posted 08-31-2001 12:34 PM            

no irrelavence there...it was a very revealing talk...old boy....

T/S...you're not listening. Doing too much talking. First you're making bold pronouncements, then asking stupid questions which you could easily answer yourself, then making sly insinuations.

perhaps, but watch your mouth when addressing me....or you can talk to yourself...dig...

btw, and lazy to the mix....50megs free

http://www.stormloader.com/index2.html

T/S

posted 08-31-2001 06:35 PM            

T/S... It's becoming obvious that I am talking to a brick wall. And you have no idea excatly how much I have sacrificed for this initiative. None.

And I am not here for 'personal glory'. I'm here to raise awareness.

I'm not going to waste any more time defending myself from personal attacks, either. There's too much going on. Too much work to be done.

You're were wrong about the fuel dump. You are wrong about what was causing the problems with the video download. One last time....

I HAVE WEBSPACE. IT IS BEING FLOODED BY A DENIAL OF SERVICE ATTACK.

Do you understand? Does that make sense to you? Christ.

I asked your opinion. I got it. And you're hypothesis has been proven incorrect by comparitive analysis of footage from an actual fuel-dump. Deal with it.

This isn't Chickie Deb's, either. And as far as I'm concerned, you are out of the loop. So return to your insult hurling and ill-informed suggestions.

It's what you do best, obviously.

posted 08-31-2001 07:04 PM            

So if you haven't caught the video yet, now's your chance.

posted 08-31-2001 07:19 PM            

70 or 80 requests per hour is a denial of service attack? Puhlleeze. Paranoia at it's finest. Did you ever stop to think that the lurkers here would read your post and try to download the video? And, upon being unable to do so, try more than once apiece? 20 people trying four time each is 80 tries. I'll keep quiet on this, though, and let you run with the story that TPTB doesn't want everybody to see your "proof."

If the picture on this thread is your "comparative analysis" of a fuel dump, then you've got it all wrong. I said that the picture of a KC-135 was running fuel out of it's refueling probe. This is not fuel dumping. Also, a KC-135 can dump fuel at an amazing rate, and can make a trail a lot bigger than the one in the "megasprayer" video. It can also slow it's fuel flow down to a tiny trickle as well. The "megasprayer" picture is probably not fuel dumping, and on this I agree with you. I is probably four contrails from four engines. Even if it were not this, either, it could still be aerodynamic contrails caused by a wing doing some hard work in some humid air. The fact is that this far-off, grainy shot is nowhere near proof, and is VERY explainable. Get over it. Take this to the news media and you'll get laughed right out of the office.

Delphi, I'm a career pilot, with thousands of hours of flight time, most of that in fighter aircraft. I grew up around airplanes and aircraft, and I've been to hundreds of air shows and worked around dozens of types of aircraft. If you were to ask me what altitude an aircraft flying overhead is at, I can guarantee you that I will be off in my guess. Not to belittle you, but if I can't do it accurately, and none of the pilots that I fly with can, then how can I expect for your unaided observations to be any better?

How do you know an aircraft is at 15,000 feet? Could it be at 16,000? Or 14,000? Or 30? Do you know what a 747 looks like at 30,000 when compared to a 737 at 15,000? To answer that, they look very similar in size. Can you ID a 747, period? Or a 737? Can you tell the difference between a KC-10 and an MD-11? Or between a KC-135 and an RC-135?

How high am I in this picture?

Have you compared you observations with a radar scope somewhere, or hear a pilot in the plane say how high he was? How do you know what an aircraft looks like at any altitude?

It has been my experience with folks calling in noise complaints to me that people think that planes are flying a lot lower than they really are. For instance, one particular gentleman in eastern New Mexico whom I've talked to several times repeateldly is pretty far off in his allegations when he call in to complain about us flying over his house. (on a side note, he calls just about every time he hears an aircraft.) Upon talking to the pilots involved (and sometimes reviewing their cockpit tapes,) I find that he always estimates altitude to be a lot lower than we actually are. It has been my experience that I make the same errors myself when guessing an aircraft's altitude.

I suggest that you subscribe to Flight Explorer and test your eyeball's best guess against real, undoctored data. I'm not saying that you are like me and most of the people that I know, but until you verify your guesses then that's all that they are: guesses.

Why would you want Jesus to bite you, anyway?

posted 08-31-2001 07:43 PM            

I doubt the Megasprayer shot is a fuel dump, and correct me if I'm wrong, because it was right over a residential area and it really did not seem very high. I could see the jet pretty well as far as outline and color. I am no expert but it does not seem like afuel dump. The whole clip also shows a weird pulsing quality from the trail. It looks like it is kind of coming out with bursts in there. It was a VERY chemmy day and I do not think for a minute it was a normal anything.

posted 08-31-2001 07:57 PM            

It has been suggested that these latest remarks are simply a new tactic designed to distract attention from the evidence itself. And that I am playing into it by responding to these personal attacks and nonsensical and painfully ignorant arguements.

I think that is probably a pretty clear-headed assessment of the situation. So rather than continue to let some of you folks push my buttons, I am going to push my own. Namely the one that says "eject".

What do I think of your picture, Topgun? I think you look like a stone-cold killer.

Bombs away.

posted 08-31-2001 08:04 PM            

Yep, you figured us out. We had a meeting down at the Agency, and we were told to do just what you are accusing us of doing. Gosh, now on to plan B.

I asked Delphi how high she thought that I was. I didn't ask you how you thought that I looked. Thanks for your opinion, anyway.

How high is my wingman here?

Fox 3

posted 08-31-2001 08:27 PM            

"Topgun? I think you look like a stone-cold killer"

nice chem. you're a moderator, right?

it may not bother TG when your spout crap about him but it sure as hell bothers me. do you want to discuss or argue about contrails/chemtrails or do you want to get into personal attacks? either one is fine with me. i am glad we dont have to rely on the likes of you to defend our freedom. let me ask you chem, what would you like our soldiers to look like. or maybe you just dont want any at all. go back to you little utopian world in your mind and leave reality to the sane among us. the sad part about this is that if God forbid we were invaded you would be crying like a baby under you bed praying for TG and his F-16 to come and make the bad people go away.

i want my warriors to look like stone-cold killers, not pus***s like you.

my father fought in vietnam and had to put up with cowards like you spitting on him when he returned.

posted 08-31-2001 08:59 PM            

Even Robert McNamara admits that Vietnam was a "terrible mistake'. But you, Dirk Digler, remain convinced that those poor kids that got drafted into a surrogate war were fighting for 'our freedom'.

I was talking with a Vietnam vet the other day about agent orange, among other things. He told me if he had it to do over again, he would have gone to jail rather than live with the memories of what he did over there. Believe me, he has a great deal more animosity for the the US military than I do.

Part of the reason that we pulled out of that conflict was the pressure put upon US military personnel by US civilians. I've never spit on anyone Dirk, and never will. But if some soldier had to wipe the phlegm of his uniform in order to save a few hundred or a few thousand human lives, then so be it.

I've known probably a dozen Vietnam vets over the years and not a one of them thought we should have been over there.

Not one.

If you are so enamored with warfare, then quit flapping your gums and sign-up. The service is desperate for recruits. Last time I checked they were talking about upping the enlistment bonus to 40 grand.

As long as you don't mind wearing UN colors and filling out paperwork that asks if you would be willing to fire on un-armed US citizens, you'll be in like Flynn.

posted 08-31-2001 10:38 PM            

WARNING: Submission of this form is precisely traced to its original source. Legal action will be taken if any fraudulent information is submitted. Furthermore, any abuse and illegal activity may also result in federal and/or international law enforcement based on the extent of such actions

give me a break....where's this flood of hits coming from chem ?

And as far as I'm concerned, you are out of the loop. So return to your insult hurling and ill-informed suggestions.

I make my own roads...the one most traveled is not for me....and ill-informed suggestions ? your one to talk chem...you called a plane a mega-sprayer when you have no proof of who it was, when it was, or how it was...ill informed...kiss my red neck ass....

your one to accuse...

and I suggest the next time you give the military hell, you look down and thank God that you stand on free ground because of them....

T/S (never in the loop)

posted 08-31-2001 11:40 PM            

I read the thread. Where did I attack you? Dirk was talking about me, and your reply should also be about me. The Seeker and I are two different people.

"And as far as 'freedom' goes, the numbers don't lie. We live in the most highly incarcerated society, per-capita, in the world. Land of the free?"

Move to China, then. Or, better yet, move to one of the hundred countries in the world that rely upon the USA to protect them and bail them out when they get into a jam. Do you really want to know why a lot of the world's countries have such low incarceration rates? Because punishment is not incarceration, silly. It's beheadings, soccer-stadium firing squads and hangings, mutilation, amputation, or just plain ol' killing. Oh, and minus an attorney, appeals, or even a trial. You'd be begging for jail time overseas, and you'll still share an 8 by 10 foot cell with a dozen of your closest friends.

"Even Robert McNamara admits that Vietnam was a "terrible mistake'."

So will I, and every other person in the military. Our hands were cuffed from the get-go, and the fact that Washington DC had to approve/disapprove virtually every action stuck the military in quicksand. Sending planes up north every day, via the same route, and at the same time made it a rather easy task for the NVN Army to shoot plaes down. And, to make matters worse, politicians' rules made it difficult for US pilots to shoot back and take out the SAM and AAA sites that were shooting at them.

I'm against being the policeman of the world, just as you are against me playing that role. I work with (and fly with, believe it or not) Vietnam veterans every day. These guys are heroes. Not only because of what happened in Vietnam, but because of them dealing with narrowminded cowards afterwards telling them that they are baby killers.

"Part of the reason that we pulled out of that conflict was the pressure put upon US military personnel by US civilians. I've never spit on anyone Dirk, and never will. But if some soldier had to wipe the phlegm of his uniform in order to save a few hundred or a few thousand human lives, then so be it."

Bullshit. You want to stop a war like Vietnam? Spit on the politicians. They are the ones who sent us there. They are the ones who can bring us home. The men and women in the military should not be the targets.

"I've known probably a dozen Vietnam vets over the years and not a one of them thought we should have been over there.

Not one."

Same here.

"If you are so enamored with warfare, then quit flapping your gums and sign-up. The service is desperate for recruits. Last time I checked they were talking about upping the enlistment bonus to 40 grand."

Sign me up again! I haven't seen this money. Until every Airman on base is off of food stamps and every Vet is receiving adequate medical care, then I'll say that we're doing O.K..

I didn't join because I was enamored with warfare. I don't know anybody that has joined for that reason. This statement shows you complete lack of understanding of anything military.

"As long as you don't mind wearing UN colors and filling out paperwork that asks if you would be willing to fire on un-armed US citizens, you'll be in like Flynn."

Here's where Mav's cordial hat comes off.

O.K., asshole, show me where I signed on the dotted line and said that I'd be willing to shoot unarmed US citizens. You'd better put your money where your mouth is on this one. SHOW ME.

If you can't come forth with your proof, then I expect an immediate apology to me, and publicly on this board to the men and women of the military. I won't let this one rest, I assure you. Either show me your proof or apologize.

posted 09-01-2001 12:31 AM            

No, you are not theseeker, but you are doing your damndest to portray me as some raving paranoiac when you are not in full possession of the facts.

Nor am I obliged to spend any more time educating you on information that is freely available in the public domain. The document I am referring is a questionaire that members of the military reported that they had been given to fill out. Do your own research on this topic. I don't take orders.

Lastly, you are in flagrant violation of forum rules. If you can't excercise enough self-control to follow these rules, I suggest you post your comments in a section of the forum where name-calling is permitted.

There is a line, TG0069.I learned long-ago not to associate myself with people who are verbally abusive.

In the words of Colin Powell "The military's job is to kill people and blow things up."
Perhaps this mindset is still neccesary. Perhaps it is not.

But that's your job.

Perhaps Dirk doesn't understand that reality. Perhaps he feels the only way to respond is by hurling insults. I'm not a psychologist. I don't know.

Perhaps you have deeply rooted misgivings about your profession and feel the only way to respond is by hurling insults. I'm not a psychologist. I don't know.

But I have learned that communication with individuals who engage in this type of verbal abuse tends to alter one's own attitudes and behaviour. You lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

Therefore I am no longer interested in communicating with you, Maverick, outside of what may be required by my duties as moderator.

Hence this final communication:

Follow the rules

posted 09-01-2001 01:50 AM            

Show me where I signed on the dotted line and said that I'd be willing to shoot unarmed US citizens. You'd better put your money where your mouth is on this one. SHOW ME.

If you can't come forth with your proof, then I expect an immediate apology to me, and publicly on this board to the men and women of the military. I won't let this one rest, I assure you. Either show me your proof or apologize.

I'm waiting. Passing the buck and telling me to do my own research isn't going to cut it. And then you post a picture of a jet going down in flames and then get all high and mighty about attacks? Go to hell, hypocrite. I expect an apology or for you to substantiate your claims with proof. Anything else is simple b.s., and you are proving to be a master of thet.

posted 09-01-2001 02:12 AM            

http://www.uhuh.com/control/fireciv1.htm

That's the last time, topgun. Learn how to use a search engine.

And the picture was a reference to my comment about 'ejecting' myself from this continuing verbal abuse.

Hopefully this little outburst will save your loved ones from similar abuse. So go ahead, get it out of your system.

According to to PDD 25 you are now subject to foreign command. You may very well be asked to attack Americans. The fact that you are unaware of this and refuse to even take a moment of your time to investigate the situation is quite telling.

How a member of the military could be so completely un-aware of changes in the command and control structure this monumental, that took place over seven years ago, is beyond belief.

posted 09-01-2001 02:33 AM            

"To add a little more realism to this actual, true, real life science fiction occurrence, consider the 100 prison camps for civilians here in America in times of peace. At least one of them is manned by soldiers that can not speak American. Then ask why you seldom, if ever, read or hear about any of this in the mainstream media."

Could it be becuase this is completely untrue? Rense won't even carry this story any more.

"Our Marines were asked if they would fire on Americans. The U. S. military denied asking the question until they had it rammed down their throat."

Where's the source of this information? If it's on the internet, then it must be true. Hardly. Surely there is a more reliable source than this. Heck, just start quoting NSASucks' posts while you're at it.

If this is your proof, then you still owe an apology. I am not going to do your work for you. You make the claim, it's your job to back it up. If you can't, then your claim is irrelevant.

Apologize.

posted 09-01-2001 03:10 AM            

Aopoligize? Apoolgize to the US servicemen that USAF sprayed with toxic chemicals during Vietnam. Apologize to the thousands of innocent women and children that the USAF blew into pieces at the behest of it's corporate masters.

Apologize for your false accusations, your juvenile name-calling, your insulting lack of intelligence. Apologize to the taxpayers of this country who flipped the bill so you could escape the drudgery of having to work a world where wholesale murder is still considered unethical.

Since you're not man enough, I'll do it for you. I apologize for topgun's repeated violations of forum rules. I apologize for the fact that he refuses to acknowledge when he has made a mistake and instead throws up his hands and says "How was I supposed to know that?". I apologize to the men who suffered and died from exposure to Agent Orange.

But I won't apologize for exposing people to the truth of what is happening in this country. The directive is real. Assuming there are people besides Topgun who remain unaware of this development, do the research.

What an incredible waste of time. I'm starting to think that 86'ing Col. Dan. might not have been such a great idea. I'm tired of playing with second string pawns.

Send me somebody.

posted 09-01-2001 03:41 AM            

"Apologize for what?"

That has been stated already, and you still haven't. Instead, you are attacking me and making more uninformed, inflammatory posts about me and the military. Go figure.

"For making an attempt to educate you on something that has been common knowledge for years?"

Educate me? Like about the concentration camps?

Common knowledge? For whom? You live in a very different world than reality.

"You want a flame war?"

No, I want you to put up or shut up. It's really that simple.

"You think I'm making up presidential directives now?"

No. I wonder, though, what this directive has to do with Marines being asked if they would fire on U.S. civilians.

"Apologize? Apoolgize to the US servicemen that USAF sprayed with toxic chemicals during Vietnam. Apologize to the thousands of innocent women and children that the USAF blew into pieces at the behest of it's corporate masters."

I owe nobody an apology for anything. I also noticed that you think that I should apologize for the killing of women and children. Calling me a baby killer, eh? And I am the one allegedly attacking you. Oh, poor, poor Chem11. Here's a phrase for you to edit: NSASucks has raised you well, a$$hole.

"Apologize for your false accusations, your juvenile name-calling, your insulting lack of intelligence."

No. Maybe you should apologize to everyone who reads this for wasting their time. Your hypocrisy is more than obvious.

"Apologize to the taxpayers of this country who flipped the bill so you could escape the drudgery of having to work a world where wholesale murder is still considered unethical."

I'll have to get back to you on this one. I'm too busy killing babies. Thanks, by the way, for footing the bill. I really do have the coolest job. And, next time I'm getting shot at, I'll remember to ask myself why I wanted to "escape the drudgery."

"Since you're not man enough, I'll do it for you. I apologize for topgun's repeated violations of forum rules."

Hmmm. "Not man enough?" This has been the first time that you've asked ME to apologize for anything. You didn't even give me a chance to say no!

Repeated violations of forum rules? Show me. And they had better be "repeated" violations. Also, you'd better go back and edit your posts so you don't look too hypocritical.

"I apologize for the fact that he refuses to acknowledge when he has made a mistake and instead throws up his hands and says "How was I supposed to know that?"."

I made a mistake? How was I supposed to know that?

"I apologize to the men who suffered and died from exposure to Agent Orange."

I'm not responsible for that. And I didn't shoot JFK, either.

"But I won't apologize for exposing people to the truth of what is happening in this country."

I'm not asking you to apologize for that. I'm demanding that you apologize for your post above, or show me the facts. I'm also adding that you apologize for calling me a baby killer. Then, I'll apologize for calling you an A-hole, even though one insult is clearly a lot worse than the other.

Apologize.

posted 09-01-2001 04:10 AM            

Look, I'll take you a step further.

You're a liar.

And I have no intention of doing you the favor of editing your posts. You have your reference. So perhaps somebody learned something from this exchange, after all.

US military personnel are subject to foreign command. Fact.

And I've already 'apologized' profusely. And I meant every word of it.

I shudder for my country when I think that God is just.
- Thomas Jefferson

Beware of the military-industrial complex.
- President Dwight D. Eisenhower

posted 09-01-2001 10:25 AM            

this will be my last word on this subject as i have stated you arent worth my time and TG obviously doesnt need me to defend him.

i mentioned that it was cowards like you who spat upon my father when he returned from vietnam. you then went off on this tangent about whether or not we should have been in vietnam. everyone believes that it was a mistake but that doesnt change the fact that it was the likes of you who treated our soldiers like sh*t when they returned.

i am perfectly clear about the purpose of our military. it exists to defend our freedoms and interests throughout the world (even you unfortunately) and yes this means doing terrible things like killing and breaking things if neccessary. so i take it from your comments that you believe that there shouldnt be any military. or maybe you want your military to go around saving whales and planting gardens. i dont get people like you. are you so dense that you believe that as long as we are nice to everybody, everyone will be nice to us?

everyone wants peace. no one wants war, especially those who wage it. after all, they are the ones risking their lives while you are sipping your latte at starbucks. but if you really want peace and freedom you better be willing to stand firm and hold your ground. you better be willing to look at your enemy and tell him he better think twice. luckily, your family can sleep peacefully tonight because of TG's of this country. luckily your family doesnt have to rely on you to stand up the bad people of this world.

posted 09-01-2001 10:38 AM            

Make love not war
Sounds so absurd to me
We can't afford
To say these words lightly
Or else our world
Will truly Rest in peace"