posted 01-06-2001 11:01 AM            

I, for one think there is something to this chemtrail phenomenon. But if it is an attack of some kind, I don't think its an American operation. Not sure what NSA's opinion is on that? It seems to me that elements in American Military Intelligence are still among the good guys. I can't speak for CIA/MI-6 or even NSA (who can?). I still think there's some truth in the Aircraft Experts fourm.

NSAsucks, I wish you wouldn't give TopGun a hard time. We could use him to knock down one of these KC-135's to settle this argument once and for all!

(But NTSB/FAA would probably just come in and bulldoze all the wreckage before we could recover any evidence. They're experts at 'cleaning up' all of those 'air disasters'.)

posted 01-06-2001 11:30 AM            

I apologize to the forum members.

posted 01-06-2001 07:32 PM            

Can you tell me how many "MR" Air Force pilots are required to meet the current standard of general "readiness" as deemed necessary by whoever makes that decision for the United States military? In other words, in order to maintain the level necessary to manage any crisis which might arise anywhere in the world at any given time should the US military be called upon to intervene, what is the number of MR pilots below which it is not advisable to fall?

>>>Besides, our avionics and systems are of such complexity that a specialist is usually required to do the troubleshooting.<<<

I found this interesting and am not surprised to hear it. Did you initially train in a less "complex" system, or does one start right away with "state of the art"? The reason I'm asking is that I wonder if, given the increasing complexity of avionics, etc., you would feel more, or less, in complete control of your experience actually flying the aircraft. I suppose the concept of "teamwork" weighs very heavily into this picture - i.e. everyone involved, from pilot to mechanic to avionics specialist, works as "one unit", each supplying the knowledge necessary to keeping a mission intact and moving forward.

Still, here is an analogy: I went through a 7-month full-time computer graphics program a few years back and discovered halfway through it that, although there is no limit to what can be accomplished via the ever-improving technology [and I did find this very exciting as a concept], I felt "out of touch" with my "materials" and therefore out of touch with the creative process as I had previously known it. Do you see what I mean? I did finish the program, but am using the skills I learned in quite a different way than was originally intended.

I therefore wonder if the extremely rapid acceleration of technology in the military has in any way cut its highly-motivated participants off from a sense of "owning" their actual experience. I.e., has the technology depersonalized the combat reality in ways that any of you discuss amongst yourselves?

posted 01-07-2001 02:26 AM            

I'm writing to let you know that I"ll answer your questions soon. I got off work late tonight, so I only have time to post this reply. Thanks for your patience!

Maverick

posted 01-07-2001 05:01 PM            

Take your time - I have all the patience in the world.

posted 01-08-2001 02:49 AM            

Defender-

Thanks for the welcome to this forum. I'm glad to be here.

I won't tell you that chemtrails don't exist, although I am highly skeptical. I will, however, offer who isn't involved in an operation against U.S. citizens, and that's the pilots in the USAF. Like you, Defender, I'm not going to even try to speak for the CIA or any clandestine agency. On this subject, though, I find it hard to believe that an operation as large as it would have to be has not been detected by any of my fellow pilots, or me for that matter. The Air Force would probably own any facility that these planes would have to fly out of, and the small pilot community has a grapevine that you would not believe. We are very aware of the accusations being leveled at us, and there's still nobody seeing anything unusual.

Unfortunately, my contention that I am a pilot has gotten me labeled as a disinfo agent and the likes on Carnicom's board. Oh well, so be it. Apparently, there was no place for a CURRENT military pilot in a forum that deals mostly in accusations that the government is using military planes to poison it's own people. Hmmm...

"We could use him to knock down one of these KC-135's to settle this argument once and for all!"

I wouldn't think of "knocking down" one of our KC-135s. I went through pilot training with a lot of the pilots, and they are every bit as patriotic yet wary of our government as you and I. I've stayed at their houses, met their families, and refueled many times off of them while airborne. I've crossed the pond several times with them, both in an F-16 behind them and inside as a passenger. Never have I seen anything that I would consider unusual, and I've been up close and personal with both the aircrew and the planes.

I'll never deny that the "chemtrail" phenomenon exists, but I will refute things that I believe to be false through personal experience. That's my end of the deal...I won't lie to you. If I don't know something, then I won't give you any BS. Heck, I may be able to narrow your search for the true culprits if the chemtrail phenomenon is as legitimate as is alleged.

O.K., I'm off my soapbox now. Sorry for that, but I had to get that out. Once again, thanks for having me here. I appreciate the friendliness! Anytown, USA is safe, and NSAsucks can sleep well knowing that we're not dropping any bombs on him. I wonder if "dealing with 2,000 lb laser-guided bombs" is one of his 250-part series. I'd like to read that one!

____________________________________________

Deborah-

Thanks for your patience. Here's my best shot at your questions.

"...in order to maintain the level necessary to manage any crisis which might arise anywhere in the world at any given time should the US military be called upon to intervene, what is the number of MR pilots below which it is not advisable to fall?"

We currently have about 24 planes sititng on our ramp, give or take one or two as they cycle in and out of the depot up at Hill AFB in Utah for upgrades and major overhauls. Our squadron has 40 pilots, and I am under the impression that we're manned at 100%. So, somebody somewhere has come up with this formula to determine that for roughly every 3 aircraft we will have five pilots. With the shortages and cutbacks that the Air Force is experiencing nowadays and the pilots that are leaving in droves to the airlines, one would debate that we're not currently in a position to fight any substantial war. I'm not sure if there is a specific minimum number or ratio of pilots that is written down somewhere. Instead, every wing (fighter, bomber, tanker, etc.)goes through Operational Readiness Inspections (ORI's) that are administered by Quality Assurance personnel. The data is probably tracked somewhere and gives the folks in the Pentagon a good idea about what our true capabilities and deficiencies are.

"Did you initially train in a less "complex" system, or does one start right away with "state of the art"? The reason I'm asking is that I wonder if, given the increasing complexity of avionics, etc., you would feel more, or less, in complete control of your experience actually flying the aircraft."

As far as the complexity of our avionics goes, you hit the nail on the head. My first plane that I flew in pilot training was the T-37. These planes were made back in the 1950's and are very basic. The gauges and controls are very simple, and the aircraft systems are even simpler. You recieve the "building block" approach throughout the training, and the complexity of the aircraft increase as well. By the time I made it to F-16 school, I had a pretty good knowledge of how to fly a plane. The 6 months at RTU slowly introduced the other skills necessary to be effective in combat. As one task would become second nature, another thing would be added to the equation. Leaving F-16 school, pilots are able to (and expected to) perform a lot of tasks simultaneously under a lot of stress. This is made much easier by the avionics, not hindered by them. They are pretty user-friendly. Also, you're right about teamwork making it a lot easier. Unlike my Hollywood nom-de-plume "Maverick," we're all team players when it comes to flying.

"I therefore wonder if the extremely rapid acceleration of technology in the military has in any way cut its highly-motivated participants off from a sense of "owning" their actual experience. I.e., has the technology depersonalized the combat reality in ways that any of you discuss amongst yourselves"

I know what you're talking about with the "virtual" aspect of our technology vs. reality. I was an art/ graphic design major for a while in college, and I always liked working with goauche, ink and pencil more than using Illustrator and Pagemaker to create things.

Translating that to what I'm doing now, though, doesn't quite fit completely. You are pretty close to the truth, though. I grew up with pencils, pastels, and a paintbrush, so the transition to using a virtual paitbrush via a computer graphics tablet did make things very detached and unemotional. In the cockpit, there can be some of that same detachment when I lock something up on radar, shoot a missile, and see the track on my radar screen disappear when the plane blows up. But, there's no detachment when I have to go to a visual fight with another plane, fight my way to his six o'clock, and watch my bullets rip his plane to shreds. I'm right there. The same is true in the air-to-ground arena. Dropping a laser-guided bomb from 25,000 feet while looking through a TV screen in my cockpit is not the same as coming in at treetop level and feeling the shockwave from your own bombs rattle your plane as you egress the target area. I would rather not do any of these, because it means that people are probably dying as a result of this.

Hope this clears things up for you.

I don't want to be accused of trying to change the subject on this board from chemtrails, so if you have any more questions you can also email me at topgun0069 at hotmail dot com. I'm happy to answer them either way.

Maverick

posted 01-08-2001 09:02 AM            

It only takes a few rotten apples in the right places to foul up the system. I believe there are American and other agents at work that are trying to save America, and a great many of them come from the U.S. military because they were the ones who didn't get in it for the money. They know that communism/complacency/neo-nazis (NWO?) IS a threat and they have studied military history, they know that the U.S. is not invincible (even though they hope to make it that way).

There are probably some good guys in CIA but even they all don't know whats happening.

"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

posted 01-08-2001 12:44 PM            

I figured that this is as good a place to post this as anywhere, so here it is.

I noticed that I've now got a whole list of posts on Mr. Carnicom's board about whether or not I am who I say I am. From what I gather, there's no votes for "Yes" yet. Even better still, some of the theories about me really made me laugh. I tried when I was on their site to make my case. Now, I will try to make it here. Either way, I have no idea how I can prove who I say I am any better than I have already. Any suggestions?

Of course, I shouldn't really care about who believes me, especially coming from the site run by a person who banned me immediately after I posted a picture of myself in my plane and then he wouldn't return any of my e-mails. I feel that there are a lot of good-intentioned folks on both of these sites, on both sides. We're all in a search for the truth here. I'm discouraged, however, by the fact that people who make very scathing accusations against the Air Force seem to know little to nothing about anything military at all except for using Hollywood catch phrases like "just following orders." I'm here to help out with some education on that side of things. If you truly believe I am not who I say I am then I suggest that you educate yourself a little better on all things flying and military, then approach me with questions. If I'm a disinfo agent, then I'll answer the harder ones wrong. Or, you can look up any of my answers to the above questions or ask a pilot in person what they think. I've been telling the truth all along, and I stand behind anything that I have said. If I were a disinfo agent, I would think that I would spend a lot more time vigorously denying that chemtrails exist.

I am a pilot in the Air Force. I am also a tax-paying, god-fearing citizen of this country. I consider myself to be a free thinker. I believe in ghosts, bigfoot, and a government UFO cover-up. I think that our government is pretty capable of doing pretty terrible things to people, as is anybody in power. I haven't had to take the Anthrax shot yet, and I may refuse to take it if required. It's too bad that I'll probably never be accepted as a military pilot by anybody on Cliff's board. Because what I say doesn't quite fit in to their theories for whatever reason, they find it more convenient just to label me as a liar than re-think their theories. If you are going to label me as a fake, then come at me with more than just a blanket statement about me or the "chemtrails exist, and he must know about them if he's a pilot and therefore he's not a pilot" argument. Try to discredit me based on my statements, but don't label me solely because of my stance. I fly every day through contrail altitudes (fighter pilots call it the Con Level,) breathing the air that's up there. I also make contrails myself occasionally, some of which linger for hours after I've made them. I've never been told not to breathe the air up at altitude or not to fly through a contrail. Is this personal experience of mine incorrect? Well, please feel free to give me some evidence to the contrary.

Deborah, I like your theory the best about where the upswing in contrails are coming from. We're polluting the heck out of our earth, and I think that we could be seeing a lot of the by-products of petroleum consumption coming back to haunt us. I hadn't thought about it before I read it here, but you may be right. Maybe this will end up being a wake up call to us all. I'm in no position to argue this one, though, seeing that I probably go through more kerosene in one sortie than most people do in a year.

Well, just my two cents, to plagarize someone on the "other" site. Hopefully, mine and a dollar will get me more than just a cup of coffee.

Maverick

posted 01-08-2001 01:47 PM            

I will take you at your word that you are a pilot. I don't personally believe that the military would conduct operations against the U.S. population, although I do believe that they may be engaging in an operation for the protection of the U.S. population. Anyway, I had a couple of questions given your field:

You mentioned that you had not heard anything about the operation though the grapevine. Does this imply that pilots that might be part of a top-secret project, would share this information with other pilots who were not involved, such that national top-secrets can't really be kept secret?

Also, if you hypothetically happened to be part of such a top-secret operation, would you actually share that information with us here on the message boards?

If yes to the latter question, would you not fear reprisal or reproach?

Thanks.

posted 01-08-2001 02:26 PM            

Even if you are Air Force and not ANG?, (and I have no problem believing that you are an F-16 pilot, by the way) I know that there are multiple levels of security in the military as there are in civilian intel groups that can be very extensive. Intel heiarchy gets to be very maze/labyrinth-like... Like peeling an onion, several layers?

Isn't it possible that something could be happening without your knowledge, somewhere in the U.S. CIA has operated at least two airlines over the years. Eugene Hasenfuss may have been part of that, I can't remember, but he flew out of Mojave in the 80's. Those were not routine operations.

P.S. I AM kidding about knocking down a tanker, that's why I use .... but if I were an F-16 pilot, Air National Guard or AF, (isn't there a differnce in structure/command/function?) I would respond in that way too. I know you can't kid about things like that and I wasn't trying to bait you.... just trying to make a point. I'm sure that there are hundreds(?) of military flights a day that really are routine, maybe all of them. But why couldn't chemtrails be carried out by independant 'civilian' airlines like Evergreen International Aviation (see Aviation Experts).

Most of us have never seen war (outside of combat video/film), overseas and certainly not here in the U.S. (other than the recent flooding of U.S. with drugs and weapons, Waco, Attica, Kent State...).

I think it's healthy to realize that a real "hot war" could happen in the U.S. some day, especially after seeing tanks and paramilitary(?) troops in Waco... the rise in paramilitary units in ATF/Customs & metro police depts. and both independant and goverment-funded armed militias (like the Viper militia in AZ) nationwide, use of National Guard troops overseas, ...etc. etc.

posted 01-08-2001 03:03 PM            

Thanks! Here's my best shot at your questions. You've got several good points here.

"You mentioned that you had not heard anything about the operation though the grapevine. Does this imply that pilots that might be part of a top-secret project, would share this information with other pilots who were not involved, such that national top-secrets can't really be kept secret?"

Definitely not. My contention is that given the size that this operation would have to be, there would be virtually no chance that something this covert would go unnoticed by the other pilots at the installation that are not "read in" to the classified parts of the operation.. Instead, there would have to be some type of cover story explaining what is going on, or just a denial of it's existence. Either way, we do talk in small circles about the "cool plane I saw in the hangar the other day." I've heard nothing about the "wierd people in chemcial suits loading up the strangely modified KC-135."

There are a lot of operations going on in our military that I am completely unaware of. That's good. I probably have no business knowing most of them. But, every project that has been declassified to my level has been of the small enough variety to be concealable. The chemtrail allegations, if true, would make this operation one of the largest projects that the Air Force is undertaking, classified or not. I find it imposssible to believe that any of my KC-135 friends are:

(1) Involved in any type of spraying at all, especially considering that I haven't seen any modifications done to a KC-135 or KC-10 that make me suspicious, and

(2) Are not talking about it AT ALL. If it was briefed to them that they are spraying poison, I find it hard to believe, wait, impossible to believe, that they would knowingly do it to their friends, family, and loved ones. If they were briefed that they were spraying medecine, I still find it hard to believe that no one has questioned it after seeing what is being alleged online nowadays.

Also, there are not many KC-135 flights that don't have a lot of non-aircrew aboard. How does one explain to the people on board what is going on without making at least ONE person suspicious?

"Also, if you hypothetically happened to be part of such a top-secret operation, would you actually share that information with us here on the message boards?"

No, not necessarily. I'd be potentially committing treason if I came online and shared some of the things that I know.

Let me give you an overview on the way our security clearances work. Most everybody in the military has a basic security clearance, which is at the Secret level. Secret is not really secret, because nowadays you can watch CNN and learn most of the same stuff that they're being briefied on. Some info is still kept secret, but a piece of Secret info that is leaked is not going to reveal anything spectacular, such as the existence of UFOs or how to build an atom bomb. Above that is Top Secret, which is reserved for intelligence, most pilots, and other officers. The info on this level would cause pretty serous harm to the military if leaked, but some things do still end up being leaked. Even higher is Top Secret-SCI (secret compartmentalized information) which is when you start getting into the "black" world. In the Air Force, the people who have this clearance are only "read in" to a project that they need to know about. Anything that would deal with chemspraying, if it existed, would be at least on a Top Secret SCI level. To be cleared to receive Top Secret SCI info, you have to go through a very thorough background investigation which includes interviews with many people, including your friends, neighbors, teachers, and employers. It's not an easy clearance to get, believe me. This being said, I'm very perplexed that none of my KC-135 pilot friends have an SCI clearance. Do I just know the wrong ones?

Anyway, if I found out that we were doing something horrible to the public, I would not have the conscience to keep it quiet. I don't know anybody that does. So, I would venture to say that someone would surely have come out publicly if this were true. I know of things that I can't go out and tell anybody about, but they don't deal with any type of operation involving the public, poison or medecine. Do you see my point?

"If yes to the latter question, would you not fear reprisal or reproach?"

Of course. But, look at it this way. If your family, your wife, and your kids were being attacked every day, and there was something you could do about it, would you stand around and let it happen? No way. There's a huge difference between leaking nuclear secrets to the Chinese and exposing a government-imposed operation against civilians. Leaking nuclear secrets is treason. Exposing a military operation against civilians would expose an illegal, immoral, and outrageous activity.

Hope I answered your questions. Let me know if you have any more.

Maverick

posted 01-08-2001 03:19 PM            

Just read your post. Sorry I didn't get to it before I wrote the above post.

Thanks for the clarifications. I kinda knew you were joking.

I hope that my reply to Thermit above answers a few of your questions. A few things to add, though...

You may be on to something with Evergreen. I won't dispute that. The point that I am making is that I don't think that the Air Force is involved, namely the KC-135 guys. For all I know, there could be an operation going on that another agency is involved in. If there was another agency involved in this, I believe that it would not be based out of Air Force installations based on my above points. Too many folks would have a "need to know" to make this feasible to keep quiet.

As far as active duty vs. ANG goes, the command structures are pretty similar. The pilots on both sides go through the same training and have the same flying requirements. The only major difference is that the ANG guys are more locally oriented since they do their own hiring. Active duty folks have to move around a lot. ANG live in their local area for their entire careers. I work a lot with both ANG, reserve, and active duty pilots. Nowadays, there's not much of a difference between any of us.

Maverick

posted 01-08-2001 03:44 PM            

I believe you are right about the problems of concealing an operation designed to attack the citizenry. However, I don't think that is what we are dealing with, so those "problems" don't actually apply. Thanks for the information on the levels of clearances. I used to have a secret clearance, when I was working on ground-based software for the Shuttle and Space Station Programs. No big whoop, but even that paperwork was tricky to complete to their satisfaction.

quote:

---

http://www.af.mil/news/factsheets/KC_135_Stratotanker.html
Inventory: Active duty, 373; ANG and Reserve, 268

---

With 600+ planes, looks like there are a lot of pilots who potentially could be involved. Maybe you do just "know the wrong ones". It might not be the Air Force which is involved with this operation, but even if it is, I salute them (and you) for the protection being afforded to the nation.

Thanks.

posted 01-08-2001 06:09 PM            

Everyone makes mistakes, but when they do a successful mission, (right or wrong?), they usally accomplish about 3-4 things at the same time!

If it weren't for many individuals in our military intel groups, we'd all be speaking German by now. And my father, for one, wouldn't be here (neither would I come to think of it!)... but then there was Viet Nam, POW-MIA's abandoned .....It's the politicians to blame, (and who or what controls them), not the military.

Still have to pray those (good) guys are paying attention. I know they're more aware of whats going on than I am.

posted 01-08-2001 06:49 PM            

I notice you mention that you haven't taken the anthrax vaccination, and I think you said that you would refuse if forced. I commend you, by the way, for taking this stance, having read some of Capt. Joyce Riley's work and the Len Horowitz’ books.

posted 01-08-2001 09:26 PM            

TopGun, thank you for your thoughtful responses to my questions. I really appreciate your taking the time to do this. If things are getting too "off-topic", I will take responsibility for that as I openly admit to seeing a sort of "window" here and wanting to explore the possibilities.

>>>I work a lot with both ANG, reserve, and active duty pilots. Nowadays, there's not much of a difference between any of us.<<<

That is very interesting - thank you for providing this insight.

P.S. Gouache is my close-second favorite next to Prismacolors.

posted 01-08-2001 10:07 PM            

It is beyond my comprehension how anyone can make accusations against the Air Force, ANG and even the airlines that have come acrossed the Internet and I've said before I am ashamed of myself for even considering the possibility.

posted 01-09-2001 01:09 AM            

Well, here'e a few more answers to your questions:

Cydoniaquest says:

"But here's my question: Wouldn't you acknowledge that by your refusal to accept this vaccine that you at least accept that the possibility exists for chemical experimentation on military personnel? I'm not saying that's what chemtrails are, mind you. My own personal theory is that they may be a component of an EMP defense shield, an offshoot of cold war technology....but it seems to me that at least on some level, you may believe that the military is at least capable of giving you a substance that may be harmful to you. Do you agree with this assessment?"

Yep, I'll definitely agree with that one. Our government has experimented on military folks in the past (above-ground atomic testing in the late 40s and early 50s,) so I agree that the possibly exists. But before I get torn apart, realize that I believe that the Anthrax vaccine is not an attempt to experiment on troops. Instead, it was an untested vaccine that was rushed into service as a stop-gap measure to keep our troops in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia safe from the persistent threat of Saddam using Anthrax against us. I believe that the program, when instituted, was in no way ill-intentioned. Commanders saw a huge weakness in our defenses and had to do something about it quickly. Nowadays, however, the whole program has turned into a circus because the company that produces the stuff cannot even meet basic quality control and sanitation standards, and has already been bailed out by the feds financially once. And now with people coming forward with medical problems, the people in charge now are caught between ending the program and dealing with potentially hundreds of thousands of lawsuits and medical claims or keeping quiet and allowing a statistically significant portion of our troops to continue to have adverse reactions to a flawed vaccine. It goes without saying what side of the issue most of us pilot are on. A few of our flight docs have taken it upon themselves to do a lot of research on the subject, and they recommend that we all sandbag as much as we can until either Congress gets the monkey off our backs or we are forced to make a decision between our careers or a potential health problem later on in life. I'm hoping that I won't have to make a choice. (hint: contact your congressman. )

Also, it's interesting that you believe in an anti-EMP theory when it comes to chemtrails. I can sure see your point there. Without going into too much detail, the Russians have a VERY advanced EMP program. Hell, there are even small EMP warheads going into artillery shells now. Everybody in the world knows how much the U.S. and it's military rely upon computers to function. So, I see nothing wrong with your theory, other than the "shield" would be over Russia instead of us after a week's worth of winds.

Deborah-

I hope that you weren't thinking that I don't want you to ask any questions. With a prominent member on this site filling up the posts with posts having nothing to do with chemtrails, I just wasn't wanting to look like I was trying to shift the board off of the subject at hand. If no one minds, I'll answer any questions on this board that you want to ask.

I haven't worked with a paintbrush in a long time. I've been thinking about taking it back up! Lately, I've been more of a straight pencil-on-sketchbook kind of guy.

NoDebbunker-

Thanks for your compliments and your honesty. What kind of plane does your neighbor fly? Have you talked to him about chemtrails? I suppose that you might have come to your conclusions by talking to him already. Either way, I'm glad to hear that you're friends with him. The intenet has made everything very impersonal, and very easy to both insult and impersonate. There's no substitute to looking someone in the eye, and watching body language.

Everybody Else-

I've advocated before on the "other" site to anybody who believes in a USAF/Chemtrail connection to go by their local Air Force base and eat lunch at a restuarant somewhere right off base. Lunch time for pilots always seems to be around 11:00 everywhere. Anyway, you'll have a lot of pilots to talk to if you are there at the right time. I'm sure that they'd be glad to talk to you about whatever you want as long as it's kept CORDIAL. I ask you to look them in the eye when they answer your questions. You'll know the truth whether or not you even listen to what they say. On this subject, I would avoid trying to get anything out of the official channels. You'll be assigned a Public Affairs Officer to answer any of your questions. They are great people, but they are not very educated on flying and I'd bet that they'd be of little help to you. Besides, they have a lot of glossed-over generic responses to questions given to them by higher headquarters on subjects like noise complaints, and I'm sure that they have one for contrails and chemtrails by now.

Well, that's enough for now. Hope I was of assistance!

Maverick

posted 01-09-2001 01:37 AM            

>Instead, it was an untested vaccine that was rushed into service as a stop-gap measure to keep our troops in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia safe from the persistent threat of Saddam using Anthrax against us.<

The antrax vaccine has been in use for over 25 years....hardly untested...

Vaccine

posted 01-09-2001 02:06 AM            

Ah, yes, you are partially correct. It is the same basic vaccine that has been given to vets for 25 years. I'm not too into the "doctor speak," but my readings and our flight docs told me that the vaccine is different from the one given to veterinarians in the dosage amount, frequency, and most importantly, the solution in which the vaccination is held. I was pretty well educated on the subject about a year and a half ago when we were almost forced to take the vaccine, but I'm not too clear on the specifics now. We even asked if we could take the civilian version of the vaccine, but it was not approved.

Maverick

P.S.-Don't worry about spoiling the lovefest. It is still one compared to the NWO posts.

posted 01-09-2001 02:54 AM            

Just because I participate in meaningless conversation does not mean I'm not listening....

Fact is there was a lab that produced a bad bunch of batches...thus the conspiracy...the military does not have an interest in sick employees...

I have family in the military and have the upmost respect for those who protect our country....

Ever been to Vance ?

posted 01-09-2001 07:36 PM            

I can’t thank you enough for your intelligent response. The level of rational discussion that you bring to this forum is rare and refreshing indeed. I hope you will continue to comment on this board, because you offset some of the mindless bickering that I have admittedly been caught up in as well (I’m ashamed to say). I can’t believe that Carnicom would’ve kicked you off his board, because that seems like a very foolish thing to do, given that you probably represent a rare and level-headed calm amongst the storm in these types of discussions.

Rather than disagreeing with your comments, I found myself having the opposite reaction as I read your thoughts regarding the idea of military biological testing on its own soldiers. In fact, I find your view to be extremely comforting and reassuring. Like you, I share similar thoughts as to why the vaccine was used in the Gulf War, because in order for me to have to believe that there was intentional testing on the soldiers (using them as lab rats for pharmaceutical companies) I might also have to sign on to the belief that Swartzkopf(sp?), Powell, and George Bush Sr. all approved of the idea. I don’t buy for a second that these men would knowingly approve a biological test on our own soldiers....although I could see where a drug company like Merck might have fooled them into doing so by selling them a bill of goods in their haste to gear up for war.

As for the EMP defense shield theory, I would like to expand on your thoughts a bit: You point out that the winds aloft would carry such an aerial EMP shield (once deployed) away from its intended target, but my own personal observations of “chemtrails” (if you’ll accept my use of that term for the sake of discussion) would also seem to support my theory. I’ve observed that the aircraft laying down the trails often lead their ground targets (assuming metropolitan areas are the targets) to compensate for drift vectors in the winds aloft. For instance, its not uncommon to see satellite photos of heavy “chemtrails” off the coast of Los Angeles that seem perfectly timed to arrive on shore and blanket LA by early morning. I’ve often seen coverage over Sacramento that started off as a grid pattern in the morning developing into a quite stagnant overcast by the afternoon. So, if we are to accept the concept of high altitude aerial spraying for the purposes of deploying an EMP shield, then it makes sense that winds aloft would be a strong strategic consideration in this operation. It seems to me that such an aerial shield would not be intended for long term use, allowing the winds aloft to carry the chemtrails far away from their intended ground targets, but rather, I see it as a short term defense measure that could probably be fully deployed within a few hours of a nuclear alert over the major metropolitan areas of the US.

I would love to do a study to examine the correlation (if there is one ) between high reports of chemtrail activity and sunspot activity, because I’m thinking that a scientist might find days of heavy incoming solar radiation useful in testing the effectiveness of the chemtrail dome in blocking radiation from reaching ground sensors. One possible supporting point for this bit of speculation is that a high occurrence of chemtrails have been noted in places like Sydney Australia where ozone depletion is high. I wonder if this isn’t by design in order for scientists to be able to study the efficiency of radiation blockage by before and after deployments of a chemtrail EMP shield. They could do this by taking before and after measurements of solar radiation levels and naturally occurring gamma rays with sensitive radiation ground sensors.

I would also think that the type of spray patterns would be important, if the EMP shield theory is correct. A grid type pattern might actually be most effective because it might have some of the effects of a Faraday cage at repelling radiation until the gaps of the grid were filled in by process of wind drift......Well these are some thoughts to chew on anyway.

posted 01-10-2001 12:43 AM            

Point taken. The only thing that I have to add is that I believe that there was (and still is) only one company responsible for the production of the military version of the vaccination. The unavailability of the vaccine is precisely why I have not had to take it yet. This being said, the company that makes it is currently not producing the vaccinations due to an unsanitary production facility, poor quality control, and if what I've heard were true, financial problems. I'll agree with you about the military not having an interst in sick employees. How can I argue that? But I will throw out to you that one of our pilots was hospitalized with a strange illness the day after taking the vaccinations while stationed at another base. And, with my flight doctors (the ones who may be administering the vaccinations) recommending that we avoid the vaccine as much as possible, I'm skeptical of what is being pushed on us in the military. I agree that it is effective at what it is designed to do, but there are problems that need to be addressed by our government on the short and long-term safety of the military vaccine in its current form.

I went to pilot training at Columbus AFB, MS, but I flew through Vance on a cross-country last summer. I wasn't there for very long (it was a gas-and-go) but I remember the folks I talked to on the flight line were pretty friendly. I remember that they were having yet another T-37 in-flight emergency, and I had to wait a while until I could start up and take off. Like Columbus, that is one busy base!

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Cydoniaquest-

Thanks again for the compliments. I will continue to post as much as I can, and I will always be as cordial as possible. I'm human, though, and I do get mad enough to be a little insulting (reference NSAsucks and his extremely rude comments directed at me, dating back to when I was still on Carnicom's board.) But, it takes a lot of insults to get me that angry. Sure, we're all going to disagree every once in a while (O.K., more than that,) but there's no reason to be abusive to one another. So, thanks to you from me that you've been as cordial to me as I've been to you. I really appreciate that as well, especially after my experience on the "other" board.

Speaking of that "other" board, I didn't exactly start off on it on the right foot. I had just been verbally attacked twice in the same week (once by phone, once on the street) by folks that were accusing me of dumping things on them. I found Carnicom's site, then his board after doing a web search. I entered the board a little angry, then I saw amongst the many posts a few that were not only blatantly untrue, but labeled Air Force pilots as nothing short of murderers of our own people. Upset, I fired the first shots and it went downhill from there. I never personally insulted anyone, but my anger did show through on my posts. To Carnicom's credit, he put up with me for longer than I thought that he would. However, I was continuously attacked multiple times on his site, even when not being confrontational. I was legitmately wanting to learn when on his site, but I had the door slammed shut in my face by insults every time I would ask a question. Sometimes, my post had been removed altogether. I suppose that the final straw came when Guided Muscle and NSAsucks attacked me and once again labeled me a disinfo agent. I posted a picture of myself, followed by a short resume of my training in the Air Force. The next morning, the entire thread was erased and I was banned. Based on this, I'll let you make up your own mind about whether the truth is actually sought on that site. Not to advertise, but I actually was able to put my last post on my own board before it was erased from Carnicom's. Also, you'll find a "beginners' guide" to pilot radio communications taken from an e-mail that I wrote to someone. You can find it at EZboard at http://pub31.ezboard.com/bcontrailsandchemtrails22884. (sorry, Thermit. hope I'm not commiting a posting faux pas here.)

Unfortunately, I'm not sure if I am going to be able to post for a while after this weekend, since I'm going on a 45-day deployment over to a particularly oily (pun intended) hotspot somewhere off east of here. I may be back for a while in the middle of the trip, but suffice it to say that I probably won't be able to do much online other than check my e-mail. If I'm not able to post, I'll be back online sometime near mid-March. Or, if Congress and George W. decide to stop the madness, I may be home earlier.

I'm glad that you agree with my post on Anthrax. We're not all supposed to disagree all the time, are we? I don't have the specifics tonight, but some of what I read about the company that makes the vaccine surprised me (like paying a very infulential retired general lots of money to help lobby for the contract.)

Hmm....your EMP discussion is pretty interesting. I'll throw in that if we're laying down an EMP shield timed to make the early-morning rush hour period, why would somebody choose that time to set up the defenses? Also, would this then be saying that whenever we "deploy" this shield, are we under a pretty serious threat of attack from an ICBM with an EMP-related warhead? I'm sure that you don't know the answer to that one, especially considering that NORAD and other agencies will never let that info out. I don't know the answer, either, I'm just giving you something to ponder. Other than that, I don't have much for you. You're a lot more educated on the larger scenario EMP stuff than I am. I'm definitely still open to your theories.

China would be my first pick on this subject, too. They scare me. Watch them very closely in the next few years. They'll get more and more aggressive as their military grows by the leaps and bounds that it currently is and will continue to do. China can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag right now, but they are the superpower to watch since their capabilities are improving significantly every day.

Have a great evening!

Maverick