posted 04-18-2002 11:27 PM            

www.airliners.net/open.file?id=173609

posted 04-18-2002 11:43 PM            

now, i challenge anyone here to OBJECTIVELY look at the photos that i have linked and compare them to alcons. please describe to me in detail why alcons are chem and mine are con. why cant my photos be chemtrails? conversely, why cant alcons by contrails?

there are actually a lot more of these types of photos for anyone who is interested. the site is called "airliners.net" just go into this site and change the category to "air to air photos"

i will only post others if they are really noteworthy. actually i think that you will find that alcons are quite unremarkable, which was my point all along

posted 04-21-2002 01:20 AM            

it is very hard to tell the type of aircraft because of the poor quality of the picture. but it appears to me to be an A340. (a very common airliner in your part of the country). my only question to you is when you saw this trail, why did you conclude that it was a chemtrail. what is the difference between the chemtrail in this photo and a contrail?

"This one was not the typical white jet"

why did you make this statement? what made this aircraft different than the others? it is very hard to make out the airplane in this photo. what details are you seeing that i am not.

"I watched them start over my house before 7:00 AM and they are still at it hard 9 hours later. The sky has clouded over by this activity. Don't believe if you don't want but all these jets definately changed the sky today here"

eyes, the airspace over your location is one of the busiest on the face of the earth. almost all of the air traffic between the U.S. and europe uses the airspace above you. you said that "The sky has clouded over by this activity". well we all know that contrails can turn into cirrus clouds that last the better part of the day. so it is not unusual in busy airspaces for contrails to "cloud over" the sky.

posted 04-21-2002 05:19 PM            

The difference between chem and con in the photo: That right there may be a contrail. The photo was taken after this jet left a monster strip a bit back. I cannot say what the trail is at this point. I watched the persistent part of the trail for a couple of hours before it spread out to a haze - joining a dozen or so more persistent trails just like it over my house and in the near area. I alaso this happening inmany other places up to an hour away by car.

Typical white jet: Most aircraft I associate with "contrail" activity over my area are all white (some have a orange or red mark on the tail ans some seem to have a low visibility paint scheme).

"the airspace over your location ": I have lived here some years now and have watched the air traffic change considerably. Some days,like today, I see no jets at all - not one so far today. There were dozens yesterday - I would guess I could have taken photos of 30+ on the safe side. This jets or no jets varies considerably. The days I see no traffic might be very busy the next week.

cloud cover: Well believe or not, the presence of these large numbers of aircraft always are followed by certain "cloud" conditions and certain ground haze/fog conditions. Without fail.

Also I watch these jets fly very close to each other. Way too close for me to think it is normal commercial aircraft. Do you fly right at another jet and cross it's path at extremely close distances?

Ok I'm done but don't get me wrong, I appreciate and do read and listen to your opinion IB. If you want to see more photos of any example I spoke of, send me youe email with the message feature here, or go to
www.deepspace4.com

and read the Auburn Maine section that I submit. Also read Izakovic's very interesting Croatian Chemtrail diary, and the Bossier LA one too for that matter - they are not too long but very enlightening.

posted 04-22-2002 10:42 PM            

thanks for the civil response. i really do appreciate it. i usually dont get a warm response when i try to give a benign explanation for some of the things that are reported here.

let me fallow up on a couple of points. first of all, did you look at my links that i posted earlier in this thread? even though i wanted people to compare these trails to alcons i'll ask you the same; do they differ from yours and how.

"I watched the persistent part of the trail for a couple of hours before it spread out to a haze - joining a dozen or so more persistent trails just like it over my house and in the near area."

first of all we have to establish if you believe that contrails can persist for hours. if you do not then we have a problem, but lets assume that you will trust myself, meteorologists and even thermit and accept the fact that contrails often do persist for several hours eventually even forming a cirrus layer. you seem to try to make a point that it was more than one that left persistent trails. this is even more proof that they were just normal contrails. all the airliners flying through that particular airmass would leave persistent contrails.

"Typical white jet: Most aircraft I associate with "contrail" activity over my area are all white (some have a orange or red mark on the tail ans some seem to have a low visibility paint scheme)."

eyes, go to airliners.net and check out the multitude of paint schemes. they are infinite. the reason that the majority of the aircraft are mostly white is because this is currently a very popular (and boring) scheme with the marketing weenies in charge of these things. but, there are also a lot of wild paint schemes also. but to be honest, it is impossible to tell how the aircraft in your photo is painted because of the distance from the aircraft.

"Some days,like today, I see no jets at all - not one so far today"

it is extremely difficult to see aircraft at cruising altitudes unless they are producing contrails. is it possible that this is the reason that you arent seeing them on certain days? just because they arent producing trails doesnt mean that they are not up there. they are, if is just tough to see them.

"Also I watch these jets fly very close to each other. Way too close for me to think it is normal commercial aircraft. Do you fly right at another jet and cross it's path at extremely close distances?"

in a word, yes. all the time. while we are usually separated by 20 miles or so horizontally, we are only separated by 1000 ft vertically. as a matter of fact, it looks exactly like the other aircraft is flying right at you. another point, if you see two aircraft flying the same direction and seemingly for close to another, how do you know that they are not at different altitudes?

hope this helps and let me know if you have any other questions.

posted 04-23-2002 12:34 AM            

With all due respect for your efforts here, I would like to ask you this one question:

You make a point of emphasizing that "contrails" can, indeed, persist for hours, as if this fact is somehow supposed to make everyone feel better about the condition of our skies.

I'm asking you, point-blank, why you seem to find it so strange that people continue to be concerned that our skies are now CLOGGED with these damned trails for what is becoming, in many regions, a majority of the time. And why do you not seem to feel that this is a PROBLEM?

Another thing that is beginning to really irritate me is that this mess is increasingly being referred to as "high clouds" in the media and by broadcast meteorologists. For the most part, these are NOT "clouds" in the traditional sense of the word. They are the result of aerosol deposits, if you will, being made continuously in our upper atmosphere. I think it's time for the media to be honest and start calling this crap what it IS.

Because, in my opinion, it IS crap - and it IS affecting regional weather and climate patterns. And people ARE getting sick from these changes.

Please don't ask me to *prove it*. I can only speak for myself but I'm telling you that I've been watching this situation for three years now and that conditions on the surface here in my area have changed SIGNIFICANTLY since summer 1999.

I would really appreciate it if you could address these comments specifically.

posted 04-23-2002 10:35 AM            

First when I say I saw many jets leaving persistant contrails (I am aware that normal contrails can do this) I made a point to say I saw this "busrt" and "start and stop" in many different locations up to an hour or so away by car. It was not localized to one area.

Second, I see many jets fly over with no contrail at all. I see this often so I think I do catch many without the visual aid of contrail:
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/cgi-bin/db-search.cgi?template=img-detail&dbname=img&key2=1357&action=searchdbdisplay

I know I will not change your mind but what I am witnessing is dramatic and consistent. I do not think for one minute that the scores of jets flying through every few days or so that completely change the weather/sky is anything normal. It is quite something to see and I guess you haven't seen it.

posted 04-23-2002 11:18 AM            

i would be glad to address your questions specifically if you would also agree to answer my questions specifically. i'll go first:

"I'm asking you, point-blank, why you seem to find it so strange that people continue to be concerned that our skies are now CLOGGED with these damned trails for what is becoming, in many regions, a majority of the time. And why do you not seem to feel that this is a PROBLEM?"

ah, your "green" side is starting to show.
please search my comments on this forum and find one quote where i stated this. i have never even discussed the problems if increasing contrail formation and its possible effects on our weather. for the record, i do not believe that contrails are currently a problem but they very well may be in the future. it is something that has been studied and will be studied further. as to your weather, i think that if you really think about it you will find that your weather changes from year to year and is never exactly the same. there are 5,10,20,100,1000 year cycles. do you have any data to support a major climatic change in your area and that it is the direct result of contrails. the scientist dont yet.
but be careful, deb, if you discuss contrails too much you might be labeled a debunker.

"Because, in my opinion, it IS crap - and it IS affecting regional weather and climate patterns."

once again, and i hate to be a stickler, but where is the data to support this? if it is so dramatic then why has it alluded the scientific community? contrails are not destroying our weather but we do need to watch and make sure that there is not a problem brewing.

"And people ARE getting sick from these changes."

i guess we are now back on chemtrails, because contrails do not make anyone sick. my question is how do you know this to be fact? where are the stats showing the emergency rooms and doctors offices overflowing with mysterious ailments. please refer me to a medical conference that was called specifically do deal with this odd occurrences. the truth of the matter is it isnt happening. do you believe that everyone that suddenly comes down with a "respertory illness" is a victim of chemtrails. i assume your answer is no. then please tell me how you know the difference between your good old fashioned respertory problem and the chemtrail induced kind.

"Please don't ask me to *prove it*. I can only speak for myself but I'm telling you that I've been watching this situation for three years now and that conditions on the surface here in my area have changed SIGNIFICANTLY since summer 1999."

ok, i will not bother you for that pesky evidence stuff. but let me ask you a simple question, please tell me how it has changed so dramatically. do you have any data to back up your assertion? you know, our memories are not always completely accurate, i know mine is not.

ok, i did my part, now its your turn to do the same and answer my specific questions.

(1) please look at the links that i provided on this thread and compare them to alcon's cockpit photos. please tell me why his show chemtrails and mine do not.

(2)have you ever researched the air traffic over your head? if not i can provide a list if the airways and routes that are above you. as i stated before, it is an extremely busy airspace and i am not referring to the local boston traffic. i am talking about enroute traffic. you said earlier that on some days there are many jets and some days there are none. forget about the chemtrail jets for one second. what happens to the regular airliners? do they just not fly over your on certain days? i think that you will find that they are always up there whether you can see them or not. try Flight Explorer, it will answer a lot of your questions.

(3) you mentioned that the aircraft in your photo was odd and did not resemble the airliners that you are use to seeing. you think it is possible that you are just not familiar with the hundreds of different airline liveries that fly over your area. we are not talking about a handfull here. but my question to you here goes to one's perception. look at your photo again and describe to me its paint scheme. you stated that it was different than the others. i am stating that i not only cant tell the paint scheme, but i am having a hard time even telling what type of aircraft it is. whether you like to admit it or not, i am a pilot and i would wager that my aircraft i.d. skills are better than yours. i am not bragging but this just stands to reason. now, tell me what you are seeing in that photo that i am not. what details do you make out that i cant.

posted 04-23-2002 11:39 AM            

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post.

I also took the time to read every word of your reply.

Unfortunately, this is where you blew it - for me, anyway. You address me, as follows, in your third "specific" question:

.....(3) you mentioned that the aircraft in your photo was odd and did not resemble the airliners that you are use to seeing. you think it is possible that you are just not familiar with the hundreds of different airline liveries that fly over your area. we are not talking about a handfull here.....

Mr. Bystander, I have not mentioned, at any time, or in any thread on this forum, that I have found any aircraft to be "odd", let alone made this comment in direct reference to any of my personal photos I have shown here.

Once again, you have me mixed up with someone else.

Sir, you have indeed expended time and energy here to reply to my questions - but you are not only plugging, in way of response, the same tired Litany instead of truly ADDRESSING the issues I raise - you are talking to me as if I am some template you've created in your own mind.

I'm sorry - and disappointed - that our dialog is proving to be so unsatisfactory.

posted 04-23-2002 01:25 PM            

Mira....CT en Cozumel.

Adios por ahora y Buena Suerte,

posted 04-24-2002 01:36 AM            

"This one was not the typical white jet"

sorry that i put words in your mouth, but what did you mean by this statement? i used the word "odd". is that word not appropriate? not "typical" would be "odd", dont you think. by the way, to set the record straight, i responded to all your questions and you responded to none of mine. you are not holding up your end of the bargain eyes!

for captain alcon,

why dont you be a man and respond to just one of my questions that i had for you. what are you afraid of? i just checked out your cozumel trail. nice contrail. would someone please explain to me why it is not a contrail. anyone? thermit? chem11? come one now, why is the trail in captain alcon's last photo not a contrail? has anyone ever seen a contrail that looked liked alcon's?

posted 04-24-2003 10:05 AM            

Just been enjoying the year as everyone else has. Yes, I have been taking more photos from the cockpit. I'll be posting them soon.
How goes all with you?

~ALCON