posted 03-05-2002 01:28 PM            

Yes, Deb. And I concluded that they were probably contrails. Thermit concluded the same thing about most of the trails he observed.

posted 03-05-2002 02:31 PM            

of course not, but it could mean that JP-8 has a higher sulfate content...

posted 03-05-2002 04:26 PM            

a question, you have mentioned this photo, which in the background is the "contrail induced cirrus" that canex is talking about...with *strips* in the foreground that you are talking about...leading into the muk...

why would you think, if this photo is a similar phenomena to what your describing, would these two strips appear to start contrailing when entering the pocket of contrail induced cirrus ?

posted 03-06-2002 03:31 AM            

I believe the correct question is "Why did chemtrails become such a thing on the internet circa 1999?" In ether case, I can only give my opinion. These ultra-persistent trails have always been there but most people have not been aware of them. I wasn’t aware until 1993 when I spent an afternoon watching contrail after contrail laid down and spread out into older contrails that had already spread and formed a nearly overcast cirrus deck. Examples of this "never-noticed-before" phenomenon are often seen on this board and others: The reports of the poster who points out the spreading contrails to their friends, neighbors, and passersby that they should look up at the sky and take notice of those "chemtrails" that are filling up the sky. The responses typically range from "Oh, those are contrails" to "I never noticed that before. That’s terrible." The latter type of responder sometimes becomes a new member on a board. There are more persistent contrails now because there are more flights and aircraft are more efficient. Until 9/11, the commercial miles over the US were growing by 5%/year. That is huge.
Why did people start noticing around 98-99? I am not sure but it may have a lot to do with the press coverage given to the SUCCESS experiment that was designed to learn more about contrails and their relationship to cirrus. CNN, NBC, and NPR all ran stories that showed planes flying behind another plane making a contrail and also satellite loops of the persistent contrails that were studied for the first time. Those persistent contrails lasted more than 17 hours in some cases and led to the formation of cirrus clouds. One of those references on the page pointed out by seeker documents that initial study. The one he specifically linked continues the study.

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In the article the seeker linked for us, Richard Miake-Lye suggested that sulfate aerosols in jet exhaust may be the culprit. Is that still the thinking? Is anything being done to lower sulfate emissions in jet exhaust?

Studies by German researchers and US researchers during SUCCESS found that the sulfate emissions have minimal effect on the formation of the droplets that lead to the contrails. They used regular jet fuel in one engine and low-sulfur fuel in another and still got the contrails although there were a few differences in the characteristics of the resulting ice crystals. The result was basically, "No help there." The main culprit is the water vapor in the exhaust. It raises the humidity high enough to form droplets on just about any ambient aerosol or even without aerosols in some cases.

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I see that this report was done in 1996, it is now 2002 what is being done about it...are we addressings this issue appropriately? Why do people continue to refer to this as NORMAL...I would call affecting the global environment abnormal??....How can we say that it does not affect anyone if it DOES....are there any more recent findings or papers concerning this report??...What type of health effects can we expect from this activity..how will this affect my child's future living environment? Why are we not being informed of progress or solutions to this problem. Could this jet activity be responsible for some of the devastating weather and illness outbreaks occuring around our country at this time...Could this be the cause of the unusual particulate matter dropping out of the skies over populated areas....How is it affecting our terrible drought situation in nation at this time, is it affecting the jet stream?....How do these fuel/chemical/jet trails affect ionization of the air or the electrical/enviromental effect on the human body...Could this possibly be affecting my childrens respiratory function or should I limit exposure on high saturation days?

That’s a lot of questions about a report that is not named. NASA still funds a few aircraft effects studies but not like they did in the 90’s. Lufthansa funds quite a bit of research in Germany. I do not think that there have been any health effect studies unless they were performed by the EPA. There is no reason to believe that contrails (99.9% ice) and aircraft exhaust are health problems unless you live next to an airport. I would worry more about auto exhaust. Aircraft exhaust is at 30,000 ft. Cars are at 2 ft. Despite reports of jet fuel dumping and the occasional "blue ice" report, I am not aware of any unusual particles falling out of the sky from aircraft, exhaust or otherwise. There is a lot of junk sucked up into the atmosphere and deposited far from its source. A lot of insects are cruising around at 1000 ft or so during spring, summer, and fall. One might presume that they are dropping their own little mini canisters of bug stuff. Not to mention all of the spiders and webs and other sources of particulate matter. Researchers in Oklahoma a few years ago sent a net up on a high altitude kite to see what was u there because they kept getting returns on their radars indicating clouds were a few thousand feet up, but they couldn’t see any clouds. They described the net that was brought back down as containing a biological soup. Pilots flying in other experiments over the same area had their windshields covered with bugs at those same altitudes. Can the contrails affect weather? Don’t know. They are small potatoes in a big field (hence minimal funding). However, they might have an effect. It would be very hard to discern. I wouldn’t worry about contrails affecting children’s respiratory tracts. They are at high altitude and have no interaction with the surface.

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Yes, canex, did you forget already?

I forgot about the study, but it does have some open questions like, how high were the unidentified planes (military?) and what were the conditions at those altitudes? The military jets could have been a 1000 ft higher or lower. Blank areas in contrails simply mean that the moisture field is highly variable, a condition that can arise for many meteorological reasons, but is very common and quite visible whenever partly or mostly cloudy conditions occur. My question mainly dealt with the scientific literature that shows massive spreading along heavily used air corridors and from a plane with known characteristics.

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Jet fuel dumping?

posted 03-06-2002 07:48 AM            

Just so the fuel dumping pictures are not dismissed: I don't believe any of those pictures show wingtip vortices. In Wisequakker's series of pictures and in the picture of the F-16 Hornets, none of the aircraft are pulling g's. In any case, it's hard to get wingtip vortices off one wing and not off the other.

As far as the E6 TACAMO, what's coming off its wingtips is probably spy gear. That's why the fuel discharge ports are located closer to the fuselage in that aircraft. I've edited the picture to note that. I tried to indicate on the picture of the Hornets plus the B-52 that only the Hornets are dumping fuel, but perhaps it wasn't clear enough. I've edited that, too. And I've added Chem11's picture of a Hornet dumping fuel in the next post on that thread, so you can compare the original Hornet fuel-dump picture with it. Mark sky believes his picture shows a fuel dump, but it does not look very much like the others, and I would guess that it is not a fuel dump.

fuel dumps should occur well away from populated areas

posted 03-06-2002 01:05 PM            

Well, perhaps briefly;

The first time I observed one of these ultra-persistant spreading trails was mid-1998. It was almost vertical and I assumed it to be the result of some sort of experiment or small rocket lauch, perhaps. I assumed I would hear something about it on the evening news. Of course, I didn't, but I was aware of the phenomena and did not observe further phenomena until 1999, when it became a weekly occurence. It wasn't until later that year (after months of consternation and puzzlement) that I stumbled across other people on the internet reporting the same phenomena.

I always had a crick in my neck, so the idea that the now almost daily spectacle we are treated to somehow escaped my discerning eye is almost impossibly unlikely. And the fact that I did not observe these trails for almost a full year (despite the fact I was specifically looking for them) should serve to give you pause if you choose to re-consider your theory.

Another example:

I have been going to Joshua Tree National Park regularly for the last, oh, 14 years. I lived in LA for a time and enjoyed, as many do, the comapritively clean air and starshine that J. Tree affords.

I spent 30 days at the park, and with one exception, every day (and on several nights) the sky was filled with persistant trails that turned into cirrus 'clouds' that covered most of the sky.

At the 29 Palms entrance to Joshua Tree you will find a display that explains that cloud formation in the area is quite rare, owing to the high pressure system that prevails in the area. No clouds=no rain=desert.

So I asked a Park Ranger (eventually I spoke with several) why it was that I was observing 'clouds' on a daily basis. He became a bit nervous and informed me that these clouds were being created by aircraft, and that he checked the satellite weather maps daily and that they didn't show up.

He had never heard of 'chemtrails' and was, of course, greatly concerned with regards to the ecosystem he was charged with protecting. He seemed delighted that someone had seen fit to approach him on the subject.

posted 03-06-2002 01:32 PM            

quote:

---

I said I would be brief, so I will simply state that the internet can hardly be described as the 'primary causitive factor' of these trails that did, in fact, begin to innundate our skies circa 1999.

---

Completely right there Chem11.

posted 03-06-2002 02:42 PM            

Since there are so many 'contrail believers' here at the same time, how do you explain the photo on the homepage of this website? I've seen very similar (multiple) trails many times in Illinois, Iowa and Texas. I'm sure many of us have seen this in other states and countries. Also trails that spread out and descend unlike any contrails I've ever seen.

I know that what I've seen were not airshows, and they don't have the characteristics of military dogfight manuevers, (it's rare to see trails following each other in arcs/turns... I've seen the Navy's Blue Angels, AF Thunderbirds at airshows in IL, TX and CA and also military training flights at Edwards AFB and elsewhere), and they're certainly not contrails from routine airliner traffic.

posted 03-06-2002 03:12 PM            

Netname: SSC
Netblock: 148.114.0.0 - 148.114.255.255

Coordinator:
Cluff, James (JC398-ARIN) james.cluff@SSC.NASA.GOV
(228) 688-2249

Domain System inverse mapping provided by:

NS.SSC.NASA.GOV 148.114.16.83
LUNA.SSC.NASA.GOV 148.114.7.3

Record last updated on 09-Nov-1998.
Database last updated on 5-Mar-2002 19:57:42 EDT.

posted 03-06-2002 03:37 PM            

polls lie just like people do...I would say that canex is right on in his observation that this (chemtrails) is a internet generated idea, with specific help from art bell and jeff rense, not by just looking up as the poll says...caller after caller on art bell say "I was listening to your show and then surfed the web and found a lot on chemtrails"...

also considering the demographic here what would you expect that poll to say ?

To me it is extremely clear who would I consider is the best qualified to answer questions about our atmosphere and contrails.

With all due respect a code slinger(darn good one), a super-nice woman with a medical background, and chemm11 who is what I dunno, a vagrant ? does not match up to Dr. Minnis' candor, expertise and experience posted here last night...

I kind of feel bad for some here because never have they been so politely and
completely debunked....

posted 03-06-2002 04:02 PM            

I think people started Chemtrail websites in the beginning because of what they were seeing. Something different!

Yes, over time, months and years, some then see the websites and only then notice the skies.

Which may happen to be Chemtrail skies or contrail skies.

Yes, some people freak out on contrails every day and call them Chemtrails. And that is a terrible detriment to this issue. And yes, that can be completely debunked, and has, but the central issue, the original issue of an ongoing operation (of indeterminate size) hasn't been debunked at all by Minnis, or anyone else. I won't, and don't deny anything that Minnis has said concerning his area of expertise: contrails. I probably agree with everything he has to say about contrails. But I'm only tangentially interested in contrails. I still think there are Chemtrails. The issue probably won't be resolved until the government/military comes clean on the program, or enough Chemtrailers begin organized Flight Explorer research with soundings and high-zoom photography and come up with more definate proof of the existence or non-existence of Chemtrails.

posted 03-06-2002 04:16 PM            

Only a masochist would continue to subject themselves to these ceaseless, unprovoked personal attacks... life's too short.

Thank you again for your reply, Canex, and for being upfront enough to at least acknowledge there is a problem.

posted 03-06-2002 04:18 PM            

Chem, as for Joshua Tree, it's under airways and approaches for LAX. At night the temperature drops at flying altitudes, desert or not. Check it out on ADDS.

As for the trails themselves, as canex stated, engines have become more efficient. My first unusual trail siting caught my attention because they appeared vertical also. But I had listened to a radio program where somebody called in almost daily saying "the government was spraying us from planes" for 3 months beforehand. And that's how I got started. The power of suggestion got me too.

posted 03-06-2002 04:43 PM            

I know that what I've seen were not airshows, and they don't have the characteristics of military dogfight manuevers, (it's rare to see trails following each other in arcs/turns... I've seen the Navy's Blue Angels, AF Thunderbirds at airshows in IL, TX and CA and also military training flights at Edwards AFB and elsewhere), and they're certainly not contrails from routine airliner traffic.

* Can anyone really honestly believe these are normal contrails?

* If so, how do you explain them?

* Have any of you not seen trails like the photo on the homepage?

posted 03-06-2002 04:55 PM            

which is disinformation perpetuated daily, and if there is an issue, you are 100% correct Thermit...and some type of *clean-up* is needed....

I still think there are Chemtrails. The issue probably won't be resolved until the government/military comes clean on the program, or enough Chemtrailers begin organized Flight Explorer research with soundings and high-zoom photography and come up with more definate proof of the existence or non-existence of Chemtrails.

That's a good question...no more than F/E costs per month 10.00, why do chemtrailers not suck it up and organize to prove the belief...pool resources and invest in cameras to take the important pictorial that would show a spray system on an aircraft...

as much as some folks have spent on the internet side (site submission,web space,time,flim) and such, seems the money is there to do these things, but has not been done for some weird reason...these are important question's for chemtrailers to ponder...

my Dad said long ago if you want something bad enough you'll figure out how to pay for it...

but then again it is much cheaper to bitch about it on a message board...

posted 03-06-2002 05:13 PM            

I'm not discounting what Thermit said about an ongoing *operation* , I dunno...but as of today there's been no evidence to seriously suggest such...

until parameters are defined much closer,and the wild rantings of the "we got hammered today" crowd is curtailed, serious thought by serious people will not be given to the issue...and opinions like mine and others will continue.

I have seen the photo and have a bevy of them like it at my site, under pictures...

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