brdir/europe-n/usa.htm

What does this have to do with the contrails? For whatever reason, without proof, people are being led to believe via the internet that the contrails are chemtrails or something sinister is taking place in the skies on a daily basis. By the power of one person's suggestion several years ago "warning" of biological terrorism, the hoax of chemtrails began.

>8.5 HOW THE ENEMY MAY ATTACK YOU. The following are examples of munitions that a modem enemy may use against you in biological warfare. These munitions are regarded as sound methods of conducting operations. However, other means of attack are also possible and may be used by an enemy to achieve surprise.

1. SABOTAGE.

2. FREE BALLOONS.

3. GENERATORS.

4. AIRPLANE SPRAY.

5. VECTORS.

Because of the doubt and fear that plagues our country, the story snowballs to the point that people honestly believe that jet contrails from normal air traffic is not only sinister but responsible for the weather. Maybe so, but doubtful. As far as the health effects, again doubtful. The EPA has been and is doing their part regarding tests for the effects of JP-8. And it probably won't be too long before we see another industry curtailed and amended even more so by the EPA and OSHA, specifically, who can fly when, where and how. All of our other freedoms have been compromised, why not travel within our own borders and throughout the world? And what more reason for the EPA to act seriously and swiftly, then the cry from citizens that the contrails, as soon as they appear because of weather conditions, are making them sick. The trickle down effect of such a curtailment on yet another major industry would be devastating to our economy, our citizens and our sovereignty. And this is why, as long as I know positively without a doubt that the contrails I see over my property are just contrails that I cannot support any venue that says otherwise. It has occurred to me that perhaps the chemtrail story has been promoted to give the Green Agenda of the NWO a push, the same as the unproven and debatable Global Warming.

I realize that my simplicity annoys some people in this forum, but with all that's going on in the world and our country, we can't allow ourselves to be side-tracked by the insignificant that may be there by design. Although forums like these give us an avenue on which to vent our frustrations, let's face it, other than taking personal responsibility and preparing for our needs, defense of our property and spirit, this is all out of our control as individuals and collective citizens of what once was the United States of America.

So in closing and I apologize for the length, let me throw this one out in the ball park - With all the changes invoked concerning pollution over the past 10 years especially, is it possible that the contrails we have been witnessing the last 2 years are the by-product of a cleaner troposphere? Wouldn't that be a hoot!

posted 11-27-2000 06:51 PM            

I don't know where you got your information but air pollution has excelerated dramatically in the last 5 to 10 years. Reduced air pollution would result in a reduction of asthma and upper respiratory disease. We have seen a tenfold increase in these diseases over the last 10 years

posted 11-27-2000 08:46 PM            

Your post was excellent and I followed you and agreed with all that you wrote however, you failed to see what cause reinforcements.

Let's say global markets and environmental codes, as well as access and availablity to fuel/oil are countered across a NWO agenda. Using the environment as the first plank, which would be very effective in establishing global laws and regulations. But in order for these global laws to take effect, they would have to be studied and proven as means of justifing this "life threatening" problem. In other words, scientists have to receive years of data to justify what they are doing, then establish that there is a problem and why. Although the underlaying scheme may only have higher intentions of setting global UN laws upon all countries, ie Kyoto Treaties etc., but none the less, culprits are needed.

How effective would going to plank 2 of controlling transportation be if nothing was found dangerous in plank 1? It wouldn't hold water. So you see, there MUST be a dangerous world threatening discovery in the environment in order to go to stage two.

Conclusion: There are dangerous compounds and particles in contrails, put there to enforce global regulations.

posted 11-27-2000 10:28 PM            

Just how it is.............

posted 11-27-2000 11:19 PM            

>"Every year, U.S. industry releases about 24 billion pounds of toxic substances that are believed to cause developmental and neurological problems in children.<

The keyword there is "that are believed"....do I need to give you the freakin' definition of believed elvis ?

The ENS is a joke and has been for some time, I have subscribed to their newsletter for over a year and have seen nothing of substance come from the publication...in fact when they actually manage to get the letter out, it is not on time and hardly a reliable source for news.....

Guess you never seen the piece about how golf courses negatively impact the environment.....

Indoor air pollution is the cause of the asthma and respiratory problems guys....look at where these studies have been done...inner city...

Elvis, when you get your facts straight come see me.....

posted 11-28-2000 02:23 AM            

MTBE IS BAD STUFF

posted 11-28-2000 09:01 AM            

RE: Indoor Pollution http://www.sepp.org/controv/howtosave.html
"In this funny society," he says. "We're neglectful and paranoid at the same time. We get bent out of shape by minor risks like pesticides on fruits and vegetables. Then we neglect major risks like the failure to use seat belts and speeding."

Graham has hundreds of examples of how society could do a better job in responding to risks, but here's one that affects you directly:

"We would be better off," he says, "if we focused more on reducing indoor air pollution rather than trying to get rid of the last bit of outdoor air pollution."

Indoor pollution is currently a far greater risk to us than outdoor pollution. This is partly because most of us spend more than 90 percent of our time indoors. It's also because, with smoking and other indoor pollutants, indoor pollution levels can be 25 times - or even 100 times - higher than they are outdoors.

RE: Urban Sprawl http://www.sepp.org/controv/zealots.html

The desire to live in a spacious house with a yard, in a safe community with good schools, is not a sign of a dysfunctional civilization, but a prosperous - and free - society.

Now EPA is not responsible for the far-out views of a few zealots, to be sure. But the zealots include the vice president of the United States, another official beating the drums of sprawl concern. He wrote not long before his nomination that "the environmental crisis is now so serious that I believe our civilization must be considered in some basic way dysfunctional" and advocated "completely eliminating the internal combustion engine" in about 25 years.

posted 11-28-2000 12:08 PM            

"The ENS is a joke and has been for some time. Indoor air pollution is the cause of the asthma and respiratory problems guys....look at where these studies have been done...inner city...

Elvis, when you get your facts straight come see me....."

I am beginning to think your the joke seeker. I have been a consultant on indoor air quality for 30 years and have forgotten more than you will ever know about the subject.

All your posts are nothing more than insults and attacks on others. Why don't you take a hike.

posted 11-28-2000 01:20 PM            

Hmmmmm...Deb posted more on the subject of indoor air quality in the paragraph above than you have since your mysterious appearance as a authority on contrails...

Just because your a good vaccuum cleaner salesman, does not make you a "indoor air-quality specialist"....

I will say I don't belive you...

You have the word evil in both elvis and lives, and obviously in yourself as well.

>All your posts are nothing more than insults and attacks on others. Why don't you take a hike.<

Listen,evil...if you can't hang maybe you should try a lighter topic....

posted 11-28-2000 02:36 PM            

"Given your background what are your thoughts on Negative Ions generators, Ozone generators, and HEPA filters for cleaning inside air."

Negative ion generators are marginal at best. They don't trap the particulate for disposal. The negative charge collides with particulate and attracts it to the nearest solid surface i.e. floors, walls etc. This is old and outdated technology.

Ozone generators should never be used in residential applications. We use ozone generators to remove the odor and gas phase of cigarette smoke in Hospitality applications by injecting it into the circulating air handlers. We install a monitor in the space being treated to ensure that the level of ozone never exceeds .05 parts per million.

HEPA filtration is 99.97% effective down to .3 micron particulate size. HEPA filters are only effective in residential applications when used in portable air cleaners. To clean the entire house with HEPA filtration you have to have one for each room in the house, which is normally cost prohibitive. Most people who use portable HEPA filtration use it in the bedroom to clean the air as they sleep. You cannot install HEPA filters in your furnace duct because of the pressure drop.

The best way to clean particulate from your home is to install a Honeywell electronic air cleaner on the return side of your furnace. The Honeywell in-duct air cleaner will trap 90% or more of all particulate down to .001 micron size on the first pass.
The purified air is then evenly dispersed throughout the home via the supply vents located in most every room. You can run the furnace 24 hours a day (fan only) without heating or cooling. This provides a constant flow of purified air throughout the home. If you do not have a forced air furnace i.e. baseboard heat or hot water heat....your only choice of residential air purification is the portable models. The normal cost of a Honeywell electronic air cleaner is appx $1000 installed.

posted 11-28-2000 03:05 PM            

Elvis, when you get your facts straight come see me....."

You want facts. Tell all the people who live near major airports that air pollution has decreased in the last 5 to 10 years. You are clueless as it relates to outdoor and indoor air quality issues.
http://www.metrokc.gov/health/phnr/eapd/reports/cancer/

posted 11-28-2000 03:57 PM            

I assume your ozone generator is manufactured by Alpine. Alpine Industries uses the 'Amway' method of distribution i.e. pyramid marketing. If you check the Federal Trade Commission web site you will find past and present litigation between Alpine and the US Government. Alpine has been ordered to 'cease and desist' as it relates to claims of air purification and other false claims.

The sensor on your portable ozone generator is basically worthless. The ozone is dispensed from the generator by a fan motor, that propels the ozone away from the generator and into the room. The sensor doesn't react until the room is full of ozone. By that time you are taking in well over the .05 parts per million threshold. Prolonged exposure to levels of ozone over .05 ppm will cause upper respiratory disease.

posted 11-28-2000 07:44 PM            

This is not true.

There has never been any incidents of respiratory disease or any other side effects of over exposure to ozone. You have been given this information from government regulation laws of ozone. Ozone is used in chambered tanks, chelation of blood and other ozone therapies to cure cancer and Aides. When they say prolonged, this is refering to the same damage that oxygen can cause when over exposed. A 0.04 ppm newly government regulated ozone machine would take over 24 hours to clear a small room of it's contaminants...that is if no new contaminants have entered the room. Whereas a cold plasma or 10 ppm ozone machine could do the job within 15 minutes.

High measures have been taken for ozone therapy not to be used in the United States being that it could put the medical and pharmaceutical industry out of business overnight. Germany uses Ozone treatments and has NO Aides or Cancer.