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  A Vulcan speaks about barium physics and logic

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Topic:   A Vulcan speaks about barium physics and logic

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sarek
New Member


2 posts, Feb 2001

posted 02-09-2001 05:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sarek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

I am a physicist, but not professionally involved in any of this thing
directly.

Firstly, I must say that the evidence for existence of 'chemtrails' is
as yet unconvincing to me. The pictures look like nothing but contrails.

Nonetheless, it may be illuminating to logically pursue the
consequences of the contrary hypothesis and attempt to connect the
slivers of data available with logical deduction and physical
scientific analysis.

Specifically, if there is something being sprayed on a large scale and
in secret, what is the purpose?

Logic leads me to reject ``biological warfare'' or similar sorts of
arguments.

*) The reported patterns of `spraying' are contradictory to those that
would best accomplish such an insidious task. They supposedly occur
at high altitude and in daylight. This would be a highly ineffective
method of targeting population centers, as most of the agent would be
dispersed into unpopulated regions. Given the expense and difficulty
of such a thing, the waste would be unacceptable. Reports of strands
also seem very odd to be a biological delivery system.

*) the motivations of a military conspiracy do not fit. This would be
a major operation costing significant amounts of money---many people
would have to be involved. It would be impossible to convince all of
them to keep quiet over something that is intentionally designed to
harm our own population, including their families. The military
mindset may be authoritarian, rigid and unyielding to criticism and
dismissive of civil liberties, but it is generally motivated in the
large by authentic patriotism. For example, the Manhattan Project was
successfully kept secret despite a huge effort, however, at least a
few dozen to hundreds of top people knew the overall purpose and
means. It would have not been successful unless all of them were
fully and honestly dedicated to its goals. And they were. A worse
example might be the Vietnam War, however, even then, it was a stupid
warmongering policy motivated out of authentic patriotic
anti-communism, and as history has proven, communists really were bad
and evil.

A ``Dr Evil'' scenario is illogical.

If there is some sort of atmospheric modifcation program, it must be deemed
with all intent (though it could easily be highly reckless) for the good of
the nation.

If there are adverse health effects, it is more probable they are unintended
consequences.

Now, on to physics and quasi-rumor-physics.

The one keyword that struck this Vulcan was the mention of Barium Titanate
as a potential chemical being sprayed.

The significant thing about BaTiO3 is that, at least when it is in
solid form in crystals, it is a highly effective electrical
dielectric. This means it can greatly increase the capacitance of two
plates when placed between a voltage. I.e. more charge separation for
the same voltage drop (electric field strength). This is because it
is a 'ferroelectric' material that if made properly can hold a
permanent electrical polarization, just as ferromagnets can hold a
permanent magnetic polarization. It and related compounds have been
the subject of significant and completely normal scientific
investigation for semiconductor and other solid state devices for its
scientific and engineering interest.

The dielectric constant of bulk BaTi03 is maybe 1500 times that of air
or vacuum, obviously a major change. {it is impossible to lower the
dielectric to below '1', the vacuum level, and standard air is only
slightly above 1}. If dispersed into the air in particles though, BaTiO3
may be able to change the overall dielectric constant of the air by a
modest to reasonable amount as it is such a good dielectric on its
own.

Assuming the intent of the spraying is dielectric modification, what
could possibly be the motivation?

Let us explore possible hypotheses.

1) 'optical stealth' experiments.

Changing the dielectric constant means changing the index of
refraction (as that's what a lens does) and if you do this in the air
perhaps you can cause optical effects to hide an aircraft.

However, this does not hold up to analysis. Firstly, BaTiO3 is only
an excellent dielectric when it is nearby other atoms of its kind as
the polarization is a crystal solid state effect. So it has to be in
solid particles to work, but then the dielectric change would only be
'in bulk' for wavelengths larger than the typical particle separation,
which would not be true for optical frequencies. The dielectric
effect would have to be at lower frequencies.

In any case, there would have been major visible optical effects plain
to any observer from this. This hasn't been seen.

2) stealth technology defense.

Now this is getting somewhat more plausible. Suppose you were trying
to detect a craft that had a negligible direct radar signature. What
can you do? One way is to try to detect the effect that the craft has
on the atmosphere as it flies through it. Stealth planes try to have
very low thermal cross sections and intentionally suppress their
contrails with chemicals, but at some point there has to be some
atmospheric disturbance if they want to fly fast.

It may be that adding a dielectric, which may have complex frequency
dependent properties to enable radar identification, could make the
atmosphere or disturbances inside it ``visible'' or at least
measurable to active radar.

Then if you see a 'wake' without any commercial or known plane causing it,
you may have found a stealth plane.

Also there can be complex mechanical forces in electric fields when there are
dielectric gradients as well.

3) ``By the pricking of my thumbs, something Wicked this way comes.''

This is now the most extreme and speculative hypothesis.

There has been an undercurrent of vague connections between high
voltage and high-charge electric fields and 'UFOs', from the reports
of UFOs causing electrical disturbances in equipment, ozone-like
smells, and the reports of old inventors (TT Brown) who supposedly
found odd non-standard physics with very high voltage systems. I am
not at all convinced any of this is true, but suppose that it were so.

Suppose that there is in fact some new physical phenomena that is not
part of present known physics that occurs in very high intensity
electric fields, and that this is used somehow by ET visitors in their
propulsion systems. It would be logical to suppose that this effect
may be nonlinear in the electric field strength, at least quadratic
with electric energy density |E|^2 or perhaps even higher powers
thereof, because linear or low order effects should have been observed
by humans already.

Now what would an atmosphere with a higher dielectric do?

Or more specifically, what if you had a craft that made a very high
field, i.e. a very large charge separation that caused a strong E
field that was responsible for its propulsion (one presumes a dipole
arrangement), which then flew *into* a region of higher dielectric.

What would happen is that the strength of the overall electric field
lines that extended outside the craft would decrease, because they
would be counteracted by the polarization inside the
dielectric. (That's how dielectrics work). If the novel physics of
the device is proportional to a significant power of the electric
field, then the dielectric might 'poison' it, rather like a neutron
absorber in a nuclear reactor.

If the alien propulsion technology required significant E fields to
extend past the craft, the layers of altered dielectric atmosphere
might be viewed as 'electrostatic turbulence' when flying through it,
which could cause a loss of stability or control. At a minimum, the
craft might be required to start expending significant energy to
charge back up its field strength to nominal levels, energy which is
being dumped into the path of the polarization of the dielectric
particles or fibers it is flying through. The mechanical forces of a
strong E field on the dielectric might also be significant,
i.e. causing air currents that could impair the flight stability.

Again, perhaps also a detection opportunity.

If this were all true, and the military is going to the effort and
danger of even subverting commercial civilian planes to emit this,
over broad swaths of airspace, at great expense, and at perhaps
signifcant harm to the health of the population, what could be the
reason?

As I feel that world-domination-Illuminati conspiracies are not feasible,
logic leads to but one:

Imminent Alien Invasion.

If this were so, Sarek suggests some actions.

1) Call your Senator and Representative and urge them to vote for the
National ``Missile'' Defense, even though the official rationales are
very flimsy.

official rationale:

Defense against a few missles from a rogue state? Ridiculous, as we
successfully deterred against a much more formidable missle force from
the USSR. Any rogue state doing a launch would be incinerated within
the hour. Also, the NMD emphasis on terminal phase interception is
seemingly stupid, as it is much harder to hit a small ballistic
warhead than it is to intercept a large bright rocket on its boost
phase. Missle launches are naked-eye visible and bright for hundreds
of miles.


2) Immediately stop any and all 'chemtrail' activism and exposes, as
that could turn out to be inadvertent and disasterous *treason*.

The secrecy and security might not be directed primarily at *us*.

3) Turn up your air filters to max, stock up on your breathing masks,
and take your vitamins.

4) Pray hard for the Boys and Girls in Blue, because they might just
be our last, best, hope for victory.

5) Remember what the Aztecs thought about Cortez.

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Thermit
Tech


Houston, TX
2733 posts, Jul 2000

posted 02-09-2001 06:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Thermit   Visit Thermit's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks sarek, that was most amusing.

I am inspired to add this....

quote:


Cortez The Killer
by Neil Young

He came dancing across the water
With his galleons and guns
Looking for the new world
In that palace in the sun
On the shore lay Montezuma
With his coca leaves and pearls
In his halls he often wandered
With the secrets of the worlds.

And his subjects gathered 'round him
Like the leaves around a tree
In their clothes of many colors
For the angry gods to see.

And the women all were beautiful
And the men stood straight and strong
They offered life in sacrifice
So that others could go on.

Hate was just a legend
And war was never known
The people worked together
And they lifted many stones

They carried them to the flatlands
And they died along the way
But they built up with their bare hands
What we still can't do today.

And I know she's living there
And she loves me to this day
I still can't remember when
Or how I lost my way.

He came dancing across the water
Cortez, Cortez
What a killer.


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sedona
Senior Member

Sedona, AZ 86339
149 posts, Oct 2000

posted 02-09-2001 11:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sedona     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So your theory is that we moronic and child-like citizens, far too irresponsible to be informed of any threat to our world, must instead abjectly pray to the dear old USAF to save us covertly? No thanks. And who among us would like such a candy-coated posion pill to be swallowed by the unwary, pray tell?

I wouldn't care to be "saved", even from a theoretical "alien invasion", by an arrogantly totalitarian secret government operation. The USAF is directly subverting the Constitution, like the rest of this so-called government. Now *this* is a real and present danger. Obviously, alien mentality has been in charge for quite a while now. That would be you too, would it?

Nice try: you get points for amusing creativity. Your actual message however remains unacceptable. Do give my regards to Col. Gibson and tell him I meant to write, but I've been busy.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by sedona on 02-09-2001]

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David
Chemtrail Information Agent


1290 posts, Oct 2000

posted 02-10-2001 10:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for David     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"Firstly, I must say that the evidence for existence of 'chemtrails' is
as yet unconvincing to me. The pictures look like nothing but contrails."

Nice try but same old crap different name.

2)" Immediately stop any and all 'chemtrail' activism and exposes, as
that could turn out to be inadvertent and disasterous *treason*. "

This statemnet is an insult to all who participate in this "chemtrail activism".

AND ON A PERSONAL NOTE SIR. TO EVEN SUGGEST THAT ENGAGING IN THIS IS AN ACT OF TREASON IS THE MOST INSULTING THING A PERSON HAS EVER SAID ON THIS BOARD.

[Edited 2 times, lastly by David on 02-10-2001]

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David
Chemtrail Information Agent


1290 posts, Oct 2000

posted 02-10-2001 10:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for David     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry Thermit but this "person" really struck a raw nerve with me.

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Sore Throat
Senior Member

x
736 posts, Sep 2000

posted 02-10-2001 11:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sore Throat     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sarek says: "If there is some sort of atmospheric modifcation program, it must be deemed with all intent (though it could easily be highly reckless) for the good of
the nation.

If there are adverse health effects, it is more probable they are unintended
consequences."
============================================
It's amazing how little time this self proclaimed "physicist" spends addressing this aspect of the ChemTrail issue. Surely this deserved more attention than simply proclaiming that good intents may be having "unintended consequences".

Has it ever occurred to Sarek that if the population was honestly informed of what is going on, there might actually be precautions that individuals and/or the medical establishment could take to minimize such unintended consequences?

To knowingly continue the massive coverup only further emphasizes the criminal nature of this operation. Why must lives be sacrificed for the purpose of maintaining a poorly concealed "secret"? Just who is guilty of treason? What oaths are being broken?

I believe that the true treason is by those unwilling to take a stand when they feel their country is in peril. Absent ANY information as to the true intent of ChemTrials, I will continue to proceed with the conviction that they are a THREAT to the well being of this nation.


Sarek the "physicist" did not address the issue of using barium for both scrubbing ozone depleting chlorine from the atmosphere, and also acting as Welsbach reflective particles to reduce the rate of global warming.

I wonder why?

For Sarek's edification, I attach previous discussions of this chemistry:


If you dispersed metallic barium (stored in kerosine...jet fuel) instead of aluminum oxide, when the barium reacted in the atmosphere it might form a barium chloride salt, removing an ozone depleting catalyst, or if it simply oxidized would it also serve as an appropriate Welsbach material?

Two for one...more bang for buck.



[Edited 2 times, lastly by Sore Throat on 02-10-2001]

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mark sky
bin Rydin


SW coast of Oregon
1089 posts, Jun 2001

posted 02-10-2001 03:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mark sky     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
NICE TRY SARAK and I quote your openning two sentences
"I am a physicist, but not professionally involved in any of this thing
directly.
Firstly, I must say that the evidence for existence of 'chemtrails' is
as yet unconvincing to me. The pictures look like nothing but contrails."



[Edited 1 times, lastly by mark sky on 02-10-2001]

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WiseQuakker
Senior Member


Mt. Vernon, WA, USA
141 posts, Aug 2000

posted 02-11-2001 11:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for WiseQuakker   Visit WiseQuakker's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Vulgarian or not... If one more entity calls this a “normal” contrail, I’m gonna barf.

We’re looking at a whole new generation of “downwinders”...

Wanna see treason...??? Where were you when Klinton was over there in Asia giving away our defense secrets...???
______________________________________

"When walking amongst predators, never lose awareness of your surroundings. By itself, science tells us what should be. Only tempered with clinical observation and common sense, does it tell us what really is......"
— The Quakk

[Edited 2 times, lastly by WiseQuakker on 02-12-2001]

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mark sky
bin Rydin


SW coast of Oregon
1089 posts, Jun 2001

posted 02-11-2001 04:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mark sky     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
so sarek {sorry i spelled your name wreong}
you must think that aleigns are ReAllY duMb
perhaps their whole intelligence gathering
machine is from chemtrail sites?
well since there are only normal lines in the sky they will NeVer eVer See
the sneeky way the military here
has blinded them
God they are stupid aliens!

imagine (God i hate that marketing ploy "imagine"
so don't "imagine" that this will make you rich and sexually attractive,,,
no, just look up at the sun and the moon
do they seem closer than they ever did before?
OK now you can "image~in"
we have seen lately where they are talking openly of both terraforming other planets AND pulling planets around with very little effort
so now, say you pulled this planet closer to the sun and the moon in tighter orbit
but then you masked the resultant heat with sunlight reflective sprays
it would of course upset the raincycle
as MoThErsNatures evapotranspirational cycles would get all out of fluster
but you could blaim Mr. El Ninyo and MS. Lah Ninyah
and there company Global Warming INC.
and if that was naught enough you could always drag
bin Laudin into the fray...
or maybe timothy mCvay?

pulled the planet into an orbit you found better suited
to your kind
while masking both the minds of your victims
and the full change of the planetary climate
you could turn off the spray and realize
the full benefit of your work

if one was really whiley~ they could even get you to not only pay for it but also do it for them

but i forgot, anyone smart enought to get to this planet would be, shall we say "benevolent"
just like the europeans were when they came opon the shores of north america a few years ago?

reast ass~URERED that those pesky aligns are
winging off to some sane planet
where janet reno keeps megacorp~O~rations
from rolling in blackout profits
OK?

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WiseQuakker
Senior Member


Mt. Vernon, WA, USA
141 posts, Aug 2000

posted 02-11-2001 08:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for WiseQuakker   Visit WiseQuakker's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
“Sarek” [with apologies to the late Mark Lenard] says, “If there is some sort of atmospheric modifcation program, it must be deemed with all intent (though it could easily be highly reckless) for the good of the nation.

“If there are adverse health effects, it is more probable they are unintended consequences.”

Tell it to the downwinders... I’m sure it will make them feel sooooooo much better... as it would the relatives of all who have died of respiratory illness in the last couple years or so......
____________________________________

"When walking amongst predators, never lose awareness of your surroundings. By itself, science tells us what should be. Only tempered with clinical observation and common sense, does it tell us what really is......"
— The Quakk


[Edited 1 times, lastly by WiseQuakker on 02-11-2001]

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sarek
New Member


2 posts, Feb 2001

posted 02-12-2001 02:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sarek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It is unfortunate that most of the responses have been excessively emotional.

If this phenomenon is real and serious, people ought to logically investigate and consider all scenarios, especially those that are different from one's assumptions and biases.

If, in fact, there is a potential threat then the hypothesized actions taken may easily be explicitly Constitutionally authorized. Since, for instance, military conscription is legal, there is no intrinsic right to be free from harm imposed by the US Government in efforts to defend the nation.

It may not be very pleasant, but it may be reality.

The apparent assumption that human military authorities would necessarily care less for our citizenry's best interests compared to extraterrestrial beings is exceedingly naive. This is why I mentioned Cortez. The Aztecs believed he was a diety at first.

Notice that we do not have any diplomatic relations with extraterrestrials. If they are coming here, then this fact is entirely their fault, and our concern of their motives justified.


I do not understand the questions about the ozone. Please elaborate.

The ozone destruction happens because of catalytic actions of very long-lasting chemicals in the stratosphere in polar regions in certain conditions when ice crystals form. If the authorities are attempting to execute some secret plan to fix this problem, it makes little sense at first glance to emit chemicals in the troposphere in mid-latitudes. You would go to where the problem is, which is at the poles.

It seems unlikely to me that the military would be inclined to voluntarily embark on some secret environmental mission. They have been complaining already about excessive 'humanitarian' deployments and doing things outside their core mandate.

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WiseQuakker
Senior Member


Mt. Vernon, WA, USA
141 posts, Aug 2000

posted 02-12-2001 06:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for WiseQuakker   Visit WiseQuakker's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
“Sarek” -

Your use of the term “excessively emotional” is excessively subjective. To deny one’s emotions is to deny one’s own humanity. You make an extremely solid case for what is so terribly wrong with any scientific “peer” group “in charge” of the community today. Your patterns of thought also give rise to some mighty strong arguments against our “elected” officials whose goals are to remove firearms from private ownership.

How “potential” does a threat have to be before there can exist an explicitly authorized Constitutional sacrifice of the citizens, which that document is designed to protect? Such decision-making power left in the hands of those who would callously commit traitorous acts, as did Clinton in his passing along our defense secrets to the Asians (worth repeating), is a sickening joke.

In light of the cold intellectual reasoning with which you justify criminal acts of negligence on the part of our Department of Defense (if that’s who they really are underneath) and/or others, I strongly suggest that you begin lining up members of your own family so that they will be among the first to end up as “unfortunate” casualties. They shouldn’t mind too much having you as their spokesman, eh…???

Personally, I have twice been physically attacked on my own property, in retaliation for speaking out on the subject of strange aerial activity, and I am no less pissed off about it a year and a half afterward. Add to that the death of one of my family pets and you are witness to some real cowardly bastards out there. Oh, I forgot…… There’s that “national security” rub again……

http://homepages.go.com/~solitary_man/documents/Chemtrail_Attack.htm
_______________________________________

"When walking amongst predators, never lose awareness of your surroundings. By itself, science tells us what should be. Only tempered with clinical observation and common sense, does it tell us what really is......"
— The Quakk


[Edited 2 times, lastly by WiseQuakker on 02-12-2001]

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Sore Throat
Senior Member

x
736 posts, Sep 2000

posted 02-12-2001 10:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sore Throat     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Being a self-professed Vulcan, Sarek, you may be unaware of the following:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."


I'm curious just where you find the justification for a "Constitutional sacrifice of the citizens"?

Let me repeat a key phrase from above:

"deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed".

Just how can this consent be reasonable, or LOGICAL, if the governed are not informed?

Have at it, alien.

[Edited 2 times, lastly by Sore Throat on 02-12-2001]

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Moose
Senior Member

Fargo, ND
24 posts, Jan 2001

posted 02-13-2001 08:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moose     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Poor Sarek...he's out of his Vulcan mind...

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defender
TELEVISION IS MIND CONTROL


Level 64
1115 posts, Oct 2000

posted 02-13-2001 10:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for defender     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey, I thought I was the designated resident "Bones" McCoy specialist here?

"Damn it Jim...."


p.s.; sarek IS out of his Vulcan' mind.

Too bad we can't use the Enterprises' tractor beams to yank those chemplanes out of (or into?) orbit... Or some photon torpedoes and phasers set to 'kill'!

Unless of course, they're only modifying the weather?

Seriously though, WQ & ST, I agree with your posts %100! [I don't think they have a Bill of Rights on Vulcan...seems like it's under attack here too, like the Constitution!]

[Edited 5 times, lastly by defender on 02-15-2001]

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