posted 07-26-2001 01:32 PM            

quote:

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Perhaps I can shed some light on this chem-trail/con-trail thing.
I've been in the Air Force for 26 years, and while my field is combat communications, I am familiar with a lot of the flying-type missions.

I'm not familiar with anything that might be considered weather modification.

On the OTHER hand. Two years ago, I had just bought my wife a hot tub for Mother's Day. We decided that it was nice to sit out in the evening and watch the skies. Something I do anyway, is watch the skies, always have, always will. I've very familiar with the air traffic control patterns in our area of the Front Range. I know where planes will be found, I know where they aren't supposed to be.

Late one evening about 5 or 6 weeks after we had the hot tub, and had been sitting out every evening, there was a clear sky, the sun was just going behind the mountains and I noticed several air craft flying in formation. I grabbed some binoculars that I keep sitting near the tub and noted they looked like tankers.

At about the same time I got a good bead on one, it started to show a trail, where it had not been showing one moments before.

When I took my eyes from the binoculars, I saw a string of about 8 or 9 planes. Eight trails for certain could be seen, evenly spaces several thousand feet apart, at around 40 or 50 thousand feet (that's an estimate only, based on the plane - they were KC-135s, I got a very good look at them through my spotter scope a few minutes later).

I watched the planes travel east to west, then the trails ceased.

The planes vanished behind Pikes Peak and the mountain range. About 20 minutes later, the reappeared to the south. By then I had my camera, and my spotter scope (where I confirmed I was seeing a KC-135 tanker). I took a couple of shots, because I'd never seen anything like it before. I figured it was some kind of practice for an air show.

They planes traveled from south to north (almost precisely on true north) - and then they continued the pattern. When they finished, I was seeing a checkerboard pattern. At the same time, I started noticing no more air planes in the area.

The next day was Saturday, so I called over to Peterson and asked about an air show, they weren't aware of anything.

I asked about the "show" I'd observed the night before. They knew "nothing about that". I asked about the patterns they left, and the folks at Operations were not aware of any flights that would have involved tankers flying in formation, nor were they aware of anything else going on the night before.

The Colorado Springs tower DID confirm they had diverted traffic for a couple of hours around the Pikes Peak region for some unknown military maneauvers. But, no one could confirm the exercise.

We don't fly KC-135's out of Peterson, we fly C-130s. None of my pilot friends were aware of anything either.

I wrote it off until I heard an Art Bell show one night. Then it started to click.

So - before Tycho, or anyone else offhandedly dismisses this subject as an urban legend (and you're fine to believe what you will, Sir) I would suggest you all take another look at it.

...

Now, I'm just as skeptical about a lot of this stuff as anyone else, but, I live here in the US Tycho, I work for the government, I've been with the government for 26 years. Don't get me wrong, but, you're writing this off based on a bunch of debunkers that haven't the experience with the US government that I have.

Finally, I'm not saying that they really ARE doing ANYTHING with chemicals, bt it was highly unusual for what I personally saw, and I have not seen it since. (And there were dozens of others who saw it in the area that evening besides me, including pilots who thought something odd was going on).

That was two years ago... since then, we've seen the controversy grow about this, and there are the "believers" and the "skeptics" on both sides of this issue as well.

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The "bad" news...where da' photos?

quote:

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I don't have the original photos. I only took two shots, and I didn't consider them important, so I didn't log them in my logs for photos I usually shoot of storms.

I PROBABLY DO have the negatives somewhere, no promises that I will dig them out though. The originals were sent to... Thomas? I can't remember his name. Some guy that was on Art Bell's show. They MIGHT appear on his web site, but I've never seen them and only visited his site once ever.

I'll attempt to locate the negatives (but this was about two years ago, and they might be anywhere including gone. ) But, I'll check.

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posted 07-26-2001 03:06 PM            

quote:

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Rick, with all due respect, I’m not writing this issue off based on a bunch of debunkers. I’m writing it off based on common sense. Yep, as easy as that.
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And with all due respect in return, common sense is fine, and I agree with you on that. But, you did NOT read my message closely. I'm an eye witness to it. I saw it. You don't have to believe me, but I know what I saw.

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Rick, being an ex-airforce man, you (of all people) should be aware that CONTRAILS form at very high altitudes (about 7 or 8 kms high) where the air is cold and moist. Repeat after me folks, cold & moist. The higher the moisture content, the longer the contrail. They can last from minutes to an entire day.
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It's not "Ex" - I'm still in the military until this November.

Yes I am very, extrememly aware of contrails and how they function. I also am an 'amateur meteorologist', storm chaser, and one of my college studies was Earth Sciences. I know how the atmosphere works, and I know precisely what it takes to form a contrail. That's all well and good. I see them at different times of the day or evening, depending on the temperature at the altitude at which the aircraft fly.

However, you missed the point of the story.

1) I SAW a formation of at least eight aircraft, which I did identify as KC-135s (those are Boeing 707s, with a "stinger", the refueling device under the tail of the plane. You can't possibly confuse them with other planes when you know what you're looking at).

2) The planes were flying side by side at a distance of several thousand feet apart, traveling from east to west when I spotted them.

3) The planes BEGAN to show trails at exactly the same time, across a vast region of the sky. Trust me the weather patterns here are ANYTHING but precise, and thus the chances of EACH AIRCRAFT (scattered over several miles apart) starting to show a contrail at precisely the same time are astronomical in the Pikes Peak region due to the various surges and updrafts from the mountain range). It would not have happened. Period.

4) The planes ceased depositing a cloud trail behind them at EXACTLY the same time. Military precision in flying is, if nothing else both a pleasure to watch, and a pleasure to know our military is capable of doing, in the defense of my country. It was NOT unusual for me to have seen something like that - at air shows throughout the country. Thus, I ASSUMED at the TIME it was some sort of practice for an air show. I was mistaken. There were no air shows anywhere within several states of me on that weekend. (It was a Friday night, generally before air shows, the participants practice the day and evening before the actual shows. That's a fact, check with any air show in your area, or in the US).

5) the planes changed course, after they flew behind the mountain range, and returned roughly twenty minutes later. They came from the south and flew northward, EXACTLY on true north (I have it marked in my yard, because of antenna orientation and communications dishes I have there, so I KNOW which way north is). At precisely the point where the first "contrail" started, the planes again started to show trails. They ended exactly when they had flown to the last one (which was about 2 minutes I think).

From my own observations - I saw a formation of military aircraft, turning on and off some sort of device that allowed for a visible cloud formation. There were NO OTHER CONTRAILS that afternoon, before, OR after. These were NOT contrails. I didn't even consider any other possibilities than it was an air show until I confirmed there weren't any, anywhere near by. When I called the tower, they told me that normal air traffic had been diverted for a full two hours (at least). They only said it had to do with military maneauvers.

I didn't hear ANYTHING about "chemtrails" until about a year later. The pictures popped up to haunt me a few days after I heard the Art Bell show. I sent them off to that guy that runs the web site about it. I've never heard anything else about it, except the occasional posts like this thread.

You are correct about cool and moist. However, it is more COLD and moist. It was late August, probably early September. The lower air was warm and we did not have storms that day. If you have high altitude COLD air, sitting over a WARM lower mass, you get... STORMS. There were none that evening. Thus the air above was within a very close range as the lower air. If I remember that day it was in the high 60's if not mid 70s. There were not other contrails.

quote:
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Thus we can conclude that CONTRAILS are consistent with high flying aircraft flying through a cold & moist atmosphere.
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Not in MY case. I do not know about all the other places around the country, but I KNOW from personal experience that ours were not normal contrails. At the very LEAST they were planes venting the kind of smoke you see in air shows. At the MOST they were some kind of chemicals released by the aircraft for some other reason.

quote:
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PS: And just because you heard it on Art Bell means jack as far as I’m concerned. Art is the biggest peddler of paranoid mumbo jumbo you could ever hope to come across.
Your eyewitness account in no way convinces me that you witnessed a chemtrail. It does however tell me that you witnessed a CONTRAIL.

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Well, your opinion of Art, is honestly not far from mine. However, at least I have an open mind about the subjects. You are writing it off because you are completely and totally assured it is a contrail. I'm not convinced and in fact, and absolutely positive what I saw that day was not a normal contrail. You simply weren't there and can't make the rash assumption that it WAS because you do not know the weather patterns here. You can't make the assumption it was a contrail because I have just gone back through the material and given you the exact facts as I remember them (I'm afraid I don't keep a daily log on weird occurrences because I generally write them off too as odd things, but don't let them bug me like this is bugging you.)

Let me ask you a question - and this is a serious question. You've stated in several of your notes how people should be using common sense, and yet you also state emphatically that it "CAN'T BE" what someone else says. If you weren't there to personally witness my event, how can you know? (Hell, I might be lying, but anyone that knows me will tell you I do NOT tell lies. I tell it like it happened.)

What is it about someone seeing something they believe to be anomalous and you are coming out vehemently denying the possibility? Does someone pay you to come off sounding like a furiously angry debunker, or is that something you came up with all on your own?

I simply do NOT get it. There are those who look at this stuff and take the time to examine what's been said, carefully, but here you are - attempting to simply say "You people are wrong, you're always wrong, nothing you see is out of the ordinary"?

That reminds me of that movie, "The Wizard of Oz", where Toto opens the curtain, and the four travelers see an old man standing behind the curtain, pulling levers and talking into a microphone - when he realizes he has been discovered, the Old Man says "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"

Is that what this vehement debunking from so many places means? (Especially, I must note, the UK, Australia and other European countries). I've seem the biggest, loudest protesting from other countries. Can anyone explain that to me???

--------------------

Rick Donaldson
Anomalies Network Admin
Colorado Springs
------------------------------ http://survival.anomalies.net
------------------------------
"The truth is out there..."

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posted 07-27-2001 01:34 AM            

quote:

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Guess what I am going to check this guy out!! Bet he doesn't know what I do??
Posted on July 26, 2001 at 10:29:06 PM by injun

This should be interesting for those of you who know me and what I do!!

Rick Donaldson
Administrator
Member # 25
posted July 24, 2001 06:09

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Someone should really give this guy the heads up. I guess all you have to do is report a chemtrail sighting and you're deemed worthy of being 'checked out' by a self-proclaimed 'Assasin' from the Air Force.

And you wonder why people distrust the military, Maverick?

Pretty soon somebody is going to be checking you out.

posted 07-29-2001 03:43 PM            

I have every time he's on...to this date I have not seen his photos secret bases, with the 'fleets' of kc-135 tankers that he implies are spraying the US ,he also implies that chemtrails are everything from weather mod to population cull, and 47 other things under the sun that could be possible...

Is it any wonder that some are skeptical of thomas when with his implications he is basically taking a handful of darts, throwing them all and hoping to hit the bullseye....

this is a curious quote:

Finally, I'm not saying that they really ARE doing ANYTHING with chemicals, but it was highly unusual for what I personally saw, and I have not seen it since.

if he would just crap the photos...

posted 08-01-2001 03:09 PM            

Here is the latter part of my final post to MR Reynolds.
posted August 01, 2001 05:02
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Quote:
" Given the scope of observations and allegations day after day, year after year, from every state in the US, some in Canada, and yours from the UK, just how many people would actually have to be "in the know"? How many designers, manufacturers, factories producing the materials, planes, and equipment, what about the mechanics that repair the planes, the loaders, the cleaners, the planners, the fuelers, the air traffic controllers, the pilots etc.? How would such secrecy be maintained? This is one of the logical fallacies of the chemtrail hoax, and not one easily overcome. What do you say?"

How would secrecy be maintained? Isn't that a rather naive question? The Nazis managed to carry out one of the worst atrocities in Human history...without the knowledge, it would seem, of most of it's rank and file; the german people or the West! Their 'skill' was in the sheer organisation of such an efficient killing machine...It was HUGE! There is a case being investigated over here - where people were experimented on, using sarin (?) in the 1950's BY the ARMY and GOVERNMENT at a TOP SECRET MOD establishment...it is only now coming out!!... Actually I can't be bothered to continue listing examples of how programs can be kept secret...that would assume that you were too uninformed to know this information yourself. And I presume you ARE an intelligent person.
Your argument, then, Mr Reynolds is that because YOU cannot imagine the logistics in your mind, because it would be SO big...that immediately cancels out ANY information that may point to the possibility of CTs? Well that argument has persuaded me!

Quote
"No one can "control" you. You will eventually come to agree with me, as the contrails you see as "chemtrails" will continue for the rest of your life."

No one can control me? That negates your argument that I have been dupped into 'believing' that I have observed CT's by others. I will eventually come to agree with you? Sounds like a hypnotic suggestion to me! Just don't hold your breath. So you know the spraying is here to stay? Thanks for the insider information

Quote:
"I do believe in something, Ms Amber, I believe in the truth, based on fact and reality. I believe everyone has a moral obligation to speak the truth, and expose untruth. Would you have me do otherwise?"

posted 08-03-2001 01:28 AM            

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Quoted from Jay Reynolds:
"The poor fellow is going quite mad, and is leading others the same way."

I have been following this thread with interest, but the above quote bothers me. What bothers me is presuming the man referred to in that quote is "going quite mad". Indeed, his claim MAY be erroneous, but the above quote is poking fun at a man for what he believes and then presumes that others will go just as 'mad'.

I have bit my tongue reading what appears to be an attitude of superiority contained in Mr. Reynolds statements.

Mr. Reynolds,
What I have written above is simply an awareness notice to you. Please stop character attacks. You seem so positive that chemtrails do not exist that you appear driven to try and convince others, even if it means attacking others. Instead of calling the man mad, couldn't you have simply referenced the man and stated you saw no credibility to his experience? Your remark in this instance was inflamatory. I actually wonder how you may respond to me.

I do not discredit the research you have done, in fact it is rather nicely put together.

I am not one who currently believes OR disbelieves the existance of chemtrails. I have read the links provided with interest, and am sitting on the fence looking and waiting for more information. I have not seen what I would call chemtrails personally, but then, maybe I have not looked up at the right time. Who knows? It would still provide no proof to anyone but *me* if I did look up and see chemtrails.

This is a forum for discussion and debate. Again, I appreciate the input, Mr. Reynolds, but I ask kindly, please back off from name calling.

I might add that it appears, Mr. Reynolds, that you went into this research with a eye toward disproving and that could actually place you in the same boat as those you criticize for leaning toward belief. This is not a slam. Just an observation based on your presentation.

To Everyone:

If I am writing out of turn, please excuse this. I am all for debate and intelligent discussion, and this has largely been so, but I am not for attacks on people for beliefs they hold even when they are not in line with mine. If I have an opposing view I simply present that view.

posted 08-06-2001 02:56 AM            

"One last note for you guys:
The record needs to be set straight on something that was touted above.

Thermit
electronically filtered out all aircraft below 31,000 ft during the course of his study of contrails observed over Houston TX last winter. The result of his setting up the filter that way was that any aircraft flying at 30,000 ft would have been "unidentifiable" using Flight Explorer, not because it would have been military, commercial, or anything else.

They would have been "unidentifiable" because he arbitrarily chose to set it up the software that way. His research stands nowhere, it was a waste of time, and is invalid"

posted 08-06-2001 03:26 AM            

12/10/00 03:30 PM -34(temp) 29,000(alt) TAI441(ID) B737(aircaft)

posted 08-07-2001 03:49 PM            

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posted August 07, 2001 07:26
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quote:
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This brings me back to what Amber asked... why is it that debunkers spend so much time and energy in trying to debunk something in which they vehemently disbelieve? Why? Truth here, is not the answer in the case of a debunker. Most of them might say on the surface they want the truth.

A few days ago, I was contacted by one, Colonel Horace Dan Phillips, who I assume is reading this message and this BBS. His message was short and to the point:

quote:
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Mr. Donaldson
I see you are either ex-Air Force or soon to retire. I'd like to discuss
this chemtrail hoax with you. Do you have a number where I can get in
touch?

Thanks.
D-- P-------, Colonel, USAF
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Name and Info edited at request by Thermit

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I quizzed him as to whether this was an official call and why he was contacting me "as an Inspector General". My assumption was rather rash, and that I had "hit the nail on the head" or something.

I have since offered to meet with the good Colonel in any public location he wishes to discuss this material, but I will not discuss it on the telephone. Why? Because I am a member of the media now. This BBS, and Anomalies Network have a duty to provide information to the public. TRUTHFUL information. Therefore I have asked that the Colonel meet me, and left it up to him. I have, as of yet, received no reply.

When someone is contacted directly by a military member asking to discuss "hoaxes" the person either has a vested interest in the material, OR they simply have a strong personal interest. Unfortunately in either case, using a rank associated with this subject tends to skew the light on the subject toward "conspiracy".

If you, Jay, stated you "saw a UFO last night, and it looked like" such and such... then the next day, someone from the military contacted you, do you not think that you'd have all sorts of thoughts running through your head about it?

posted 08-07-2001 03:52 PM            

I am posting this because the study was scheduled to begin around August first this year and there is already equipment set up to monitor the composition of air there.

You see, if during the time this study is conducted there are reports of Chem trails in that region, the monitoring could yield evidence to the yeah or nay as to whether it was chem or con that may be reported, thus providing more factual data to work with.

I know it is only the proposal pdf, but it contains the contact info and parameters for the study. It is apparently to be presented to the public as well upon completion. http://www.mag.maricopa.gov/PUB/rfp/VISIBILITY%20STUDY%20RFP%202.pdf

posted 08-08-2001 11:55 AM            

(chuckles)

Checking me out? What'd I do? (that's addressed to the individual who's gonna check into my background)

I'm totally "for real" people. Ask anyone over at Anomalies. Don't be surprised at what you find (or do not find).

By the way, there's a bio posted on me someplace on the internet. I'll leave it to you to locate.

To the guy who said something about us Air Force types being "clueless"... really, we aren't clueless.

But, understand something, sometimes we pretend to be that way. America is a great country. We DO have a lot of secrets to keep from the prying eyes of enemies and would-be enemies. Countries do not have "friends", they have "interests". Every country is the same.

Now... I'm here because I've been caught up in some things, and I want to make sure you folks see me and see me ALIVE. I want to make sure you all understand, I'm as much of a skeptic about "chemtrails" as the next guy, but I know what I've personally seen. I can id aircraft pretty well. When I see a KC-135, I know what it is. I know what a KC-10 is, I've seen thouands of C-130s, C-141s and C-5s (I've seen about 20 C-17s so far). Fighters, I can't ID very well, I'm not big on those.

But... for the love of Mike, when I say I "seen sumthin", I seen it. I am NOT GI Joe. I'm NOT Topgun. I'm one of the best Communications guys the Air Force ever had, and they are gonna miss me when I'm gone. But I'm tired, the Air Force isn't fun any more, and we get more and more creeps in the service these days.

People who do not have ethics and probably can't spell "ethics". We have people who debunk ANYTHING for the wrong reasons.

We have people in this world who see things with their OWN EYES and yet deny, deny, deny. That's the way of the world these days.

Some day, whatever the truth is about these so-called Chem Trails will come out. I hope no one is too disappointed if they discover they are all just contrails.

At the same time, I certainly will not be surprised if they aren't.

Please, do NOT take my message to mean I know more than I am saying. I don't. I do not know. If I had NEVER observed what I saw a couple of years ago, I would be denying it as well today. But, I saw what I saw. I won't lie and say I didn't see it.

If some guys come along and tell me I'm talking about classified material and debrief me (better wear clean underwear, eh?) well, then it will be a different ball game.

I do have one, what I consider to be a valid request, if the sysop here wouldn't mind terribly.

I'd sincerely appreciate it, if you'd be so kind as to removed the Colonel's name from the message posted here. It seems I struck some kinda chord with him and sincerely pissed him off.

Now, I've been kind enough to remove his name from our forum, at his "request", and I'd really appreciate if you'd do the same for me here.

I will understand if you will not, but I can not and will not be responsible for the actions of the good Colonel if he decides to "do something about it".

I will say that at this point, I've taken his letters to me seriously and threateningly. I'm not sure if he really MEANT to threaten me... but, I took it that way. It perhaps has something to do with the fact that one can not observe anothers facial features via email. Perhaps he was joking with me. I hope so....

So.. my friends, you are all welcome to come over to Anomalies and discuss this material there as well, but please remember, like here, there are rules. No name calling, no personal insults... attack the idea, not the person. You all know that, and I've seen that for the most part folks here are very well behaved. I like that in a community.

Take care all. I'll TRY to get over here from time to time, but no promises. I've been kept pretty ragged with the Enterprise Mission BBS (which I am the moderator) not to mention the fact that I administer the entire set of 43 BBSes right now, and have to read each and every message. (Oh, my.. where has the time gone? There must be another 200 messages posted in the time it has taken me to write this much.)

Take care of yourselves... good luck with your hunt, and please, could SOMEONE tell me when they are going to actually do a real scientific analysis of the air around some of these chemtrails?

Folks... the truth is out there... happy hunting.

Rick Donaldson

posted 08-08-2001 12:14 PM            

Yes, the information has been edited at the request of many.