posted 03-19-2001 10:31 PM            

quote:

---

I was just astounded at HOW INCREADABLY FAST these "ships" were moving (15 minutes between shots) these "ships are really moving along.

---

Well, that is a good point. How fast are these "ships" really moving?

I wanted to know so here is what I did.

I counted the number of hours in the sequence. From 10/21 at 16:45 to 10/22 at 00:30 is almost 8 hours. I'll round to 8 hours.

Then I set the loop on the first frame and picked a "ship". I made a little mark on the monitor. Then ran the loop to the last frame and made a second mark. Then I measured the distance on a piece of paper.

I located a pair of landmarks on the coast of an equal length to the distance the "ship" went, then using Yahoo maps, I calculated the actual distance traveled. The result was 120 miles.

120 miles divided by 8 hours =

posted 03-19-2001 11:57 PM            

Please go to the History Channel site and buy the video titled...

"History Undercover,Declassified Human Experimentation"

This documentary is a must have. It covers the spraying of San Francisco in 1950, from SHIPS OFF THE COAST, which resulted in several people hospitalized and one death.

It covers the spraying of Minneapolis and tells how the students were checked in their school by the Army, who used some type of fluorescent light to check their clothing. When this story first broke, the Army admitted the spraying but denied the Fluoroscoping(?). Not until a brave woman convinced other former students to give her written statements accounting of the Army using a light wand to check their clothes, did the Army fianlly admit that this had indeed occured.

It covers the reporter who was researching radiation testing in animals and found a piece that mentioned human testing. She took the info to her editor and he said(paraphrase)"yeah, that's a great story, but we didn't hire you to do stories like that."

The reporter then tells of her 5 years of research before her paper finally ran the story. It appeared on the front page and she expected to be flooded with phone calls from outraged readers the day after the story ran.

SHE DID NOT GET ONE PHONE CALL.

This story probably would have died, but a great thing happened. Hazel O'Leary, mentioned the story during a press conference and she condemmed this testing and used a word like horrified, or a similar word, which got the media's attention.

Well, the story went national and the DOE received thousands of calls from very angry/disgusted/horrified civilians that 12 Veterans, who were not in active service(not that it should matter), were tested in this way. They were injected with plutonium without their knowledge. I have been trying to find the quote on the internet from that Press conference, but I have not been succesful as yet.

After this scandal, Clinton appointed a committee and they investigated many of the radiation experiments. Of course, they did no investigation of the aerial spraying of biological simulants.

After the investigation concluded, Hazel did have this to say................

Then there is the case of the 12 human “guinea pigs” who were secretly injected with radioactive Plutonium 239 and uranium in government experiments in the 1940’s. Energy Secretary Hazel Oleary in announcing the settlement of $4.8 million to be paid to their families said the government was “grateful” to the victims for “the tough lessons they have taught us about trust, responsibility, and accountability between the government and the people.” [END]

The 12 veterans, or their families, were the only ones compensated from all of the victims of radiation testing.

If we were really concerned with chemtrails, shouldn't we be demanding OPEN investigations into all of these aerial sprayings of civilians with biological simulants?

I am pretty sure all of you have read Dr. Cole's Congressional testimony, but let me remind you of this part.......

...."the army began a program in 1949 to assess the nation's vulnerability to attack with biological weapons. During the next 20 years, the army released simulant agents over hundreds of populated areas around the country. Targets included portions of Hawaii and Alaska, San Francisco, St. Louis, Minneapolis, New York City, Washington, D.C., Key West, and many other cities."

["hundreds of populated areas"]

"Indeed, simulants now used at Dugway continue to pose risks. The chemical ethylene oxide, which is present in some of the mixtures used in outdoor spraying, is a known carcinogen. The bacterium Bacillus subtilis, while not generally seen as dangerous, is cited in medical textbooks as able to cause serious infections. In truth any microorganism that seems harmless under some circumstances may cause illness under others." http://personalpages.tds.net/~kknowlto/openair.htm

The Documentary also covers the releasing of spores in the NY Subway, Dr. Cole, who has a couple of segments in the tape, claims he does not believe the spore release caused any illness, or at least, no significant amount of illness, unlike the case of spraying San Francisco.

Hazel O'Leary, also has a good segment, as does the reporter who uncoverd the plutonium injection experiment and the trial lawyer who sued the government over the death of his grandfather, who was the only person to die from the San Francisco spraying. His case made it to the supreme court, but he lost.

I am not saying that I believe chemtrails are related to the spraying of biological simulants. This video is possibly the strongest weapon that can be used to show the sheeple exactly what our government is capable of and what they have been done in the past which has already been proven true.

Anyways, it is a great documentary and every American should watch it at least two, or three times.

If you go to link below and paste in ...

History Undercover eclassified Human Experimentation

........you will get to the order page.
http://store.historychannel.com/

posted 03-20-2001 03:16 PM            

I still wonder at the ship in the middle that was heading east then split, one continued east, one headed back abruptly south west?

So what does one see out there in the ocean when this occures i wonder, a little ship goes by and leaves a long cloud line several miles wide?

posted 03-21-2001 01:53 AM            

I'm of the opinion that nobody should get booted for having a contrary opinion...just as long as they have basic politeness which you obviously have and convey. In my not-so-humble opinion you are a valuable asset to any board for this reason. I realize that you are skeptical of chemtrails, but that's the fun of learning from each other....we all see things in different ways. Without differing views on life....I think things would be boring. That's why I don't understand why, when discussing a controversial subject such as this one...or politics, people can get so emotional and angry over the mere fact that someone has a different opinion. If you really think about it logically, it shouldn't offend any of us that someone would dare to have differing views on the same issue. I have faith that it's possible to disagree without being disagreeable, and I think you've shown this to be possible.

Be that as it may, I've become convinced that something very unusual is happening in our skies. The thing I like to do is not read or listen so much to what other people think about it, because I like to let empirical evidence form my opinion first....Then, after that, I might see what other people have to say, but certainly the propaganda, or what other people are saying does not interfere with the conclusions I've drawn from my own observations.

I get the gist of your post, to mean that you are concerned with the alarmist crowd that has seemed to form around the chemtrail issue. That aspect of the Art Bell show always used to annoy me as well.....because he always seems to emphasize the doom and gloom aspect of things. There is some value of this outlook, however, in that some levels of paranoia keep people alert to corruption among those officials in positions of leadership....and believe me, you'll get absolutely no argument from me that there is profound corruption in government.

A slight level of paranoia in this respect seems to me perfectly healthy, rather than to just buy all the propaganda they want to feed us. For example, Gray Davis, our beloved communist governor here in California, wants us to believe that conservation of electricity among consumers is the best solution to the energy crisis (over building more power plants)....when this entire California energy crisis was caused by inept, corrupt politicians (and I include the former Republican Pete Wilson on that list). They got us into this mess through complete incompetence and concern with their own sorry political hides over long term concerns for American citizens. The effects of corrupt leaders may be particularly evident in California, but its effects are now being felt by the nation as a whole, as we suffer the economic disaster left to us by Clinton administration.......For these reasons, a slight level of paranoia and mistrust of government is always healthy. It's when it gets taken to the point of the extremes that it grows unhealthy....and I think there's a balance somewhere in between. I see where you're coming from in this respect.

At the same time, I've been in a position to really notice what goes on in the skies for quite some time now...as have you, and I can't, for the life of me, remember skies like these filled with such outrageous trails. As a pilot 10 years ago, I never noticed anything like we are seeing today but, at the same time, I think we can come to differing conclusions about what this means. Like you, I've come to the opinion that chemtrails do not cause sickness...but this is based only upon my personal experience in not having been sick with the slightest cold or flu in the last four years, all the while living under some of the most heavily trail laden skies. I imagine someone who has had many colds or flu during this same time period could arrive at differing opinions. For this reason (among others) I have come to take the more positive outlook that chemtrails (If we are to assume they are a spray) are part of a national defense system. At the same time, I am always wary of government projects and expenditures of taxpayer money...especially those covert ones for “our best interest”. Like Rush Limbaugh says....when you see a government guy who knocks on your door and says “We only want to help you” that’s the time to worry, (and maybe load the shotgun)! We have an overwhelming mountain of evidence at this point that they certainly do not have our best interest at heart....so I always keep an open mind to the possibility that chemtrails could be used as a biological weapon. I have become convinced however over time, that this possibility seems more and more remote.

By the way, I have the warmest feelings towards you and your situation Lila, and the highest regards and respect for you. You have written so many kind words to me, and that is the true measure of your character regardless of whether you believe chemtrails exist or not. That aspect (of what opinions we arrive at on a particular issue) is petty if we really think about what counts. I enjoy hearing your opinions regardless of what you believe, because of the respect you have towards others when expressing your opinion.

I hope your doctors are completely wrong by the way. It may sound corny, but despite of all the rotten things that happen to all of us in life, I still believe in miracles. I think your health can turn around. I'm so corny to even believe that the reason I haven't had a cold or flu in the last four years is because one night in a dream, I heard a voice tell me (after a period of several outrageous and lengthy bouts of sickness) that I would never have a cold again. I don't know if that voice came from within my own mind, or from something else, but I do know one thing....I believed it without a doubt, and it became reality. I think it is this power of belief that is the operating factor here more than any thing else. I believe that this can also apply to you too...or anyone else for that matter. (The trick is not to give into the negative belief that you have only eight years, though....or that will work against you!)

In a larger sense, I think we all create self-fulfilling prophecies by what we believe to some extent. That's why part of me echoes your concern...that if we keep alive this doom and gloom aspect to “chemtrails”, and the NWO worry and feelings of helplessness to stop a corrupt government....we may work ourselves into a paranoid frenzy (as you say)...and create self-fulfilling prophecies. Balance is an important thing, and positive beliefs are invaluable.

I wish you the best of health Lila....and further more...I'll do you one better...I BELIEVE you will have good health and live a long life. After all....I should practice what I preach!!

posted 03-21-2001 10:33 AM            

your last post was very well written. i completely agree with your attitude towards people with different opinions than yours. i agree that polite, healthy discussion is very important and that life can be pretty boring otherwise.

you mention that you were a pilot 10 years ago. do you still fly? you stated that you believe something is happening in our skies because of the sheer number of trails compared to 10 years ago. i agree that the number of trails is much greater than 10 years ago. but couldnt an alternative answer be that its because of explosion of commercial aviation over the last 10-15 years because of deregulation? another contributing factor in the number of trails may be in the switch from turboprops to regional jets. these also make up an enormous amount of air traffic.

also, do the trails look different to you than 10 years ago? or do the look the same but there are just more of them?

while i find the subject of chemtrails very interesting and important for numerous reasons, i will be the first to admit that i lean towards the sceptic side. there are enough questions, however, to justify research and investigation. i find all the varying chemtrail theories to be horific and i will be the first to lead the charge if there is any truth to any of them.

in conclusion i do not think that the dramatic increase in trails is proof of chemtrails. i believe that this can be adequately explained by the explosion of airline traffic, regional jet activity and the dramatic increase in the number of private jets.

just my humble opinion

DD

posted 03-21-2001 09:14 PM            

Recently, I have been able to afford to work on getting my flight currency back up to speed on a few weekends, but this does not change the fact that I only began to notice such heavy trails a mere two years ago...It began in the spring of 99, culminating in confirmed suspicions when I sighted a trail descend to ground level in the June of 99. After that point I was convinced that there was definitely something unusual going on. Incidentally, this observation occurred before I first heard William Thomas on Coast to Coast Am with Art Bell.

You surmise that this may be due to an increase of air traffic.....but it is not so much the quantity of aircraft that has changed in my observation as it is the quality of trail. What I remember, are trails that dissipated very quickly behind jet aircraft in the past, but now seem to linger for hours and days, eventually spreading out into vast overcast conditions, and descending into lower levels of strata as a brownish purple haze in the evenings. One would think that improving quality and efficiency of jet engines would lessen the likelihood of chemtrailing and exhausting of particulate matter....but the reverse would seem to be the case if we are to hold to the belief that these are normal contrails. And if they are normal, there is still an issue of concern when you have “normal” contrails turn a crystal clear blue day into overcast on a regular basis. There can be no argument to this observation irrespective of whether you subscribe to the chemtrail theory or not. Whatever these planes are leaving behind, be it ice crystal or chemical, they are occluding otherwise crystal clear skies.....no question about it.

There are also several other unique identifiers that capture my attention and point to anomalous trails, and these have been mentioned many times here on this board. Among these are the unique chemical refractive properties (the rainbow or “oilslick effect”) these trail have on light.

The persistent trails are often seen over areas where no navigation aids or airways or published approach procedures exist.

The way many of these persistent trails are laid down in parallel (sometimes curving parallel lines) by aircraft in apparent formation, also points to military aircraft as Thermit has seemed to confirm with his Flight Explorer observations.

Highly persistent trails occurring in conditions that would otherwise not normally be conducive to their formation is also highly suspicious.

Persistent trails that seem to just cut off as if by a knife and then turn back on again with straight edge precision...leaving a dashed line effect make me wonder how atmospheric conditions could change in such a huge and definite way within the space of a few feet.

No trails at times of peak airport traffic and conditions that would favor them, while many trails in low traffic hours in conditions that would not favor them also make me curious.

These are just a few of the many identifiers that have been talked about on this board......and I haven’t yet heard counter arguments that have convinced me that these observations are normal, when all my experiences, gut feelings, and powers of reasoning are telling me otherwise..

posted 03-21-2001 10:40 PM            

i completely agree with you that being a pilot gives you a unique perspective into this matter. i am also a pilot. how much high level flying have you done?(by the way, i am glad to hear that you are getting back into flying, whether it be for recreation or a job. there is no better job in the world.)
i have been a commercial pilot for several years now, and before that i flew corporate jets, so i spend a lot of time at the high altitudes up close and personal with these things. i personally have yet to see a contrail that i couldnt explain by normal means. what has caught my attention is the number of people who are seeing things that they believe are not normal. if there is something going on then i want to know about it because it directly effects me (my reputation and also possibly my health, not to mention the health of my family). so i am very interested in this.

a couple of points about your last post. you said that you have witnessed a trail descend to ground level. if you have picture or video of this it would be greatly appreciated. i would love to analyze it. one problem that i have had with some of the eyewitness accounts is that no one sees these things actually descend to the ground. what good does it do to spray these chemicals 6 miles above the earth and have them just hang there. your account could be very important.

you also mention the dissipation rate of trails recently compared to several years ago. i can only say that it is possible that there are more non-disipating contrails now, but they have always existed. i believe you probably learned about cirri-form in your private pilot training. but contrails persisting and eventually forming cirrus is a well known phenonona. whether it happens more now than before, i have no idea. but once again i would imagine it does happen more now simply as a function of the increase in traffic. the increase in traffic and therefore contrails also goes a long way in explaining the increase in upper level haze days.

-"The persistent trails are often seen over areas where no navigation aids or airways or published approach procedures exist."

you said that you have been out of flying for the last few years. you may not be aware of the major changes in navigation. almost all airliners and bizjets have fancy INS or at least GPS navigation. there is quite a bit of direct navigation because of this. you can actually navigate to fictional fixes that have no navaid. not to say that VOR's arent used, but things are different than 10 years ago.

you mention parallel lines and formation flying. i believe that this can generally explainged by crossing airways and aircraft at different altitudes. two aircraft travelling the same direction seperated by 2000 ft would appear to be flying in formation by a ground observer.

-"Highly persistent trails occurring in conditions that would otherwise not normally be conducive to their formation is also highly suspicious."

i agree that this important. i would like to see data on this.

as far as off peak hour traffic, nowadays, its always busy. maybe not at your local airport but overhead. the major airports are very busy even at 4:00am because of the dramatic increase in cargo flying, which do a lot of middle of the night flying.

my only point to this is that i do believe that something might be happening (if it is, it is probably some sort of weather modification program. the other theories dont make a lot of since. high altitude dispersal is a very poor method for delivering chemicals) but your points can be explained by normal means. i think you need to eliminate the known and then see what is left over.

hope my long-winded response helped. i look forward to conversing with you and KEEP ON FLYING!!

p.s. how far along have you gotten in your flying?

posted 03-22-2001 02:05 AM            

But flying skills aside, like I said, I don’t claim that being a bugsmasher pilot makes me any more qualified to observe chemtrails (or contrails) than anyone else. But one does tend to notice what goes on in the air more than most. In your situation, I would imagine your in a prime position to observe the trails given the high operating altitudes of the aircraft you fly......When I left the school, GPS was just coming into vogue. They hadn’t renamed the airspace yet and there were still things called ARSAs, TCAs, TRSAs, and Positive controlled airspace...which I found to be cooler terms, by the way, than class ABCD airspace! Oh well..

I hope you will keep commenting on this board because you can probably help Thermit a great deal with his research. I think pilot’s should always be welcome in these types of forums and it amazes me that people like Carnicom have given so many the boot.

You refer to several points....one being my witnessing a trail descend to ground level. This occurred one day while I just happened to be driving from one part of Sacramento to the other, and I was able to see the process from start to finish. I related the story some time ago which Thermit (Mark) placed under the stories section of this board. I didn’t embellish anything though....what I witnessed was absolutely the truth. You could see the trails descending on the horizon towards Sunrise Blvd (where I was heading) and by the time I was on Sunrise, cars were turning on their headlights, in what seemed to be a whitish fog.....and this was in the middle of a warm summer day in June. There were no fires in the area and not even the smell of smoke in the air.....just this white-out haze.

I realize also that there is much direct navigation now-a-days. Even five to ten years ago it was very common to get vectors to the ILS, or VOR/DME circle-to-land approach etc.....And as far as I know, most all major airlines at the time even had INS (Inertial Navigation Systems) some with ring laser gyros, 5 tube EFIS and sophisticated Flight Management Systems.....(although I absolutely agree that direct navigation is more common now that it was then). I remember hearing that the antiquated 1950s VOR system was even supposed to be phased out by year 2000....but no surprises that, given that the FAA is running the show, it’s still around and heavily in use.

Still, over Sacramento, in the terminal approach areas, you would still think there would be heavy reliance by controllers on published approach procedures, and approach plates to ease their work load. Also, I would think the controller’s objective is to get the aircraft from the take off point to his filed route in the most efficient way possible.....yet it’s not uncommon on heavy trail days to see these aircraft go haphazard every which way, sometimes turning sometimes in apparent formation...sometimes doubling back, over areas that would not be used as holding fixes, and rarely on any published approach or departure procedures for Sacramento International. I know because I’ve checked these flights out of curiosity, comparing their paths to the approach plates. Flight Explorer could probably do a better job than my crude estimations based on charts though.

You also refer to my comments of heavy persistent contrails being formed in conditions that they shouldn’t form. Mark (Thermit) has done some research on this, and has charted 105 days of observed data.....but I believe that since he took these measurements in the winter, there weren’t really any temperature conditions in which contrails couldn’t form. He was more focused on the persistence times for contrails not Identified on the Flight Explorer software. These aircraft without identified transponder codes do indeed have highly anomalous contrail persistence times over other aircraft that are identified. Lack of transponder ID codes on Flight Explorer usually indicates military flights....so there is a high probability that these aircraft were military, which is exactly the type of aircraft expected to be spraying. I believe also that Carnicom has a study out which shows persistent contrail formations at temperatures and relative humidity levels that would otherwise make contrail formation impossible....but I haven’t checked this study out yet.

Well I see I’ve been rambling on here, but another point you make that I want to touch on, is a common assumption made by the chemtrail crowd that chemtrails are a form of biological weapons test, or an aerial inoculation designed to be applied from the air. As I’ve mentioned, this scenario seems highly unlikely to me, since I think there would be far easier and more efficient ways for government to do a mass inoculation (such as vaccine placed in drinking water). My theory (as wild as it may sound) is that chemtrails may be a form of EMP defense shield, given our current world situation and the direction we are heading towards electronic EMP warfare and SDI missile defense systems.....but of course, this is only a hypothesis that must yet be proven.

posted 03-22-2001 11:27 AM            

a couple of points regarding your last point.

i agree with you that pilots have a unique perspective about chemtrails. we spend our lives up there. but while i very much respect your opinions and observations, dont you think it is odd that so very few pilots notice anything out of the ordinary?

once again, your observation regarding a chemtrail that fell to the ground is very intrigueing. but there have been very few reports of this. all the observations that i read about on these boards is about persisting trails at high altitudes. your observation would be much more important. as i stated before, what good does it do to spray these chemicals into the atmosphere and just have them linger up there 6 miles above the earth. but, there are precious few sightings and no photos that i know of of an aircraft flying at low altitude and leaving a trail that eventually touches the earth.

-"...over areas that would not be used as holding fixes, and rarely on any published approach or departure procedures for Sacramento International."

my only point to this is that any aircraft on published APP or DEP procedures would be too low to produce contrails.

regarding your flying, dont give up. i was in a similar position. i went to Florida Tech (an aviation school similar to Riddle). became heavily in debt. had to get out of flying for awhile but eventually got back into it.

posted 03-23-2001 08:18 PM            

I know three pilots and they have concluded that your government is conducting aerial spraying. I myself have only 16 hours in a Cessna Skywagon and that makes four.

posted 03-23-2001 11:47 PM            

I don’t necessarily assume chemtrails are intended to reach the ground and make people sick....because my theory is that they have another purpose altogether. Now this is not to say that sickness could possibly be a side affect.....I think this is possible. All I can tell you is what I observed....I wish I had a camera at the time but didn’t. I did notice numerous times last summer seeing chemtrails descend into the horizon and become a purplish low level haze. Depending on where you live, you will probably notice this as well this summer.....and seeing it happen for yourself visually can do much more than any camera ever could. I think we will have many more opportunities to observe this...unfortunately.

You also say: “ my only point to this is that any aircraft on published APP or DEP procedures would be too low to produce contrails.

Excellent point. Contrails would not form at these low altitudes....if they were contrails that is. But I didn’t mean to give the impression that all I used were approach procedure charts. I used these to get an over all feel of the airspace and how controllers might be sequencing aircraft to land...and where they might be set up for step down fixes, and initial approach fixes. But I used these charts in conjunction with sectional charts and high altitude IFR enroute charts. I was attempting to separate approaching and departing aircraft, from aircraft just overflying the airspace, as well as to determine those aircraft that seemed to be off-airway flights. This way I could try to determine if the off-airway traffic laid any more unusual or persistent trails than those aircraft figured to be normal passenger aircraft on canned flight plans and normal airways.

posted 03-24-2001 01:42 PM            

are these 3 pilots the only pilots that you know? how many pilots do you know? i am assuming that you dont know a lot of pilots so its kind of strange that all the pilots that you do know believe in chemtrails. i am not doubting you, its just odd.

i can tell you that i know or have met thousands of pilots and not one has told me that he/she believes in them. well thats not completely true, cy is a pilot had he does.

someone mentioned that pilots wouldnt say that they believe in chemtrails even if they did. well, they may not anounce it to the chief pilot but pilots love to talk and tell "war stories". when you sit next to someone in a small cockpit for many hours you do alot of talking. as a matter of fact since i have become aware of contrails/chemtrails i have been talking alot about it. i also have been observing contrails much more closely. not one pilot of have spoken with thinks that there is anything to it.