posted 08-08-2001 01:00 PM            

Why, all of a sudden, does he deem it neccessary to have this information removed?

And why call in 'others' to make this request?

Rick, this is an illegal operation.

And this is exactly why we've had such a hard time getting someone from the military to step forward.

Someone tells them to shut up, they shut up. Sir, yes sir.

According to Topgun, if he ever discovered that the chemtrail phenomena was legitimate, he'd blow the roof off of it.

posted 08-08-2001 01:29 PM            

quote:

---

Rick Donaldson
Posted on August 8, 2001 at 01:09:43 PM by Maverick

I just got through reading the post a CCentral "Interestig Comments From Member of AF" and I couldn't help but make a few interesting comments myself.

First, I have no idea who Rick Donaldson is. He may or may not be in the military, but if he is, then I have to ask the simple questions first.

First off, Mr. Donaldson (I'll substitute "Mr." for rank because none has been given yet,) what in your daily job duties would make you qualified to assess that the planes you saw were not leaving normal contrails? The Comm folks that I work with can tell me how to fix my computer pretty well, but I'd venture to say that less than half fo them can tell me what type of planes we have sitting on our own flight line. And that's not even asking them more detailed questions like "how do contrails form?"

The fact is that Rick is waving the Air Force flag because he thinks that will make him an immediate "expert" on the subject in the minds of the chemmies. I'm not faulting him for that. Hell, that's the same reason why you know that I'm an Air Force pilot. Unfortunately for Mr. Donaldson, sitting indoors all day at work fixing computers is not going to give him any credibility at all for alluding to a conspiracy above Colorado Springs.

I abhor you, Mr. Donaldson, for furthering the paranoid agenda against the Air Force by throwing out your neat little story for the chemmies to feed on. If you truly saw something that you were curious about, then I find it hard to believe that you made two phone calls two years ago and kept quiet about it until now. I feel that there is some deception going on here on more than one level, and if there isn't then you have a lot of explaining to do.

Did you call Buckley? They use airpsace all over Colorado. Did you call Altus? Did you call the UTAH Ang? Did you call the AZ Ang? You just made one call to Peterson, and one call to the Colo. Springs tower? By the way, how are the Tower folks going to know about traffic being diverted many miles away? Denver Center should have been where you called, not the local control tower.

".....they had diverted traffic for a couple of hours around the Pikes Peak region for some unknown military maneauvers. But, no one could confirm the exercise."

-Military maneuvers? Exercise? This is jargon reserved for non-military, Mr. Donaldson. First off, they would be in a MOA, and Center would have told you that the "MOA is Active" meaning that there is local training going on in that airspace. "Military Maneuvers" is an Army term, or a civilian term used by someone who watches JAG and Pensacola:Wings of Gold on TV everyday. We call it "Sorties," "Training Missions," "Air-to-Air," an "LFE," etc., but I've NEVER heard it called "Military Maneuvers" from someone who is IN THE AIR FORCE.

Next question is...where are the pictures? So many make so many claims, yet nobody can supply a picture of anything out of the ordinary. Mr. Donaldson included.

"By the way, there's a bio posted on me someplace on the internet. I'll leave it to you to locate."

Oh, how convenient. Now we're going to have to look for it. Does it really exist?

And, last but not least, do you want to make the statement ".....I have not seen it since" your final answer? The chemmies will roast you on this, because they see it every day and get the chem flu from it. How dare you insult their intelligence like that.

And, finally, this statement by Rick really does it for me.

"Now... I'm here because I've been caught up in some things, and I want to make sure you folks see me and see me ALIVE."

NOW, COME ON. This is total chemmie crap. It actually reminds me of the tactic that DonSucks (pay up) used to make it seem like he's being followed and is in danger. Now, how can a person who is still Active Duty military in a virtually unclassified career field feel like he's in danger? I'm waving the bullshit flag on this guy. Either he's a fraud, or he needs some help. I vote for the former.

It's really handy how DonSucks left, and this guy shows up. Both live(d) near Peterson? Check. Both think the government is out to get them? Check. Both have a tiny bit of working knowledge about the military, but have errors in their posts? Check. One started his own board after the other said that he had just done the same thing? Check. I'm not saying that these two are the same, but you know that Bradley (Pay Up) wouldn't stay away for long, and he has already exhibited a keen ability to mold his personality into whatever shape he sees fit. Now go back and read the posts by mr. rick DONaldson, and tell me what you think......

Any comments, Injun?

Maverick

---

posted 08-08-2001 02:01 PM            

quote:

---

Maverick has posted something....

---

Wow, wouldn't it be cool if we could all have a conversation on one board about this? Oh yeah, we can...

posted 08-08-2001 02:21 PM            

Don't I know it, Thermit! But every so often, once in a blue moon, they are right!

posted 08-08-2001 04:08 PM            

Written by me on Deb's board:

"I did get a chance to look at his bio, and it seems to all ring true to me. Also, one of my agent friends (joke) with experience in dealing with Bradley tells me that this person is definitely not DonSucks (Pay up.) So, I'll eat crow on the Bradley parallels. Sorry, Mr. Donaldson, if you're reading this.

I see that he left the service in 1989 and moved to Colorado Springs. My feelings tell me that if he is still in the military the he is not full-time, ie. he's a reservist. I still have no idea what his rank is, although with no mention of college I would guess that he's not an officer. As members of the military, we are not allowed to hold public office (for obvious reasons) and his unsuccessful run for the school board makes me wonder.

I still would like to believe that he is who he says he is. I am still curious to see who he believes is "out to get him" just because he saw something strange in the sky over two years ago.

On might also ask....why would the Air Force spray over the top of a mountain peak and not anywhere else? Also, why would they spray near the home of thousands of their best and brightest at the Air Force Academy? It doesn't make sense. But, for the chemmies, there only has to be a chemtrail and they will work out the reasons for it later. It's reversed logic if you ask me."

Other than my veiled accusation about him being my favorite NSA-hater, my original post stands. Just because he's Air Force doesn't mean that he can jump in a plane and go flying. I wouldn't ask one of our Supply personnel to explain how to perform a formation take-off. The same rationale applies to Mr. Donaldson. He's no more qualified to make statements about aviation than anyone else. But, because he says that he's in the Air Force, that gets him instant credibility here. Hmmm. Can you say "double standard?" Sure you can.

David, so nice to hear from you. Check out my Gulf War trails explanation in the Science forum? Clearly you must have an explanation for it, since I am just an agent. Your attempts at defamation of the messenger still allows the message to get through. Crap on me all you want, but my point has long since been made. Fee, Fi, Fo, Fum....

Chem11, I seem to have to explain this to the "long-term memory impaired" here every couple of months, but here it goes again. I have neither seen nor heard of an alleged spraying operation through any channels other than here in these web sites. Not a large operation, not a small operation. I've talked to many pilots, intel officers, maintenance personnel, and others and they all have the same answer (after they stop laughing.) There is no such operation! It's as easy as that in my mind, especially since the only real scientific investigations (besides Thermit's) have disproved nearly every claim being made.

Now that I am a bit more aware of this alleged phenomenon than most in the military, I always look for something that might make me suspicious. To this day, I have seen absolutely nothing, nor have I heard anything. I have access to a lot of information and a lot of sources, too. So, call me what you want, but I have yet to find anyone who has any knowledge of this conspiracy you all seem to know to exist.

Now, if I were to find this conspiracy to be true, it would be my DUTY as an officer to report it since it would be illegal. It would be my DUTY to disobey an order to keep my mouth shut about it as well, since any such order would in turn be unlawful. You watch way too much television, Chem11. Reality in the military is far from your perception.

Now, two months from now when you ask the same questions about my sincerity about exposing this alleged operation should I find out about it, do me a favor and save this link, or the links to the three or four other times where I've answered the same question here. Now what's next, another agent accusation? I've got links to that reply as well.....

And Thermit wonders why I no longer post here. I've counted seven attacks on me since my last post here. Four of them accuse me of being an agent. Say it enough times, and maybe you can make it come true. It's the same rationale that flows through these forums like a river. Sorry 3TL1, you may have to play the messenger again soon...

Bye now. (yawn) Y'all know where to find me.

Maverick

posted 08-08-2001 05:34 PM            

quote:
"I abhor you, Mr. Donaldson, for furthering the paranoid agenda against the Air Force by throwing out your neat little story for the chemmies to feed on."

'I abhor you'...a little over the top don't you think?

...'for the chemmies to feed on." This sounds like Jay Reynolds talking (sorry, Jay)
By chemmies I take it you mean us on this board? I find the tone of this insulting and condescending....

He only posted over here because I got involved on his site after Thermit first posted this thread. You have no facts that show he is NSA, and so WHAT if he was? I think your venom comes from the fact that anyone with a military background should dare voice an opinion contrary to what? Yours? Rick has, in my dealings with him, proven to be courteous, polite and fair-minded...On the basis of your comments i can't say the same of you.

posted 08-08-2001 06:27 PM            

quote:

---

Thanks for stopping by Rick.

---

You're welcome, Thermit

quote:

---

Yes, the information has been edited at the request of many.

---

Thanks, I know he will appreciate that.

quote:

---

I believe you when you say you saw a small fleet of Tankers leaving trails that seemed strange to you. You seem to know what you are talking about, and being a member of the USAF, you ought to. I also believe Maverick, an F-16 pilot, when he says he hasn't seen anything unsusal. I think it is important that people give credence to those with different viewpoints and observations, whether it fits with their views on Chemtrails or not. Both debunkers and chemtrail-watchers have been guilty of rejecting that that doesn't agree with their world-view. We are all in this together, might as well learn to work with each other and respect each other. Sermon over.

---

In days, long ago, one of the things I was good at was observation. My observation skills are not gone, but they aren't as good. Neither is my memory sometimes. ALL of us tend to remember things a certain way, and certainly when we have emotion added to that memory we very CLEARLY remember things, as opposed to when there is little emotion attached (like, where the heck did I park my car).

The problem with my own personal observations is that it was not under extraordinary emotional conditions (such as times when I've been an almost-too-close-witness to tornadoes). So.. While I TRUST what I saw now, and believe with all my heart I related the exact story to you, you have to realize there might be mistakes. I might have counted 6 aircraft instead of 8. It might have been Early August, and not Late September.. etc.

Point is... I have some very serious questions regarding the authenticity of chemical trails in a certain light. That is..

Why would the US military drop obviously noxious chemicals on the population centers of the United States? If these chemicals are going to HARM someone, I know very few Airmen who would stand by and do so, and not question this knowing that such chemicals WILL harm someone.

This is the problem with most of the speculation. MANY people here and other places are ASSUMING, perhaps wrongly that the government and military personnel would do something like this if just ordered to do so. There are things called Illegal orders and not one military person I KNOW would ever follow an illegal order, and shoot someone, another American and remain quiet about it.

So... from my perspective, while I HAVE observed questionable things appearing in the skies, I have to stop and say to myself... "Self? Would we do that, knowing that we are harming people?"

The answer is no. No, NO - thousand times, no.

I will speak now, AS a member of the Air Force... not has I've spoken in the past, as a civilan citizen. I personally can affirm that no military member while doing his or her job would knowingly, and on purpose harm another person - unless that job were in the process of defending this country from some enemy, then it is the ENEMY that will have to worry. I can not, nor will I ever believe that the military is dumping harmful chemicals upon the people of the US and its allies, knowing those things would harm us.

It isn't "common sense". It isn't logical. It isn't NECESSARY (we do enough of that with smoking, drinking, drugs and allowing criminals to roam the streets without just punishment most of the time). The government doesn' HAVE to harm anyone on purpose.

I will say, from my point of view that the United States Air Force and indeed, the rest of the branches of military service, contain some of the most highly educated, dedicated, professional men and women of ANY country in the world. I am PROUD to have served with each and every member with whom I've had that pleasure. (There have been hard times, and the occasional "bad apple" but I don't care WHAT job you're in, you're gonna have those problems).

Americans in this country, and those places outside of the United States that have depended on us in the past also should be proud to have our military members serve. No job, whether it is fixing a computer, rescuing refugees, feeding the hungry, or defending this Nation is too small a job for our military members. No one takes their jobs lightly, no one takes their positions for granted and NO ONE that I personally know would ever harm another human being for the sake of just harming them.

Now that I've had my say, as a military man, I'll speak as a citizen. While all of the above it true, and NO ONE puts a gun to MY head and makes me say anything I do not want to say, I will say this.... Our "government" is NOT "our military". Our military is controlled by civilians. Our Congress is controlled by We the People.

If you folks truely believe that there is some conspiracy about chemicals, then I suggest you take the time, and have the air around those places that are suspected of having said chemicals dropped, analyzed. Get real data, from REAL scientific labs. Get several tests, by several labs, independently done.

One you have real evidence, not just pictures, which are evidence in themselves, but not PROOF, you have a case upon which you can build. THEN you call for a Congressional investigation.

One of two things will happen. You will get one and some kind of outcome will be provided. Or, you will get NO WHERE. In the second case, then you have your conspiracy with which to deal.

In the first case - at least, you will be able to move towards some sort of resolution, without the aid of those who might make a profit from such a venture. Without the aid of "true believers", without the aid of "True non-believers".

My feeling about this, is that the majority of you are somewhere in the middle, and there are only a very, very few "extremists" (Please, forgive me for using that title, but it is the only one that applies and does NOT mean I'm demeaning anyone, simply that there ARE people WAY out there on either side). If this is true, then ALL of you must understand, you won't get anywhere by making accusations of our military, or government, especially without a shread of proof (and photos are NOT proof, they are only evidence).

So... while speculation and discussion are free to all, this IS AMERICA (remember that, all of you, no matter if someone TRIES to order you to do something against your will) you DO have that right to speculate, theorize and even, yes, TEST for chemicals.

Now.. on to bigger and better things, in this thread. There are several comments after Thermit's that I shall respond to shortly, including those of TopGun and others. Please bear with me, this is gonna take awhile ( I think I will get another Pepsi, while I work on this offline.)

posted 08-08-2001 06:39 PM            

quote:

---

Why would the US military drop obviously noxious chemicals on the population centers of the United States?

---

Rick,

posted 08-08-2001 07:26 PM            

Sent today to Mr. Donaldson:

"Rick-

Copy that. I once again apologize for anything said today. I assumed a bit too much when the chemmie crowd took you under their wing, and I had thought that you were endorsing their agenda. Once again, A+B does not always equal C. I've dealt with a lot of personal attacks on Thermit's site, and I had read a little too much into your post and made an error in judgment. I'm human, too. Welcome to the ugly, paranoid world that is the Chemtrail Conspiracy. Pull up a chair, stay a while.

I completely agree with the majority of your letter. I may yet (through brainwashing) one day accept the fact that there would be a SMALL operation going on, but you know as well as I do that there is no way in hell an operation as large as is alleged is happening. Keeping it quiet is one thing. Finding the money to do it is an even bigger hurdle. And never mind the fact that you would have to find pilots and ground crew who wouldn't mind spraying on their families and friends some type of unknown substance, and ask no questions in the process. Any of these three questions alone would make me skeptical. Combine them together, and there is no way that this is happening. But, I may be preaching to the choir here.

I have no definitive answer for what you saw, except to maybe say that there was a large-force exercise (LFE) going on that ended up getting cancelled, and the tankers had tons of gas to get rid of. So, they flew over an uninhabited area and got rid of their fuel. This does happen on a regular basis.

When I was in Turkey earlier this year, a night mission was cancelled soon after the KC-135s got airborne. You should have heard their begging over the radio for anybody to get gas from them so they can offload enough to land (tankers can't land with a full fuel load because of the gross weight.) FIVE hours later, they finally landed after reducing their gross weight to an acceptable level. They were not happy campers. So, I can see the tankers holding at their ARCP (air refueling contact point) and, upon their "chicks" not showing up, proceeding to get rid of their gas as expeditiously as possible. Especially since this was a Friday night, and there might have been a push to get on the ground and hit the O'Club as soon as possible. I can definitely see this being the case, since I've been known to throttle up a bit to make it down before happy hour ends.

I also believe that normal contrails start and stop suddenly. When I fly, I often hit "air pockets," the layman's term for an area of rapidly rising or descending air. These columns of air rise and fall because they are a different temperature than the air around them. The updraft or downdraft can be pretty severe, and at low altitudes is the primary cause of "wind shear." Now, when I hit them I get a pretty sudden jolt. Wouldn't it be feasible for a contrail to start or stop just as suddenly as this "jolt?" After all, this air in the "air pocket" is a completely different temperature (and possibly humidity) than the air around it.

But, I wasn't there, and I don't know what you were seeing.

Oh, and please don't call me sir! My dad was enlisted for 20 years, and so was I for four before I got my degree and became one of "them."

Well, I hope that things are clearing up. Once again, I apologize for my snap judgment of you. It was wrong. Best of luck to you, your website, and your retirement."

posted 08-08-2001 07:52 PM            

...'for the chemmies to feed on." This sounds like Jay Reynolds talking (sorry, Jay)
By chemmies I take it you mean us on this board? I find the tone of this insulting and condescending....

This is the tone you have used time and time again. It is obvious that you have nothing but loathing for "chemtrail activists". The use of the term "chemmie" is an attempt lesson our validity in the chemtrail issue. I suggest sir that our work is just as important and our research just as valid as yours. As for proof that chemtrails exist or do not exist, your "side" offers nothing more than speculation, old photos and many many words of denial. Where is the proof of non-existance there?? There seems to more evidence showing the existance of chemtrails than hard proof of non-existance.
The gulf war shot is but one of thousands showing chemlines and trails, explaining away one photo does not automaticlly make all the others invalid.
I hope this is not viewed as attack number 8, it is not meant to be, just stating fact.

posted 08-08-2001 08:25 PM            

I'll admit that Maverick started being less polite a couple of weeks ago, but please remember he told us that he, too, had some personal issues to resolve. And at that time we were making some rather provocative statements about him and about other pilots. Coincidentally, at the same time I was having some nasty statements made about me at another chemtrail board. Trust me, it's not a fun experience to become a pariah in cyberspace.

posted 08-08-2001 08:34 PM            

quote:

---

Chem11: Rick, this is an illegal operation.

And this is exactly why we've had such a hard time getting someone from the military to step forward.

Someone tells them to shut up, they shut up. Sir, yes sir.

According to Topgun, if he ever discovered that the chemtrail phenomena was legitimate, he'd blow the roof off of it.

I don't believe that. Does anyone else?

---

What makes you think that any of this is "an operation"? Let's say someone posted a message by you, that you'd thought was sent in complete confidence and your name and a lot of other details were posted. How would you feel? While I certainly believe and KNOW that it has been tested in court before, email sent to you or me, is NOT private by any stretch of the imagination. I believe the "Colonel" felt "betrayed" and was trying his best to keep some dingity, by requesting that I remove his name. I did do so. But, then I found it here. I simply have been trying to mitigate the circumstances. I removed his name at his request. He also requested (and I use the term "request" LOOSELY) that I write a retraction. I haven't ever said anything about him to retract, thus, I refused his request. This is, as far as I am concerned over with. He may have other feelings, but he has not let me know yet.

Now... If TopGun, who I believe is a Naval Officer states that "he'd blow the roof off it", then you can take him at his word. Military personnel, contrary to popular belief do NOT tell lies regularily to avoid punishment, or to hide harmful things from everyone else. The defense of the United States of America and her Allies is NOT something we take in stride as part of a daily job... well, that isn't totally true I guess. We do to some extent take it in stride, and sometimes we take for granted that "our own jobs aren't very important". One thing every person in the military swears to do, is to "protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America, against all enemies, foreign and domestic...".

This is something that not only includes picking up a gun and fighting hand to hand combat with some faceless enemy, it means DEFENDING the American Way of Life, including but NOT LIMITED TO "...life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" - which is found in the first line of the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independance. We combat fraud, waste and abuse. We combat the loss of budgets that cause us to lose our strength as a fighting force, by doing more with less. We combat the loss of good personnel at every opportunity, by trying to train them better (that's still a joke in my book, and something I will address in my "Good Bye" speech in a few weeks). We combat treason, by keeping our secrets safe. Ah... secrets. I know some of you think that is a bad thing... and I can see your point of view. But, unless and until you've been in the shoes of a good many military members who've DIED because some one gave away a secret, I don't wanna hear any whining about it.

If Topgun says he will "blow the lid".. then believe him. He will.

quote:

---

3T3L : "(What fun if Rick D were really nsasucks, and the Colonel had set himself the task of investigating Rick D. The mind boggles.) Anyway,"

---

3T3L - until about two days ago, I didn't know this BBS existed. I didn't know 3T3L existed, and I didn't know there was a problem between the "Colonel" and "nsasucks". Until Friday last, I didn't know the Colonel existed. I assure you, I am none of those names, I am not 3T3L, and I am definately ME. I have been ME since 1957. I DO exist and what you see, is exactly what you get. There is nothing about me that is "secret". There is nothing about me I've ever hidden away. I don't care if someone knows I exist, or don't care if they don't care I exist. I assure you, I do. I'm as real as anyone else who posts here. The difference between me, and may of you folks is, I have no reason to hide my name, nor do I want to hide my name.

I exist because my name IS MY name. There are other Rick Donaldsons in this world. I've met a few, but, I am definately, the ONLY ME. My veracity has been questioned in many forums, and regardless of the forum, those who've questioned me, generally come around to an understanding with me - that I'm not presumputious, I'm not pompas, and I tell it like it is, the way I see it. I don't pull punches. If someone gets in my face and shoves me, I repond with like or greater force. I do not back down from principles. I do not back down from the truth.

So.. please, understand, I came here ONLY because my name was being bandied about, and like the Colonel, I was curious why. Now I see... and I can only say... like before.. good job at tracking down information you folks.

This next part, I'm not going to quote, please look back up the thread, at the comments made by 3T3L about Maverick's comments. I shall address Maverick's comments next.

I am a Reservist, your logic is accurate. (I've already sent an email to Maverick in response to his to me... I think we see eye to eye on some things, but not necessarily all things).

My "rank" has never been important, to the discussion of anomalies. My rank, and my military duty are separate issues from my studies of things like "UFOs", Big Foot, weird weather patterns. My rank is not used, because it not a necessary part of any of the discussions. The only reason the fact that I've mentioned that I was in the Air Force at ALL has been to substantiate certain facts. Things that I could know if I were in the Air Force. If I were not in the Air Force and never had been, and had no interest in air planes at all, I wouldn't know jack about C-130s, C-141s, or other cargo planes. I wouldn't recognized a KC-10 from a DC-10 and I wouldn't know a Boeing 707 from a KC-135.... but, I do, BECAUSE I was in the Air Force for the past 26 years. Thus, my rank is NOT mentioned in places like my bio, on web sites, or in discussion of anything to do with any of this. The very FACT I'm in the Air Force, as a Reservist is not relavent in ANY case. You folks simply took it at the beginning of the thread to make it interesting that a military person would say some of the things I've said. Believe me... if I weren't in the military, you'd have given little more credence to my story, than you would any other "civilian". So, please, don't dwell on the fact that I've performed active duty, or reserve duty. That has nothing to do with my abilities to tell the truth.

I didn't want to do quotes, but gonna have to, or I will miss something important.

quote:

---

First off, Mr. Donaldson (I'll substitute "Mr." for rank because none has been given yet,) what in your daily job duties would make you qualified to assess that the planes you saw were not leaving normal contrails? The Comm folks that I work with can tell me how to fix my computer pretty well, but I'd venture to say that less than half fo them can tell me what type of planes we have sitting on our own flight line. And that's not even asking them more detailed questions like "how do contrails form?"

---

Nothing in my COMM background qualifies me to assess contrails Sir. What "qualifies me" is the fact I'm a trained weather spotter for the National Weather Service, with over 10 years of training from the organization in weather spotting. My wife and I are storm chasers... kind of like those folks you keep seeing on TLC, the History Channel and other educational TV showing OKC during the big tornadoes a couple of years ago (we missed being there, because something came up in the family. We'd planned a trip to Ok for over a month and had to skip our trip, to our relief, we were NOT on the ground there when that storm hit!) The fact that I am and have been an amateur astronomer for about
36 years and have watched the skies in MANY places from Michigan, to Kentucky, to Oklahoma, to Washington DC, to Virgina and Colorado. Not to mention the other 41 or 42 countries I've had the opportunity to visit. What qualifies me has nothing to do with being in the Air Force (except what I cited earlier about being able to ID planes 2 out of 3 times.....). So, I am not trying to come off as an "expert" on contrails. I'm not. Until the year 2000 I never heard of such a thing. By far, I'm no expert on "chemtrails", but I DO know when conditions are right here in Colorado for seeing contrails. I also know when I see a "smoke trail" left by airplanes at air shows and the difference. I also know when I see a "checkerboard pattern" in the sky.

By the way, I don't fix computers for the Air Force. I'm a RADIO guy. I climb towers, put up antennas, and I'm an OLD comm guy, that means I know how to kill people with my bear hands, while replacing a vacuum tube (oh, they don't use those any more, do they???). I've never sat indoors and repaired computers as a military person, TopGun. Please, understand, you're making a rash assumption here. The guys with whom you've had experience probably weren't White House Communications Agency types either. They probably haven't a CLUE what "Combat Communications" is, and I'll wager you not one of them has spent nights in the jungles of central America or watched fellow Airmen die when their plane went down in a distant desert.

quote:

---

I abhor you, Mr. Donaldson, for furthering the paranoid agenda against the Air Force by throwing out your neat little story for the chemmies to feed on. If you truly saw something that you were curious about, then I find it hard to believe that you made two phone calls two years ago and kept quiet about it until now. I feel that there is some deception going on here on more than one level, and if there isn't then you have a lot of explaining to do.

---

To the public, TopGun has written me about this. I understand his feelings, and I will only go into the fact here that I didn't "write a neat, little story" to egg folks on. I'm not about that. I actually made more than two phone calls that day, it took me some time to get through to the folks in the Colorado Springs tower... (shrugs) and even then, they wouldn't stay on the phone long enough to say more than "diverted aircraft for military maneuvers". I'm not deceiving anyone. I might believe SOMEONE is, but it wasn't me doing the depception. I am not "a disinformation officer" or whatever term everyone is applying these days. As Shultz would say, "I know NOTH-INK!" I don't know any more about "chem trails" than the next guy. I don't think they are chemicals that are harmful, IF the AF is INDEED dumping something. I think they are probably something else.

quote:

---

By the way, how are the Tower folks going to know about traffic being diverted many miles away? Denver Center should have been where you called, not the local control tower.

---

Another kind of rash assumption... Denver notifies outlaying areas, actually, and did in this case. I didn't call Buckley. Didn't occur to me. Remember, I thought there was an AIR SHOW... hell, I wanted to go SEE the damned thing, I LIKE air shows. Two years ago, my oldest grandkid was two years old. He LOVES airplanes. I would have taken him to see it. Sorry... I wasn't trying to confirm something "suspicious", I was trying to confirm something I wanted to see MORE OF. Geez.

quote:

---

-Military maneuvers? Exercise? This is jargon reserved for non-military, Mr. Donaldson. First off, they would be in a MOA, and Center would have told you that the "MOA is Active" meaning that there is local training going on in that airspace. "Military Maneuvers" is an Army term, or a civilian term used by someone who watches JAG and Pensacola:Wings of Gold on TV everyday. We call it "Sorties," "Training Missions," "Air-to-Air," an "LFE," etc., but I've NEVER heard it called "Military Maneuvers" from someone who is IN THE AIR FORCE.

---

Sir, I know all this. However, I didn't call the tower and tell them I was the SOF at Peterson wanting to know what the hell was going on. They certainly AREN'T and DO NOT use technical terms with the general public either. I wasn't even speaking to the HEAD controller on duty, I was speaking to whomever answered the damned telephone. Now.. while it is nice that you can authoritatively question my story (and in fact GOOD that someone can do so) it has little bearing on what I really saw, and what I heard on the telephone. So... please believe me, when I tell you, I wasn't trying to verify chem trails. haha, I was trying to verify if there was an air show. In fact, I believe I ASKED the lady (if that WAS A LADY) if the "maneuvers is some kind of air show". She didnt know. Also, for the record, the "Pikes Peak Region" is an area that extends from roughly Pueblo Colorado, some 45 or so miles to the south, to roughly the Castle Rock Colorado area, which is about 45 or 50 miles to the north of me, along the I-25 Corridor, which runs north and south through Colorado Springs (and passes right by the USAFA). And it extends westward to well into Teller county and eastward as far as Lincoln county. Check a map so you can see what I'm talking about. Colorado Springs International Airport takes care of that area, though Denver is one of the major hubs.

quote:

---

Next question is...where are the pictures? So many make so many claims, yet nobody can supply a picture of anything out of the ordinary. Mr. Donaldson included.

---

I sent the two originals off to a guy named Willam Thomas, I believe. I've never received an answer about them from him, and he has never sent me any thing stating he got them. I wrote it off. As for the negatives... I believe I answered that question over on Anomalies.Net some days ago. A while back, my wife and I cleaned a lot of junk out, and I threw out a LOT of photos and negatives. Mostly they were of photos of various sky shots that contained cloud formations I thought were "interesting" at the time. The roll upon which those two photos were taken was on one of those types of rolls of photos. I'm certain they went out to the dump many moons ago. As for 'providing proof', that is not, and never HAS been my purpose for being involved in these various discussions. My purpose has always been and remains "Curiousity". Not proof.

quote:

---

"Now... I'm here because I've been caught up in some things, and I want to make sure you folks see me and see me ALIVE"

---

At the risk of pissing off certain people, I will state for the record, I have received NUMEROUS emails, and phone calls on my voice mail (at work) from a certain individual, who has repeatedly threatened me with lawsuits, and veiled threats of "two can play this game". That is why I said that comment. I am leavint this, at that for now. Suffice it to say... this is not a subject for discussion at this time, and likely will NOT be any time in the near future.

quote:

---

Now, how can a person who is still Active Duty military in a virtually unclassified career field feel like he's in danger? I'm waving the bullshit flag on this guy. Either he's a fraud, or he needs some help. I vote for the former.

---

As we ascertained earlier, I am not Active Duty. I'm not in a "virtually unclassified career field" and I don't feel like *I* am in danger. I feel like any person that threatens me is the one in danger. I'm not a fraud. Never have, never will be. As for the "bullshit flag"... where can I buy one of those?

Folks... the truth is, I am a moderator on a forum about topics that are sometimes so totally "out there" that I can't believe on occasion that I'm reading them. I don't believe (as I've stated before) that the AF or anyone else in the military is out to poison us. I'd believe other things about the government in general, but NOT the military.

I believe that God gave every man, woman and child the ability to think for themselves and make choices for a reason. I made my choices to follow these "anomalies" and find out the truth behind things like "Big Foot", the Locke ness monsters, UFOs, alien abductions, chem trails, chupacabra... you name it... we look at it. We formed a team to do investigations on a good portion of this stuff.

I know full well that somewhere along the way, some of this stuff will be proven as hoaxes and some will be proven as truth. It might not be in my lifetime, or any of yours, but....

The truth... IS out there....

happy hunting.

Rick

posted 08-08-2001 08:58 PM            

Anyway, I'm not a Naval Officer. I chose the moniker "Top Gun" because of everyone's association with that movie and fighter pilots. I'm a short hop south from you in New Mexico. In addition to being in the Air Force, you and I share a lot in common. But, that's for another time.....

Best of luck!

posted 08-09-2001 02:59 AM            

For the moment, I'd think it would be most productive to focus my singular attention on one specific claim at a time.

For those of us suffering from 'long-term memory impairment', to borrow a line from Mavericks insightful and provocative post, perhaps we should begin here:

quote:

---

I personally can affirm that no military member while doing his or her job would knowingly, and on purpose harm another person - unless that job were in the process of defending this country from some enemy, then it is the ENEMY that will have to worry.

---

Rick, below you fill a find a short sampling of the crimes committed by US military persnonel againt US citizens:

1931 Dr. Cornelius Rhoads, under the auspices of the Rockefeller Institute for Medical Investigations, infects human subjects with cancer cells. He later goes on to establish the U.S. Army Biological Warfare facilities in Maryland, Utah, and Panama, and is named to the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission. While there, he begins a series of radiation exposure experiments on American soldiers and civilian hospital patients.

1942 Chemical Warfare Services begins mustard gas experiments on approximately 4,000 servicemen. The experiments continue until 1945 and made use of Seventh Day Adventists who chose to become human guinea pigs rather than serve on active duty.

1944 U.S. Navy uses human subjects to test gas masks and clothing. Individuals were locked in a gas chamber and exposed to mustard gas and lewisite.

1945 "Program F" is implemented by the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission (AEC). This is the most extensive U.S. study of the health effects of fluoride, which was the key chemical component in atomic bomb production. One of the most toxic chemicals known to man, fluoride, it is found, causes marked adverse effects to the central nervous system but much of the information is squelched in the name of national security because of fear that lawsuits would undermine full-scale production of atomic bombs.

1946 Patients in VA hospitals are used as guinea pigs for medical experiments. In order to allay suspicions, the order is given to change the word "experiments" to "investigations" or "observations" whenever reporting a medical study performed in one of the nation's veteran's hospitals.

1947 Colonel E.E. Kirkpatrick of the U.S. Atomic Energy Comission issues a secret document (Document 07075001, January 8, 1947) stating that the agency will begin administering intravenous doses of radioactive substances to human subjects.

1950 Department of Defense begins plans to detonate nuclear weapons in desert areas and monitor downwind residents for medical problems and mortality rates.

1950 In an experiment to determine how susceptible an American city would be to biological attack, the U.S. Navy sprays a cloud of bacteria from ships over San Franciso. Monitoring devices are situated throughout the city in order to test the extent of infection. Many residents become ill with pneumonia-like symptoms.

1951 Department of Defense begins open air tests using disease-producing bacteria and viruses. Tests last through 1969 and there is concern that people in the surrounding areas have been exposed.

1953 U.S. military releases clouds of zinc cadmium sulfide gas over Winnipeg, St. Louis, Minneapolis, Fort Wayne, the Monocacy River Valley in Maryland, and Leesburg, Virginia. Their intent is to determine how efficiently they could disperse chemical agents.

1953 Joint Army-Navy-CIA experiments are conducted in which tens of thousands of people in New York and San Francisco are exposed to the airborne germs Serratia marcescens and Bacillus glogigii.

1955 The CIA, in an experiment to test its ability to infect human populations with biological agents, releases a bacteria withdrawn from the Army's biological warfare arsenal over Tampa Bay, Fl.

1955 Army Chemical Corps continues LSD research, studying its potential use as a chemical incapacitating agent. More than 1,000 Americans participate in the tests, which continue until 1958.

1956 U.S. military releases mosquitoes infected with Yellow Fever over Savannah, Ga and Avon Park, Fl. Following each test, Army agents posing as public health officials test victims for effects.

1958 LSD is tested on 95 volunteers at the Army's Chemical Warfare Laboratories for its effect on intelligence.

1960 The Army Assistant Chief-of-Staff for Intelligence (ACSI) authorizes field testing of LSD in Europe and the Far East. Testing of the european population is code named Project THIRD CHANCE; testing of the Asian population is code named Project DERBY HAT.

1965 Project CIA and Department of Defense begin Project MKSEARCH, a program to develop a capability to manipulate human behavior through the use of mind-altering drugs.

1965 Prisoners at the Holmesburg State Prison in Philadelphia are subjected to dioxin, the highly toxic chemical component of Agent Orange used in Viet Nam. The men are later studied for development of cancer, which indicates that Agent Orange had been a suspected carcinogen all along.

1966 U.S. Army dispenses Bacillus subtilis variant niger throughout the New York City subway system. More than a million civilians are exposed when army scientists drop lightbulbs filled with the bacteria onto ventilation grates.

1967 CIA and Department of Defense implement Project MKNAOMI, successor to MKULTRA and designed to maintain, stockpile and test biological and chemical weapons.

1977 Senate hearings on Health and Scientific Research confirm that 239 populated areas had been contaminated with biological agents between 1949 and 1969. Some of the areas included San Francisco, Washington, D.C., Key West, Panama City, Minneapolis, and St. Louis.

1994 With a technique called "gene tracking," Dr. Garth Nicolson at the MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, TX discovers that many returning Desert Storm veterans are infected with an altered strain of Mycoplasma incognitus, a microbe commonly used in the production of biological weapons. Incorporated into its molecular structure is 40 percent of the HIV protein coat, indicating that it had been man-made.

1994 Senator John D. Rockefeller issues a report revealing that for at least 50 years the Department of Defense has used hundreds of thousands of military personnel in human experiments and for intentional exposure to dangerous substances. Materials included mustard and nerve gas, ionizing radiation, psychochemicals, hallucinogens, and drugs used during the Gulf War.

http://www.healthnewsnet.com/humanexperiments.html

posted 08-09-2001 09:39 AM            

quote:

---

Dear Mr.Prime Minister,

Many times we have seen long lingering clouds left by photo-identified U.S. Air Force jet tankers. We understand from Canadian aviation authorities, the FAA and other sources that these are not contrails
but in fact are a chemical spray apparently aimed at weather and climate modification.

In November, 1998 the citizens of Espanola, Ontario petitioned Parliament to stop these overflights, which they stated were making people sick throughout a wide area.

Their petition was never satisfactorily answered by DND. We believe these "aerial obscuration" missions flown by U.S. Weather Force Specialists are continuing to sicken people sick and adversely affect weather across Canada.

We are asking the federal government to stop these atmospheric modification flights immediately, and to inform the Canadian parliament and public regarding all aspects of a program that poses significant atmospheric risks and serious health hazards - particularly to children and the
elderly.

Thank you for your time and immediate attention.

Sincerely
***** ****
Kelowna BC Canada

---

and the reply...

quote:

---

From:
To:
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 6:01 AM
Subject: RE: Chemtrails

Dear ***** ****:

Your e-mail concerning condensation trails over Canada was forwarded to me by the Office of the Prime Minister.

I am advised that the phenomenon you describe is normal and that the Department of National Defence is not delivering any foreign substance int the atmosphere. Condensation trails are formed when water produced by the combustion of jet fuel cools very rapidly as it comes into contact with
cold air and, in effect, forms a cloud. Typically, condensation trails form at higher altitudes where the air is much colder. When the air is stable and
there are no strong winds aloft, these vapour trails are persistent, and
tend to spread slowly over a long period of time rather than dissipate rapidly.

Although United States military forces and Canadian Forces often conduct combined training, there is no activity called "aerial obscuration," nor is there any activity that resembles your concerns. All military activity is planned with the utmost safety in mind, especially for the civilians and the environment.

I hope the foregoing allays your concerns.

Sincerely,

Art Eggleton

MCU2001-03173A-H

---

so I wrote back...

quote:

---

From: ***** **** [mailto:ter5555@home.com]
Sent: July 26, 2001 5:33 PM
To: Egglea@parl.gc.ca
Cc: maimailto:Pm@pm.gc.ca
Subject: Re: Chemtrails

Dear Mr. Eggleton:

Well, your reply is the exact same reply, word for word, as you gave me last year. And again, I'm not buying it.

"I am advised that the phenomenon you describe is normal"

I realize this is what you have been "advised to say, but what is the truth? Have you been "advised" not to tell it?

"All military activity is planned with the utmost safety in mind, especially for the
civilians and the environment."

No, the military, both US and Canada, would NEVER harm us useless eaters...

"I hope the foregoing allays your concerns."

No, it most certainly doesn't. I find lies
insulting to my intelligence. My concern about chemtrails is still as real as the chemtrails themselves. Why not visit us sometime at www.chemtrailcentral.com for a dose of reality.

Have a great day, I hope your skies are blue

---

Also included with the above e-mail was the History of Human Experimentation on United States Citizens that you posted above chem11. I am still waiting to hear back on this one!

[Edited 4 times, lastly by Lulu on 08-09-2001]

posted 08-09-2001 12:35 PM            

In any case, I think it'd be a good idea to attack the message instead of the messenger, at least as far as the Neutral Zone. Part of the reason I thought this area would be a good idea was that people need to sharpen their skills with regards to refuting some of the statements made by 'debunkers' and members of the military.