posted 01-12-2002 02:11 PM            

No hard feelings Chip?? Dunk??

If it's any compensation, it's not a law... yet. Remember that they shot down Senator/Astronaut John Glenn when he tried to end Non-consensual Human Experimentation in the United States!! /

_____________________________________________

"Enron! Enron! Enron!"

posted 01-12-2002 03:28 PM            

I have seen some interesting correspondence between Ms. Deb Phalen and Dr. Carol Rosin of the "peaceinspace" organization, where Ms. Phalen asked Dr. Rosin how it was that a bill to "outlaw weapons in space" includes 'chemtrails' which, even in the eyes of chemtrail-protagonists,

May not be weapons (some have hypothesized that they are use to block radiation or provide some sort of aerosol immunization); and

Are definitely not is space (many chemtrail protagonists claim aircraft are 'spraying chemtrails' at very low altitudes, and almost all chemtrail advocates believe that chemtrails are being sprayed at normal commercial aircraft altitudes, i.e., 8000-10000 meters).

Dr. Rosin did not reply with her views, but quoted a Canadian attorney, who said,

"As the Canadian chemtrails research confirms, the chemtrails program is a joint official program of the US and Canadian Air Forces. This involves spraying undertermined [sic] substances into the atmosphere. Many theories exist as to what these substances are and for what purposes. None of these uses can be deemed beneficial. The Kucinich legislation and the world treaty bans the release of chemtrails into the upper atmospshere [sic] and into the ozne [sic] layer from a space-based platform." This legislation is designed to cover any and all possible intended space-based weapons systems." Quote by: Attorney Alfred Webre, Vancouver, Canada

Leaving aside the question as to whether or not any Canadian chemtrail research exists, or whether it truly confirms such a “joint official program”, the structure of the Kucinich bill provides some fascinating insights.

1. If Kucinich has the real info and is not being led around by the nose, then we now know that all those contrails we’re seeing are not really chemtrails after all, because ‘chemtrails’ are space-based weapons, and the jet aircraft to not fly in space. Either that, or the chemtrails emitted by aircraft are not covered under the bill, because the bill very specifically limits its ban to weapons based above 60 km or about 190,000 feet. No aircraft with which I am familiar can fly that high.

2. Again, if Kucinich is onto the truth, we also know that all the hypotheses about chemtrails being sprayed to inoculate us against TBD diseases, or to ameliorate global warming, are – and always have been – bogus. Chemtrails – at least the way Kucinich’s bill looks at them -- are weapons, pure and simple.

3. If Kucinich, who as a congress-critter is one of TPTS, is against this bill, then you have TPTS trying to stop a TPTS program. This pretty much brings into question the idea of TPTS as an all-powerful and monolithic cabal.

I tend to agree with Thermit on this, where he says “To me, this Bill, isn't about proving Chemtrails real, or even stopping Chemtrails, it's an opportunity for increasing public awareness of this….”

It will be fascinating to see how this plays out. It appears:

1. It has to survive three committee hearings: “…referred to the Committee on Science, and in addition to the Committees on Armed Services, and International Relations, for a period to be subsequently determined by the Speaker….”;

2. If it survives the three House committees, to be submitted to the full House (which is determined solely by Tom Daschle) and then passed by the full House;

3. Be introduced by someone in the US Senate (and I don’t know if a US Senator has sponsored the bill), go through the three or so Senate committees, be read out on the Senate floor and passed by the Senate;

4. Survive a Conference Committee markup to get the two bills (which probably would’ve been modified in either or both of the Houses) back to one;

5. Signed by President Bush, whom, given the successful passage of his humongous defense bill (which includes the airborne and spaceborne laser weapons programs awarded to you-know-who), and his dislike for treaties which put the US at a disadvantage, and his and the American peoples’ distrust for any UN-related enterprise, might be a bit hesitant about signing such a bill into law.

But even if you figure there is a 50% chance of each of these things happening, the statistical probability of the bill becoming law would be (given the 12 steps needed) 0.5^12, or 0.000244140625, which is two-one hundredths of one percent chance of its passage.

But, like Thermit says, it would definitely bring chemtrails (or at least Mr. Kucinich) into public scrutiny.

Regards,

posted 01-12-2002 07:48 PM            

1. If Kucinich has the real info and is not being led around by the nose, then we now know that all those contrails we're seeing are not really chemtrails after all, because ‘chemtrails' are space-based weapons, and the jet aircraft to not fly in space. Either that, or the chemtrails emitted by aircraft are not covered under the bill, because the bill very specifically limits its ban to weapons based above 60 km or about 190,000 feet. No aircraft with which I am familiar can fly that high.

Hmmm.... looked to me that the bill specified even non-spaced based weapons.

2) progress toward negotiating, adopting, and implementing the agreement described in section 4.
SEC. 6. NON SPACE-BASED WEAPONS ACTIVITIES.
(2)(A) The terms `weapon' and `weapons system' mean a device capable of any of the following:

……(II) through the use of land-based, sea-based, or space-based systems using radiation, electromagnetic, psychotronic, sonic, laser, or other energies directed at individual persons or targeted populations for the purpose of information war, mood management, or mind control of such persons or populations; or
……(III) by expelling chemical or biological agents in the vicinity of a person.

How could any space based weapons using chemical or biological agents even be expected to reach their targets if they are only used above 60 km limits.? It says " vicinity of a person"... who the heck lives that far out in space I'd like to know?Biological weapons released above 60 km wouldn't reach populations in quantities lethal enough to hurt anyone. I read in the book Biohazard (author Ken Alibek) that the goal of the soviets was to create extremely virulent virus strains and the means to release these weapons as close to their targets as possible. Biologicals released in space would be pointless.

2. Again, if Kucinich is onto the truth, we also know that all the hypotheses about chemtrails being sprayed to inoculate us against TBD diseases, or to ameliorate global warming, are – and always have been – bogus. Chemtrails – at least the way Kucinich's bill looks at them -- are weapons, pure and simple.

Sure we have lots of theories about the uses of chemtrails... since no one has come forward with the real truth yet. Kucinich's bill says they are exotic weapons... Guess that means they're no at all for our good....but something designed with a sinister purpose.
(B) Such terms include exotic weapons systems such as--
……(i) electronic, psychotronic, or information weapons;
……(ii) chemtrails;
……(iii) high altitude ultra low frequency weapons systems;
……(iv) plasma, electromagnetic, sonic, or ultrasonic weapons;
……(v) laser weapons systems;
……(vi) strategic, theater, tactical, or extraterrestrial weapons; and
……(vii) chemical, biological, environmental, climate, or tectonic weapons.
(C) The term `exotic weapons systems' includes weapons designed to damage space or natural ecosystems (such as the ionosphere and upper atmosphere) or climate, weather, and tectonic systems with the purpose of inducing damage or destruction upon a target population or region on earth or in space.

Seems clear enough to me what they meant. If something was sprayed that far out in space we wouldn't even see it...there would be no debate about this issue.

I happen to have the opinion that this bill encompasses too broad an area of weapons...for this reason it would probably have a hard time passing since so much time, research and money has been invested in these weapons not to use them.... The one good thing I see here, is that it does place chemtrails in the category it deserves... it's an exotic weapon....capable of doing harm. If nothing else, it seems that should stir up the interest of a few more concerned individuals to do their own research and learn more about this issue.

Actually I'm glad I had the chance to read this bill since the mention of mind control now has more credibility and deserves my time to research and learn a little more about the subject
.......looks like I'll never run out of subjects to research.

posted 01-13-2002 09:01 AM            

Indeed, HR2977 is their "proof" of the existence of chemtrails.

posted 01-13-2002 10:20 AM            

Rense and Bell kept the myth alive for those without access to the Internet.

Don't know what myth you are referring to Deb, but like msswv, I don't need any webmaster telling me what's real and what's not.

Until then your attempt at defaming others does little to convince me of your true intention and sincerity as a fellow citizen of this planet....ms

Good point ms! It's hard to believe the debunkers are concerned for us and our beliefs when all they do is name-call and ridicule and call us 'crazy'. Says more about the debunker crowd than it does about us activists, wouldn't you say?

posted 01-13-2002 10:25 AM            

For future reference, here is one of the Science Forum rules:

posted 01-13-2002 12:24 PM            

I am now going to veer off a bit but please endure with me and I will get back to what I see as the significance of this bill.

I have been a long time watcher of clouds. Moving from Oregon in 93' where I enjoyed an incredible view of open spaces and mountains to an incredibly flat densly populated Florida geography I, in missing my former view, substituted cloud watching to ease my longing for diverse elevations in wide open spaces. This track of my cloud watching provides me ample datums of magnitude from which to evaluate changes I may observe in the sky overhead. Six months ago a lady working in a health food store in Harrison, Arkansas told me about chemtrails and said look for an X in the sky. Later that day while swimming in a beautiful lake I looked up and there was this big X in the sky right over my head. Until then I had never seen such a deliberate looking X pattern of "contrails" although now I had the word chemtrail to use. For the next several days while traveling aroun NW Ar I observed numerous X patterns in the sky. I started bringing the subject up to others and only saw dull blank expressions in response. Oh yes, there was some laughter and rolling of the eyes on a few occassions.

Attending the public school system in this country, thourouly schools (does not educate) the students to accept data, as truth, from a limited number of sources ie., authoritative figures (teachers, doctors, politicians,parents, etc.), newspapers, books, and the TV news. The students, for the most part, have never been encouraged to question "authority" nor to evaluate the data they were being fed. Instead the data came pre-evaluated. So, being able to accept data from a variety of sources, look at it objectively and evaluate it against other data that is known then make one of three posssible decisions (correct, incorrect or maybe/pending) is not a skill that is highly developed among the US population. This is why mainstream media is such a useful tool in shaping and steering the collective US mind.

A synonym for reality is agreement. People confuse actuality and reality. For example: I look up and see a chemtrail. That's my reality. The person next to me looks up and sees jetplane exhaust. That's their reality. Now if this person and I have a discussion about what we are seeing above and we exchange our data about the subject one result could be that one or the other of us has a change in reality (agreement) and now we both see the same thing when we look up. We have a shared reality and this shared reality increases the degree of liking we have for one another as well as increases our willingness to continue communicating, at least on this subject. But with all of this, we still aren't looking at an actuality only a reality because neither one of us has discovered the truth about what we're observing.

We, in this forum share a common reality in regards to the existence of chemtrails. That's how we found our way here. From there the realities sift into various sizes of subgroups with varying peculiarities/ agreements. Now each member of this group has his or her own sphere of influence, that is; those people around them (near or far) that they have communication lines with. And believe me, each one of us has a sphere of influence much broader than we could ever imagine. Our chemtrail reality group is small. How many people around you share your reality of chemtrails? Answering for myself, the number is a microfraction of those in my sphere of influence. I want and intend to change that.

In this small community of Ar where I now reside, the sky is full (daily) of chemtrails but those chemtrails are not within the reality of others who live in this community. However, weather and any talk about the weather is very much within the collective community reality. Therefore, when someone originates a comment about the weather I drive a wedge in. I say, with some visible concern in my voice
and face, "I'm really wondering about all this weather control that's going on aren't you?" They look at me puzzled but sorta nodding in unknowing agreement. I say, "Yeah, you know all these jets flying over and those big trails they're leaving in the sky? Well, that's not just jet exhaust. They seem to be dumping something and apparently it has something to do with weather control. It's really very controversial." Now I can add, "Right now in the 107th Congress there's even a bill, H.R. 2977, that mentions these things. They're calling them chemtrails, short for chemical trails, and chemtrails are being classified as weapons. Can you bellieve that." The wedge has been driven. The reality points: weather, control, controversial, and the primo reality point - bill in Congress. Remember, we have been conditioned to accept, as truth, data from certain sources and there's this subliminal datum many carry around, "If it's written it's true." Bill in Congress equals a reality that many can very easily slide right into.

We, as a group, have a reality and we are in search of an actuality (truth). On the road to actuality we must shift the reality regarding chemtrails of those around us. And we do that because it is an empirical fact that group agreement rules. Having chemtrails written in a bill of Congress is an incredible tool to use in shifting the reality of those around us. And that's what I'm about on this subject. I want to know what the hell is actually going on and shifting the reality of our population on this matter is a key step. I consider H.R. 2977 a wonderful win toward this end.

Thanks to you all for everything you are doing on this subject.

posted 01-13-2002 06:01 PM            

Thank you 3T3L1, LuLu and Catnip 57 for your feedback. I'm glad that you could track with me.

LuLu, I know that if I was back in the Tampa Bay, Fl area around my friends, having shared agreement with those I know there would not be an issue. However, I no longer live in that environment and being here is quite different. My reality is very different than many of those around me but that's a whole other story.

A little while ago, today, I was purusing the TimeBomb 2K forum (www.timebomb2000.com) and happened to find a thread in the active forum on page 5 that had to do with Pres George Bush coming out with a public utterance on chemtrails. Wow!!

This posting was originated by Wise Owl. Wise Owl claims to have heard John Stadmiller, host of theIntelligence Report aired on Genesis Communication Radio (www.m2ktalk.com/genisiscom.htm) Mon - Fri 5-7 p.m. est. read from some??? newspaper that GW would be telling us about chemtrails.

This created quite a flurry of activity on that thread.

Reading through the postings I could find nothing to validate Wise Owl's origination, but... It does bring up a good what if?

What if GW suddenly comes out and inform us about chemtrails? Why would he do that? Well, here's something I suppose.

Now I have observed a marked increase in chemtrail activity in my area for the past two months. On the weekends I take long drives and I've yet to go anywhere where there isn't blatant chemtrail activity. So, what if the plan was to really put the pedal to the metal on dumping ????? into our airspace? To escalate to such a point that it would move even the most hardcore skeptic into asking what the hell is going on.

When people ask a question they want an answer. And there are some people who have practically no tolerance at all in waiting through the period of time from asking a question to getting the answer. These people develop "answer hunger" and will accept anything or conjure up something to satisfy this hunger for an answer. Bad stuff this answer hunger. Having an aswer, though, makes them feel better also - no need for more questions. Another phenomena that occurs with this is that the answer received will frequently become fixed by the person (whether the answer is true or false is irrelevant - hell the person never bothered to evaluate it anyway). Now, having this fixed answer new incoming data will not be accepted over it.

Let's role play. I'm the President GW. I've been made aware of something that is being done that would not be okay if people found out. I am advised that this activity is being escalated to extremely obvious proportions and could create adverse reactions from the populace. What to do? I'm told to do this (I'm not smart enough to think of this on my own): I'm told to make a public statement that not only answers the question but asks it. I position this activity with national security and the public's welfare. The population, in general, is stressed and in fear, therefore, easily controled. I'm the country's prime authoritative figure and my answer that I've been given to deliver fixates in the contry's collective mind. Now when chemtrails are seen or mentioned everybody, because they've been fed "The Government issued Answer", knows exactly what they are. If anyone or any group is saying different well.... group agreement (reality) rules. There's a myraid of ways to deal with these dissidents. Don't you know?

Allow me to say that I am not against our government nor do I believe government to be bad. There are, though, bad people intrenched within our government and these are the ones that have always been giving us hell and misery. They, quite adroitly, continually use our government against us while most of us run around chasing the wrong target.

Hoople

posted 01-13-2002 06:51 PM            

Key People Involved In Creating
HR 2977 Space Preservation Act
From Brenda Livingston
living@airmail.net
1-13-2

posted 01-14-2002 01:54 PM            

I like to see your observations about people that confirm my beliefs about the state of America (not just AK). People want answers, in part because we know we've been lied to by TPTB day after day, decade after decade and we are more aware of it, I think, than ever before in regards to chemtrails, government corruption;FBI/CIA/FDA, political assassinations etc.

Also in a previous post, your observations about school, and a lack, or loss of younger peoples ability or desire to question authority. And that people nod in agreement when you point out chemtrails, due in part, sadly I think, to a willingness on Americans part to believe anything they are told, whether it's true or not. I've seen chemtrails, photographed them... but we as a country are so brainwashed by TPTB that it may take a little (or a lot of) face to face human contact to point out the obvious to the rest of us still on the wage-slave treadmill, 'disinfo-tainment' merry-go-round. When people have the facts, they can judge for themselves, but they won't get these facts from the corporate controlled main-stream media.

As far as how Bush may respond to chemtrails, the first line of defense (whether it's true or not) might be to tell us that they exist as either weather control, or having failed at that attempt, that they are to innoculate us from chem/bio-warfare. That could be easily swallowed due to the media blitz of the Anthrax threat/scare following 9/11. If that happens, it may then be 'revealed' that this is the case, though it may also cause illness/death in some cases, but that's preferable to millions dying when the real attacks do come? That could justify secrecy re;chemtrails/National Security? But, it sure as hell does not represent the workings of a democracy as the U.S./TPTB claim the United States to be, does it?

My other thought would be that the Nazi/TPTB/FEMA etc. element in U.S./Europe Governments are deliberately culling the population, or just testing biowarfare chemicals, public reaction without regard to loss of human life, ala (as opposed to Allah), Non-consensual Human Experimentation. Guess we've been through all this before...

If we have already been attacked (unmanned/UFO spraying? or TPTB?), there could be wide-spread panic as has been speculated in regards to UFO secrecy. Also, if airborne innoculation (if that's what it is) also kills off elderly, children, asthmatics, etc. how could Bush ever reveal that? Or, is it even possible that Bush and the U.S. military really have no control over chemtrails? If not, that would explain the coverup.

Anyway, thanks for your participation, Hoople! You've got me thinking again, dangerous as that may be?

posted 01-14-2002 02:01 PM            

Thanks for that info. I wondered what had happened to Daniel Sheehan. Hoped he hadn't been suicided by now. I first heard of him from the now-defunct (destroyed?) Christic Institute where he was chief counsel in attempts to prosecute the CIA in the alleged bombing murders (La Penca) of two American reporters who were instrumental in uncovering Iran-Contra connections in Nicaragua during mid-80's.

Two celebrity supporters of Christic Institute were actor Raul Julia (who portrayed the assassinated priest in El Salvador? in a movie titled??? ), and Elizabeth Montgomery (from TV's Bewitched), both of whom died shortly after their involvement with the Christic Institute.

_____________________________________________

quote:

---

Astronaut Dean Mitchell (on ICIS Advisory Board)

Chairman, ICIS Advisory Board Astronaut Edgar Dean Mitchell, Sc.D. was lunar module pilot on Apollo 14, spending a record 33 hours and 31 minutes on the lunar surface...

---

posted 01-15-2002 12:06 AM            

Rep. Kucinich's HR 2977
Names Chemtrails As
An 'Exotic Weapon'
By Lorie Kramer
seektress@ev1.net
1-10-2

After years of denial from government, military, and environmental agencies, the reality of the controversial issue regarding the covert programs known as Chemtrails has been acknowledged.

On October 2, 2001 Congressman Dennis Kucinich, Ohio introduced H. R. 2977 during the 1st Session of the 107th Congress of the United States. The "Space Preservation Act of 2001" seeks to "preserve the cooperative, peaceful uses of space for the benfit of all humankind by permanently prohibiting the basing of weapons in space by the United States, and to require the President to take action and implement a world treaty banning space-based weapons."

In the bill Chemtrails are listed as an "exotic weapons system". Ironically in Section 7 - Definitions. The complete text of the bill may be found at Clifford Carnicom's website, "Chemtrail Crimes and Coverup Documented".

The bill also addresses such things as particle beams, electromagnetic radiation, plasma, or extremely low frequency (ELF) or ultra low frequency (ULF) energy radiation, and mind-control as weapons. All of these areas have been researched and pondered by those investigating chemtrails and working to gain accountability for those programs.

They can't have it both ways. Water vapor is not a weapon.

This is a call to all those of conscience. This is a time when action is needed. It is time. The lies have gone on long enough. We can tell the Air Force and the Navy and the other agencies involved in this criminal activity, "No, You may NOT own the Weather ...Period!" We may not have another chance.

On behalf of the members of Chemtrail Tracking USA, Clifford Carnicom's Board, Chemtrail Central and the many other groups and individuals working diligently to get accountability, we urge your listeners to respond. Contact government and media, demand answers. If not now, when?

We know what we see. We did not consent. We want it stopped.

To see text of HR 2977: http://www.carnicom.com/hr2977.htm


Rep. Kucinich's Bill is also listed at this US Government site:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/L?c107:./list/c107h.lst:2901


Note regarding particulars of HR 2977 -

The 'Space Preservation Act of 2001' deals mainly with space as defined by ALTITUDE. Granted, we don't receive reports of chemtrails or contrails in space.

The bill states "SEC. 7. DEFINITIONS. In this Act:

(1) The term 'space' means all space extending upward from an altitude greater than 60 kilometers above the surface of the earth and any celestial body in such space."

However, in Section 7, 2 (C) it states.

"The term 'exotic weapons systems' includes weapons designed to damage space or NATURAL ECOSYSTEMS (such as the ionosphere and upper atmosphere) or CLIMATE, WEATHER, and tectonic systems with the purpose of inducing damage or destruction upon a target population or region on earth or in space." (emphasis added.)

This would definately include the altitude at which chemtrails are found.

In addition, in Section 7 - Definitions, it is stated in (2)(A) "The terms 'weapon' and 'weapons system' mean a device capable of any of the following: (ii) Inflicting death or injury on, or damaging or destroying, a person (or the biological life, bodily health, mental health, or physical and economic well-being of a person)--(III) by expelling chemical or biological agents in the vicinity of a person."

Here, of course, the word "vicinity" would need further definition. But chemtrails fit the bill (pun intended) as a weapons program that is threatening the biological life, bodily health, mental health, and the physical and economic well-being of millions of people.

HR 2977 has a lot to be desired as a bill in relation to chemtrails. This in no way negates the fact that chemtrails have been named as an exotic weapon in a congressional document.

For battle weary chemtrail researchers and activists, this is very important. Whether Rep. Kucinich intended it or not, he has handed us the can opener to the biggest can of worms he has probably ever seen. We intend, with our flags in hand, and as loud a voice as can be collectively gathered, to open the can. -LK

Comment

From Diane Harvey
merak@sedona.net
1-11-1

Dear Jeff:

I would like if I may to add a few comments to Lori Kramer's excellent post. Everyone interested in this issue needs to read this bill and print it out if they can. It's important first of all to understand exactly what is in it, and this is not difficult. Next I would implore every person who has experienced ongoing frustration and/or outright physical suffering from these secret programs to pick up the telephone and call your representative as soon as possible. *DO IT*. There has never been an opportunity like this one before. Each representative of course has a copy of this bill and is obliged to know what is in it. We finally have the naked word itself- "CHEMTRAILS"- on a document being read by our elected officials. Please do not let this chance go by. For the first time you can speak to your representatives with the power of a government document in your own hand. Using this one simple and suddenly "legal" word, you can politely and intelligently explain your concerns and they will be obliged for a change to listen.

I would also like to offer some technical advice to all concerned citizens as to the best way to be effective. Calling your representative and becoming upset about a plot to kill people, for instance, would be the worst possible tactic to take. I just got off the telephone with an aide in my representative's office. You too can expect to speak to an aide rather than your representative, and please take that person very seriously. How this person receives your communication will determine exactly how and if it will be passed on to your representative. The way you present your case will determine whether you are written off as just another crank or listened to seriously as a reasonable human being with a leg mate complaint. Think out ahead of time about what you are going to say. Be very matter of fact and concise. And above all, remain calm. Do not lose your temper, insult anyone, or offer any unproven theories as to the ultimate purpose of chemtrails. These would all be seriously counterproductive actions. What matters here is legitimizing the years of private efforts of a relatively small number of people who have worked so hard on behalf of every citizen of this country. Therefore, if you care about the issue itself, please refrain from making things worse for our cause by indulging in emotional reactions and exotic theorizing, however personally satisfying such behavior might be to you in the short run. Please believe it: how we naturally feel about chemtrails is no guide to the best way to speak intelligently and therefore effectively to government representatives about our concerns.

It would be of enormous value if everyone in this country who cares about this issue would also seize the day and write reasonable letters to as many elected officials as possible, using this bill as a foundation and a talking point. It's not hard to write a short letter asking that the existence of chemtrails once and for all *be admitted*. Because this is the first step in the long process of disclosure. It is certainly rational to point out that we are funding this project, and the continuing denial of its existence in the face of blatant reality is entirely UNACCEPTABLE.

This is a great opportunity for all of us to unite at the same time, around the same event, and therefore finally to make our concerns heard. I pray that we have the collective sense to use this golden opportunity, and to use it wisely.

Diane Harvey
merak@sedona.net

posted 01-15-2002 11:52 PM            

You know, any datum is only as valuable as it can be compared against another datum. For example: My observation of the state of America against that of my Russian immigrant friend or my Hungarian immigrant friend would be amazingly different.

Both of my immigrant friends are incredible people who somehow managed to make their way out of very severe circumstances where being surpressed by TPTB was an extremely overt experience. They both have horrible unbelievable stories to tell about their lives in those countries. The state of America looks really good to these two guys.

In America TPTB have not been able to be so overt in their supression although this, in my opinion, has changed markedly in just the past few years which is not a good indicator for us Freedom Fighters. The blatant prescense of CTs in our skys is a good example of how much more overt TPTB have become.

defender, have you ever had the experience of being overwhelmed? Well, if you have, you know that it's not a pleasant experience. It feels like you lose all your space and you actually do because you cave in. You interiorize when you're overwhelmed. Now, I consider that the people who have found their way to this forum and especially those who participate, are individuals who compose an upper bracket of society. Now, I'm not saying that as a referrence to being "better than" but as a referrence to being "more aware than" - not as brainwashed (it's all in degrees of by my way of thinking). All I'm relly saying is that this group of people, generally speaking, can handle looking at more truth, without becoming overwhelmed, than a lot of others can.

We know we are under attack and we know that it isn't just from chemtrails. No, we're being attacked from a myraid of angles. But I have to tell you something defender, if I begin to focus on too many of these sources of attacks at once I feel myself begin to waiver. I begin to feel not quite as strong and I become less effective because I'm too focused on too many obstacles. A group like this one is very important because there is strength in numbers and there's pleasure in being around others who's aware of what's going on and that helps to keep from getting overwhelmed by it all.

Most people, though, are on a very short leash. It doesn't take mush to truth to overwhelm them. They're burdened, they're stressed, they're tired because of too many failures in the pursuit of their purpose, they're fearful and their awarness doesn't extend very far beyond the immediate problem in front of their face. This is not by chance it's most definitely by design.

Mainstream media is the sheepherder and, for me, the only worth in watching the news and reading a newspaper is to see what the sheepherders are up to and where the herd is being moved ie., what reality is the herd being moved into now?

In my experience, there are many people that I run into and have short conversations with and these people don't want to hear about another problem - they've got plenty already. On the other hand, they don't want someone else to solve their problem for them either. If they say they do don't believe them. What they want is for someone to agree with them on what a horrible problem they have. Once they get that agreement they'll begin to solve it. Sounds weird I know but try it out and you'll see for yourself how it works. I think one of the most damaging insults you can give another is to sove their problem for them.

So CTs, I was looking at a few today and took a moment to realize what question I was asking and repeatedly asked about these CTs. The question: "What is it that they're dumping?" So that question has now taken me on a search for a method of testing what is in the air where I live. If any of you have suggestions on this I'd like to hear them.

posted 01-16-2002 10:06 AM            

I can sympathize with some of your feelings, but I don't know what you mean about solving other peoples problems? When I make references to conspiracies other than chemtrails, I'm trying to show relationships to what may be The Big Picture, ....that 'all roads lead to Rome'. I don't have any control over people who may be overwhelmed by information not related to chemtrails.

My goal here is directed more to the government entities who lurk here at CC as opposed to 'sheople'. In fact, I doubt that very many members at CC would fall into that (sheople) category. Some visitors might be overwhelmed, but there are many other members who have their own points of view, and anyone is free to comment or 'change channels' (hate to have to make that TV reference, but, you get the idea).

If these government groups/individuals are made more aware of some of these conspiracies and our feelings about them, that can only lead to positive change, IMO. I do make postings related to unexplained deaths/assassinations, but not for the purpose of frightening or overwhelming anyone. I take the chemtrail issue very seriously, especially in light of the conspiracies I post in 'Other Trails'.

As I've mentioned in some other posts, government agencies like FBI, KGB, CIA, FDA, U.S. Army/Navy/AF (and most corporations for that matter) are compartmentalized. Their members/employees often work on a 'need to know' basis and are often unaware of what the overall objective is. In some cases (like chemtrail operations?) I know that participants are even given disinformation about what they are doing.

Aside from the ability to get a message across to influential goverment groups in this chatroom format, it's also a way to get all or some of the pieces together for any interested parties to see what we can make of them in regards to the overall Big Picture. That's how we learn. That's how we solve problems.

As far at TPTB goes, the fact that most overt authoritarian oppression has happened in Russia/Warsaw Pact countries/China, I agree that we in the U.S. and NATO 'free world' have had a better 'standard of living'. But, as you know, times are changing here in the U.S. and worldwide in a number of ways. One thing that seems to be constant though, is this power elite or what we've called TPTB. Yes, I'd rather live here in the U.S. than Afghanistan or anywhere in Asia or Africa for that matter, but ignoring or even downplaying misuse of power will not make it go away.

Since WWII the power elite/TPTB seem to carry out their genocidal operations in third world countries for the most part. I think that this fact alone is reason enough to be upset, especially relative to chemtrails. Maybe we need to be overwhelmed?

Being overwhelmed (in a different way) IMO is in fact a 'mission objective' of TPTB through manipulation of media/entertainment/drugs etc. That's why some people are weary, not concerned with another problem. I still believe that The Truth will set you free.

Your method of gently breaking the news in face-to-face meetings may be more appropriate as opposed to confrontations (not really what I had in mind). However, the Internet is the best chance we have at getting to the truth, IMO, which is far more important than offending or upsetting anyones belief systems.

posted 01-16-2002 12:36 PM            

Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."

posted 01-16-2002 02:57 PM            

quote:

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JANUARY 15, 2002 UPDATE: CONGRESSMAN TO REWORD, RESUBMIT HR 2977
Moonbow Media was told today that Congressman Kucinich, D-Ohio, will rewrite, reword and resubmit HR 2977, the Space Preservation Act of 2001 - Weaponization of Space in two weeks. Moonbow learned of this today when I called Congressman Kucinich's office in Ohio and asked for a definition of the word "chemtrails" as it appears in HR 2977 bill that was submitted to Congress on October 2, 2001. I was told that I was the first person to call about the wording of that bill and also the first person to ask about the word "chemtrails" in it. Apparently, the Congressman's office is not aware that Chemtrails are a large phenomena on the internet and it appeared that no one in his office knew anything about what a "chemtrail" actually was! They were apparently equally not aware that HR 2977 has become the subject of controversy in that it lists "chemtrails" along side other military "space weapons" technology (see bill listed here). Kucinich's office asked for Moonbow's URL so that they could become more familiar with what "chemtrails" are all about. If Moonbow readers will remember, I posed the question a week ago about the use of the word "chemtrails" in Congressman Kucinich's bill as it is a word coined by journalist Will Thomas and not by a military weapons program. I found it curious that it would find its way into a bill aimed at the Weaponization of Space without any apparent definition of what it was and what type of military weapons program it referred to. See other articles from January 7th below. I have requested, still, a definition from Congressman Kucinich regarding the use of the word "chemtrails" as doing so has now opened an incredible can of worms for him and the onus of explanation of why he chose to include the phenomena of "chemtrails" in his bill is imminent. Stay tuned for upcoming developments.

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