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Author
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Topic: Just birds carried aloft on thermals…… | Topic page views:
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WiseQuakker
Senior Member
Mt. Vernon, WA, USA
141 posts, Aug 2000
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posted 03-06-2001 04:46 AM
   
Or so the On Duty Officer at NAS Whidbey Island told me on Saturday, October 16, 1999 when I reported seeing one of their EA-6B Prowlers leaving a “contrail” at not more than 10,000 feet above sea level over south Mt. Vernon. I wasn’t packing my camera that day, but I did grab the coffee shop clerk and we both watched in amazement as the plane streaked across the sky. Had it been at airline cruising altitude, there would most certainly have been heard a sonic boom. One week later, my pet rabbits and I were out on my back deck and we were gassed with some type of eye/sinus irritant only two hours after I finished talking about that sighting on live national radio. Maybe it was my mention of all those “funny” ship smoke stack tracks visible on satellite images that was the icing on the cake. Regardless, it would appear that I had pissed off someone and had received a “friendly” warning about my curiosity.A couple of weeks ago, I was walking along the revetment in old downtown and once again I was treated to the sight of a Prowler laying down another “contrail” at mid-altitude. It wasn’t smoke and it wasn’t fuel being dumped from the plane. I know the difference. What it did exhibit was the same billowy turbulence displayed by so many of the chemtrails we are all so used to seeing spread about over the last two or more years. This puffiness in appearance is the best evidence that what we are looking at are water droplets, not ice crystals. Once settled behind the planes, such trails never do reach a wispiness in form. This time, I did have a camera with me and I was able to take a series of four separate photographs. At 300mm, it is clear that whatever was being trailed was emitted from the wing tips and not from the engines. In photo #3, the port side discharge is seen to have ceased, only to be fired up again in the final image. The links above each image will take you to the corresponding full frame uploads. http://home1.gte.net/quakker/Images/EA6B-1_640x428.gif
http://home1.gte.net/quakker/Images/EA6B-2_637x428.gif
http://home1.gte.net/quakker/Images/EA6B-3_640x429.gif
http://home1.gte.net/quakker/Images/EA6B-4_640x429.gif
EA-6B over Deception Pass, Washington:
http://www.naswi.navy.mil/images/aircraft/bridge.jpg
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"When walking amongst predators, never lose awareness of your surroundings. By itself, science tells us
what should be. Only tempered with clinical observation and common sense, does it tell us what really
is......"
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Dick Eastman
Senior Member
Yakima, Washington, USA
33 posts, Feb 2001
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posted 03-06-2001 01:34 PM
WiseQuakker's surmize of intimidation is
credible to me. How about 19 army helicopters flying low exactly east to west
right over one's house in 1998 as
described to newsgroups at the time.
(No such maneuvers have ever been conducted
over residential section in my 12 years
here; although the Army "firing range"
is near by.)
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Thermit
Tech
Houston, TX
2733 posts, Jul 2000
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posted 03-06-2001 04:55 PM
Submitted by LTC8K6: quote:
Don's prowler photos are wingtip vortex trails. These can form at any altitude. They often form off of the rear wings of race cars on humid days. They can alternate left and right due to wing settings or banking maneuvers.
The photo ... gives a spectacular example of two types of lift-generated condensation on an RAF Tornado. The wing tip vortices are clearly visible as well as the low pressure region above the wing. It appears that the Tornado is pulling up out of a dive during the 1998 International Air Tattoo.
http://www.eng.vt.edu/fluids/msc/gallery/vortex/raf_wt.htm
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Thermit
Tech
Houston, TX
2733 posts, Jul 2000
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posted 03-06-2001 04:59 PM
WiseQuakker, how long did this trail persist?
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WiseQuakker
Senior Member
Mt. Vernon, WA, USA
141 posts, Aug 2000
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posted 03-07-2001 02:40 AM
Thermit, I’m glad you asked that. It’s the same question I will pose to the debunker regarding his RAF Tornado pic. How far behind the plane did the trail extend before it evaporated? Moreover, perhaps K-6 would like to tell us the last time anyone saw a race car leave a visible wake that would stretch hundreds of times its own length back down the track (burned valves do not count……).As far as the EA-6B Prowler was concerned, it’s trail remained suspended for at least ten minutes before the last remnants dispersed. The date-time stamps on the first two photographs in my series of images read “20 10:33”; the last two show “20 10:34”. Between the second and third shots, from where I was taking photographs, the aircraft passed almost directly in front of the solar disk. Observe the following sky chart where I have plotted the approximate path taken by the Prowler as it put on its show. The image posted beyond that shows the precise location from where the Prowler photographs were made. http://home1.gte.net/quakker/images/EA6B_skyplot.gif
 http://home1.gte.net/quakker/images/Revetment_640x428.jpg
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"When walking amongst predators, never lose awareness of your surroundings. By itself, science tells us what should be. Only tempered with clinical observation and common sense, does it tell us what really is......"
[Edited 4 times, lastly by WiseQuakker on 03-08-2001]
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Thermit
Tech
Houston, TX
2733 posts, Jul 2000
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posted 03-07-2001 03:33 PM
Thanks WiseQuakker.My thoughts on this are mainly the result of what I've observed in my reasearch with Flight Explorer. What I've found is that the contrails, from flights that can be observed on the tool, are typically less than 30 seconds, but sometimes as much as 25 minutes of persistence. I've also found that the highly-persistent trails, known as Chemtrails, come from flights that don't show up on Flight Explorer at all. So if a trail tends to disappate in less than an hour (in my area) I figure it is probably just a normal contrail. If it lasts for hours and hours, I figure it is a Chemtrail. These are generalizations for my area based on dozens of measurements and hundreds of hours of reasearch. Based on these generalizations and taking the leap of applying them to your area, I would conclude that your Prowler pictures are wingtip vortex contrails since you indicate that they persisted for about 10 minutes. Also, a Prowler, doesn't seem to me to be ideally suited to the task of any significant spraying due to it's rather small size. Although I think that the Prowler has the capability of carrying external fuel, which theoretically could be converted to carry some other substance for dispersal. That being said, I still find the pictures fascinating, particularly the one wing trail. Even though I know that there are variables that could vary the trailing from each wingtip, I find the extreme difference between the trailing wing and the non-trailing wing in the 3rd photo to be very stark. Additionally, for a vortex trail, 10 minutes seems quite long, but I don't have any experience with them to judge... I am interested to hear your thoughts on this, based on my comments.
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cydoniaquest
nobody
nowhere
803 posts, Aug 2000
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posted 03-08-2001 01:47 AM
Hi Thermit,I had some thoughts on this I just got done posting over at Chemtrail and CO. I was thinking that there would be a corkscrew effect in real vortices, but judging by the photo that LTC submitted, apparently the rotation is so tight off the sharply tapered wings of a fighter aircraft, that it looks continuous. (Coming off of a heavier aircraft we would see the actual rotation of the vortices if it were visible). But notice that the aircraft pictured in LTC's photo is in a high G maneuver, in a condition of high induced lift (conditions in which the most severe vortices are produced). I wonder if WiseQuakker was able to tell if the aircraft he witnessed was in any kind of a high G maneuver like a pull-up from a dive. If not, those just do not seem to me to be vortices.....but then....LTC's photo comes as a shock to me as well. I’m not very up on military aircraft, but doesn't the E6B Prowler specialize in electronic warfare, radar jamming and the like? If so, then to my way of thinking, it would makes sense for this kind of aircraft to have some limited capability of laying down chemtrails....if you subscribe to my theory that chemtrails are used to reflect radar and EMP energy. I know that myself and others have also put forth the theory that the substance which produces chemtrails may possible be stored in a highly compressed way like the liquid in a can of shaving cream. Once it hits the air, it could expand to many many times its original volume. This type of compact storage ability, might give smaller aircraft the capability of spraying as well.
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WiseQuakker
Senior Member
Mt. Vernon, WA, USA
141 posts, Aug 2000
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posted 03-08-2001 06:34 AM
Yes Thermit, you’re doing the research all right and you can just bet that your efforts will go completely “unnoticed” by those on the debunk squad anytime the mainstream press calls on them for a statement of any kind. This type of irresponsible journalism is clearly evident in the USA Today feature “Conspiracy theorists read between lines in the sky”, at http://usatoday.com/usatonline/20010307/3117139s.htm . Among other things, they don’t even know the difference between a “conspiracy” and a “cover-up”. There is a difference, you know.I’m sure that the “voices of science and reason” also know that there is a fundamental difference between a vapor condensation trail that is created in a wingtip vortex and one that is given rise to by jet aircraft exhaust. There is absolutely no addition of water vapor to the atmosphere in the case of wingtip vortices. Where would it come from? The partial vacuum inside of the vortex itself is the sole mechanism. The same holds true for all you see along the trailing edge of the wing. As a result, any “contrails” produced in this fashion are going to be very short-lived - on the order of seconds, not minutes or hours. Think about it… We’re getting BS’d again. From the kind of activity I've been seeing around here, my guess is that the small aircraft are being used to test some type of delivery system. In answer to Cydonia’s question -The only chance for unusually high-G forces to have been experienced by the EA-6B’s crew during the time of my observations would have been seen in frame #1, where the aircraft was banked hard over as it changed heading in a hurry. Other than that, the Prowler remained in level flight during its entire pass over the Mt. Vernon area.
________________________________________________________________
"When walking amongst predators, never lose awareness of your surroundings. By itself, science tells us what should be. Only tempered with clinical observation and common sense, does it tell us what really is......"
[Edited 3 times, lastly by WiseQuakker on 03-08-2001]
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cydoniaquest
nobody
nowhere
803 posts, Aug 2000
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posted 03-08-2001 10:28 AM
Thanks WiseQuakker....that's why I don't see any other possibility for these things than being a spray of some type. First, you say the "vortices" were seen in straight and level flight. Secondly, you'll note that the engines aren't producing contrails! If the conditions were humid enough to produce wingtip vortices, which like you say, add no moisture to the atmosphere, then why wouldn't those same conditions allow for the production of contrails from the engines which do add moisture? The only thing that makes sense to me is spraying.
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3T3L1
Differentiated Mouse Fibroblasts
Lubbock, Texas
1347 posts, Mar 2001
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posted 03-08-2001 02:46 PM
I agree, but I do have a question. In LTC's picture, I don't think I see contrails off the engines, either. Thermit, do you know what would explain that?
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Thermit
Tech
Houston, TX
2733 posts, Jul 2000
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posted 03-08-2001 03:09 PM
3T3L1,That is a good question. I did notice that most of these wingtip trail pictures mention that the aircraft shown is performing some high-G maneuvers. It seems that these wingtip trails are not as much a simple function of general atmosperic temperature and humidity (in constrast to most contrails), and more a result of extreme pressure differences created as the wing tip slices through the air.
Here's another picture:
quote:
VIZUALIZATION OF VORTICES BY CONDENSATION
The reason that vortices can be visualized by condensation is due to the fact that the vortex core is a region of low pressure. This lowering of pressure can be understood by considering the fluid mechanist's trusty tool, the Bernoulli equation. When a strong vortex is formed, say at a wing tip, the swirl component of the velocity causes the velocities to become considerably larger than the surrounding flow. In the latter regions, the flow speeds are still on the order of (or even approximately equal to) those of the freestream. According to the steady state Bernoulli equation, the pressures should become very small within the vortex. In many cases of interest, the flow density is approximately constant and the temperatures must also drop well below those of the surrounding flow. If the ambient air is sufficiently humid, the low pressures and temperatures will cause the water vapor to condense, forming a "cloud" in the low pressure vortex. The cores of the vortices are frequently seen to be "empty". This is the dark region in the center of the vortex seen in the above photo. (You may need to look at the full-size version.) The most likely reason is that centrifugal effects tend to throw the droplets away from the center. In many cases, no condensation will be seen if the aircraft is in steady, level flight. It is only when the pilot cranks the plane into a high-g maneuver that the lift increases to the point where condensation can occur. The condensation therefore gives us a "time-accurate" monitor of the lift variation. In aeronautical applications, such lift-generated vortices are often accompanied by condensation over the wings...
http://www.eng.vt.edu/fluids/msc/gallery/conden/c_words.htm
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Thermit on 03-08-2001]
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Thermit
Tech
Houston, TX
2733 posts, Jul 2000
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posted 03-08-2001 03:21 PM
Here's a commerical jet exhibiting both, notice the wingtip trails are more distinct than the contrails.
Oops, those aren't wingtip trails, they are smoke generators...
quote:
LIFT-GENERATED VORTICES Whether one is interested in the imaginary bound vortex of elementary airfoil theory, wing tip vortices, strake vortices, or delta wing vortices, vortices play a central role in lifting flows. The main idea of lift is to generate high pressures "below" a solid object and low pressures "above" the object. All real objects are of finite size and the mismatch in pressure very often produces a swirling flow at the edges of the object. This, of course, is the origin of lift-generated vortices
http://www.eng.vt.edu/fluids/msc/gallery/vortex/v_lift.htm
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Thermit on 03-08-2001]
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cydoniaquest
nobody
nowhere
803 posts, Aug 2000
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posted 03-08-2001 04:20 PM
Thermit, I want to point out a couple things. First, when you observe the fighter aircraft images, you'll notice they are in a high G maneuver. It usually takes high induced lift, high angle of attack and high humidity to produce wing tip vortices. But Wise Q does not seem to witness these conditions in his sighting. Notice also the volume of the "vortices" coming from the aircraft in WiseQ's photos and then notice how tight the normal vortices are from the LTC's photo. I will bet you horseshoes to hand grenades that the ones in LTC's photo also dissipate very rapidly....unlike those in WiseQ's photo.Secondly, your last photo of the L-1011 looked to me like smoke and I became suspicious. Notice the left wingtip (our view) does not produce a vortex at the wing tip. I went to your site referenced to investigate and, sure enough, I found that this photo was taken of an experiment that uses smoke to observe vortices that are otherwise invisible.... Here's a quote from the site explaining the photo: "This photo demonstrates the L-1011 with smoke generators operating, to visualize the vortex flows." This one of Wise Q's also seems interesting to me because the "vortex" suddenly seems to emmanate from one wing!
[Edited 1 times, lastly by cydoniaquest on 03-08-2001]
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Thermit
Tech
Houston, TX
2733 posts, Jul 2000
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posted 03-08-2001 04:44 PM
Cy, thanks for correcting me on that last picture. I agree, these tip trails do seem to be associated with high-G moves. The Prowler trails seem a bit long for wing tip trails, although short for typical Chemtrails. It certainly is possible they were experimenting in this case. Although, if so, it definately isn't the typical spray plane.
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Thermit
Tech
Houston, TX
2733 posts, Jul 2000
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posted 03-14-2001 03:10 PM
nice... http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=49408 http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=107069
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cydoniaquest
nobody
nowhere
803 posts, Aug 2000
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posted 03-14-2001 08:24 PM
Notice that both these aircraft are in high angle of attack conditions. (Angle of attack means the angle of inclination of the mean aerodynamic chord of the wing relative to the relative wind.) High angles of attack can cause condensation in humid conditions because the low pressure area on the upper surface of the wing is at a greater extreme in those conditions. They are also on an approach to landing or climb-out which are usually conditions of high angle of attack, and the vortices from the deployed flaps and wingtips are not persistent. I also assume the humidity was very high judging by the greenery of the surrounding terrain (looks like Oregon or Washington). The condensation occurring in the low pressure area above the wing surface is due to extremely high humidity, and is only a temporary condition. It dissipates the second the air passes over the wing. Note also that these vortices should not be confused with “contrails” because they are composed of liquid moisture, not ice crystals.
[Edited 2 times, lastly by cydoniaquest on 03-14-2001]
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