posted 01-08-2002 10:00 PM            

clearly this webpage is devoted to evidence in support of their existance. who wants to argue with that? why they happen is a completely different story, but if all you want to do is bash your skepticism in our faces about their mere existance...sorry, but youre probably outnumbered. being a shallow skeptic about this is like walking into a room and telling me everything ive seen is false. now what would you do? i dare say you would be rather upset that a complete stranger is telling you what you saw. and theres even PHOTOS of this stuff! a broken contrail? a u-turn? webs all over the gound? it doesnt take a genius to see these pictures and think "ya know, i cant explain that". is it just not registering in your head? look at those photos again. look real hard.

even if only ONE case is proven true, then we've got a situation on our hands.

have you ever even considered the possibility that chemtrails are real? ive considered otherwise, and after what i know now, i cant believe they're not real.

think to yourself:
"hmmm. i know i just dont buy it, but have i actually ever really thought about the possibility? seriously thought about it? i know, the whole thing is rediculous...but why is this topic so dang popular? why are these idiots all going crazy over a natural phenomenon? are there really that many stupid people around? yeah, i think i could explain those photos and disprove it all...or could i..."

you know, i think its odd that people go from non-believers to believers (me) but nobody goes from a believer to a non-believer. i wonder...is that just stupidity? hmmm..i think the skeptics are proving otherwise by their blatant off-hand loud-mouthed cursing and ranting, then refusing to elaborate on these awfully intelligent, logical and well thought out remarks people like me are making.

i dare you to present all the information around here to your friends and see whether they buy it. dont want to? think you dont have to because it's just so obvious? then stop talking. i think i can say that if every person in america looked at all the information on this site, most would be pretty sure that this is real.

ive told several respectable intelligent adults about this stuff. everyone i have told believes this happens. believe what you may about that, but just think about it for second. (and dont bash me about how im either lying, or how "idiots like me only have idiots for friends". i see it coming from a mile away.)

some of us would rather have a simple, understandable, explainable life.

but i say nay-nay.

posted 01-08-2002 10:38 PM            

quote:

---

i dare say you would be rather upset that a complete stranger is telling you what you saw.

---

Very true, I agree most everyone wouldn't go for that.

quote:

---

you know, i think its odd that people go from non-believers to believers (me) but nobody goes from a believer to a non-believer.

---

Wow, EXELLENT point! I wonder why that could be??
Actually, I could quote your entire post, in agreement.
Welcome.. Oh-Non-Blind one

posted 01-09-2002 01:17 PM            

You bring up some valid points that I would like to respond to. Your comments in "italicized quotes", mine in [brackets].

"If you dont think chemtrails exist, despite actually seeing pictures for yourself, im sorry but...you cant get any more close-minded than that."

[The answers that you might get from skeptics is that pictures of contrails do not prove that they are chemicals any more than pictures of Christmas-presents prove there's a Santa Claus. Most skeptics/debunkers believe that all the contrails and other anomalous sights you see (crossed trails, broken trails, 'dripping' trails, etc.) can be explained by perfectly normal atmospheric phenomena. While the bulk of skeptics do not buy into chemical spraying, most of them say that given some evidence, such as in-situ collection, lidar spectroscopy, etc. of anything anomalous in contrails, they would re-think their position. I would hardly consider that 'close minded'.]

"clearly this webpage is devoted to evidence in support of their existance. who wants to argue with that?"

[People who interpret the evidence differently, of course.]

"... if all you want to do is bash your skepticism in our faces about their mere existance...sorry, but youre probably outnumbered."

[I don't think that disagreeing with someone else's interpretation of atmospheric phenomena is "bashing your skepticism". And what if I am "probably outnumbered"? The majority is not always right; besides, don't you think you have a right to press your views on the people and mainstream views of America, even though your views are "probably outnumbered"? I believe you do have that right, and I do, too. And I'm not telling you that "everything ive seen is false"; I'm just saying that I disagree with your interpretation and conclusions.]

"... it doesnt take a genius to see these pictures and think "ya know, i cant explain that". is it just not registering in your head?"

[As I mentioned before, most skeptics believe that they can explain these phenomena by other, more mainstream explanations.]

"look at those photos again. look real hard."

[I have been looking at those photos and studying the phenomena for about three years.]

"even if only ONE case is proven true, then we've got a situation on our hands."

[I agree. If you can prove that even ONE case of contrails reflect a deliberate attempt to spray something and cover it up from the American people, then a whole bunch of skeptics, myself included, would have to re-think our views and withdraw at least some of our objections. I know I would.]

"have you ever even considered the possibility that chemtrails are real?"

[Absolutely. I do not trust a lot of things that my government does. It's pretty well documented that they have been pulling secret pranks on their own people since before I was born. I just don't see a strong enough evidentiary case that they are doing this particular mischief. I came to this discussion three years ago with what I consider as open a mind as anyone else. Remember, "open mind" does not mean "someone who sees things my way"; it just means, well, "open mind".]

"you know, i think its odd that people go from non-believers to believers (me) but nobody goes from a believer to a non-believer. i wonder...is that just stupidity?"

[Actually, there are two believers who had been very active in the chemtrail movement (Chickie Deb and Cydoniaquest) who have re-evaluated their beliefs based on their own interpretation of the phenomena and are now very strong skeptics. Of course, this was a bit before your time, but I am sure that many of the veterans of both this board and that of Carnicom will confirm that. Also, there are many people who were actively pro-chemtrail on these boards who are now no longer involved. Do you concede that maybe some of them have re-thought their positions and have found other activities?]

"the skeptics are proving otherwise by their blatant off-hand loud-mouthed cursing and ranting, then refusing to elaborate on these awfully intelligent, logical and well thought out remarks people like me are making."

[I have to admit that there have been many cases of people on both sides of the issue who have let their emotions get the better of them; I am no more immune from such outbursts than you or anyone else. But, as I mentioned in an earlier post to Mr. Thermit today, I had posted what I consider a "logical and well-thought-out" post on my beliefs regarding chemtrails. You can see that post at http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000001.html , and http://pub37.ezboard.com/fchemtrailstruthothoaxfrm1.showMessage?topicID=5.topic .]

[Note that, outside of Mr. Thermit's well-reasoned and courteous response in the first instance, there was never any attempt at a point-by-point evaluation of my comments (to say nothing of any attempt at refutation). In the second example, a pro-chemical researcher calling himself 'Trailmeister' provided the following "logical and well-thought-out" response to my post: "@#%$ you and your lies. You are only digging a hole for your soul. Keep up the "good" work. And... Have a nice day.... @#%$."]

[My point is not that everyone who believes in chemtrails is a potty-mouth and every skeptic is a saint; far from it! But invective seems to cut both ways, wouldn't you think?]

"... dont bash me about how im either lying, or how "idiots like me only have idiots for friends". i see it coming from a mile away."

[I certainly do not intend to "bash" you, nor do I think you're lying, nor do I believe that you only have "idiots for friends". I do intend to share my beliefs and opinions, and will try to do so in as courteous and consistent manner as I can. I can only hope that you and the other posters in this room will do the same. Is that too much to ask?]

Regards,

posted 01-09-2002 09:15 PM            

{HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Ohmygawd that's funny Duncan.}

From 17 Techniques for Truth Suppression:

2. Wax indignant. This is also known as the "How dare you?" gambit.

4. Knock down straw men. Deal only with the weakest aspects of the weakest charges. Even better, create your own straw men. Make up wild rumors (or plant false stories) and give them lead play when you appear to debunk all the charges, real and fanciful alike.

9. Come half-clean. This is also known as "confession and avoidance" or "taking the limited hangout route." This way, you create the impression of candor and honesty while you admit only to relatively harmless, less-than-criminal "mistakes." This stratagem often requires the embrace of a fall-back position quite different from the one originally taken. With effective damage control, the fall-back position need only be peddled by stooge skeptics to carefully limited markets.

13. Change the subject. This technique includes creating and/or publicizing distractions.

posted 01-09-2002 10:25 PM            

It's always a pleasure to know that my humble attempts at writing can bring joy and amusement to others.

posted 01-10-2002 01:29 AM            

i was aiming my statements at those who are loud-mouth holy-crusaders who cant see past their own nose. you're clearly not one of them.

it looks like we're at opposite ends of the "smart-spectrum". i suppose only time will tell...

posted 01-10-2002 07:55 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ophello:
duncan:

i was aiming my statements at those who are loud-mouth holy-crusaders who cant see past their own nose. you're clearly not one of them.

---

Stick around Ophello! And, welcome to the jungle!!

BTW, I've seen chemtrails too!!

posted 01-11-2002 10:19 AM            

One of the many reasons Duncan spends time here is to study poetry.
He has "High Hopes" of becoming
the poet laureate of the Hoaxters "Bored."
http://pub31.ezboard.com/fcontrailsandchemtrails22884frm1.showMessage?topicID=224.topic

Now keep in mind the following statement by Duncan.

Remember, "open mind" does not mean "someone who sees things my way"; it just means, well, "open mind".

Patrick .... Are You Ready ???
Hum along or strum along with the
"Mensan Minstrel of Mesa"

Author
D Kunz
Registered User
Posts: 45
(1/4/02 10:36:54 am)

Fifty Miles of Plain Contrails

...with apologies to Paul Simon

(Intro vamp)
|Em/G | D(6) | Cmaj7 | B7-9 | Em | D#dim7 | F#dim7 | B+
|Em/G | D(6) | Cmaj7 | B7-9 | Em | Am7 | Em | Em
| Em | Am7 | Em | Em

"The answer is all inside your head," he said to me.
"Take a hundred percent relative humiditee,
At about minus forty give or take a small degree,
And you'll have -- fifty miles of plain contrails.
Fifty miles of plain contrails."

"There ain't no barium nor aluminum, you know,
There ain't no blood cells or bad bac-ter-i-o,
It's just plain spider-webs in you super-flashlight's glow,
You just have -- fifty miles of plain contrails.
Fifty miles of plain contrails."

(Chorus)
"So use common sense, Rense,
Stop smokin' that spliff, Cliff,
Quit tootin' that blow, Lo,
And listen to me."

"You're just peddlin' jive, folks,
Everyone's still alive, folks,
So just take five, folks,
And get yourself free".

(interlude vamp)

"I know you took those contrail pictures without pause,
But pictures of Christmas presents don't prove there's Santa Claus,
And there's a difference between a cheap hoax and a cause,
You still have -- fifty miles of plain contrails.
Fifty miles of plain contrails."

"I know it's fun to hang with whacks out on the 'Net,
But if you got a life and tried hard not to fret,
No one will laugh at you and that's a sucker bet,
'Cause it's just -- fifty miles of plain contrails.
Fifty miles of plain contrails."

(chorus)

(Vamp out)

posted 01-17-2002 03:03 PM            

¡Muchas gracias para todo de la la publicidad -y gratis, también! I didn't want to post it here and have to put up with all the requests for MP3's, autographs, backstage passes, etc. from folks like chem11 and defender, but I guess the cat's out of the bag, as it were LOL....

The good news is that the Red Mountain Bluegrass Band will be playing next Saturday at the Storyteller Café; the bad news is that we won't be playing the "fifty miles" song. The (further) good news is that I hope to make another CD, this time with Mark Sky and Don Bradley, as soon as we can all agree on the politics of the message. I'll keep you all informed, and will get back to you as soon as I get the URL for the fan-club website.

Have fun, and don't forget the fan-club motto: "A day without Dunk makes you feel like a punk".

Regards,