posted 05-07-2002 03:13 AM            

http://www.downwinders.org/ffall00.htm

“FORGOTTEN FALLOUT”: Introduction

By J. Truman
August 11, 1997

The recent release of summary of the National Cancer Institute’s (NCI) 14-year long report of nationwide fallout from the 1950's Nevada atomic bomb tests has set off a fire storm of public concern, outrage, and anger. To many it marks the first time they have had to deal with the implications of nuclear testing in their personal lives. It also marks the worst public relations disaster for U.S. public health agencies since fallout was first “discovered” following the 1954 Bravo test at the Nevada Test Site. Suddenly everyone in America, from coast to coast, has to deal with the fact that they were personally exposed to radioactive fallout, with admitted risks to their personal health. This time, it wasn’t just a small group of Americans close to the test site, or close to some nuclear weapons facility. It was everybody! And this time the media has not followed the the government’s party line that “fallout is harmless, and there is no danger.”

The forced release of the National Cancer Institute’s report (after the media obtained “leaked” sections of it) is tremendously important to all Americans. It is vital that the American public, and their elected representatives, have the additional information needed to put the report in proper context. The public must understand the historical perspective of the testing period itself, and, most importantly, to know the lengths to which government agencies conducting the tests went to cover up the extent of fallout, and its dangers to the health of the American public.

To assist in providing the American public with the additional information needed to fully evaluate the NCI report, Downwinders will be publishing an ongoing series of articles titled “FORGOTTEN FALLOUT.” The series will not only cover examples of specific areas of the United States, Canada, and Mexico which were hit with high fallout levels, but will also discuss the response of the government and its agencies at the time.

We will also provide profiles on the scientists and medical personnel who bravely raised the spectre of alarm at the time, and whose lives and careers were destroyed as the Atomic Energy Commission and others who tried to maintain the ruse that “fallout is harmless.” The coverup and disinformation campaign continues today with the long delayed NCI report.

Along with the series Downwinders will also be providing links to other sites where relevant historical information on the testing period and the fallout controversy can be found. The purpose of this series will not be to argue or debate the potential health effects of fallout, or to estimate specific risks, but to help establish a clear historical record of nuclear weapons testing, and the government's efforts to conceal its public health hazards. We must know how we got to this point, and how it happened that our entire nation was exposed to radioactive fallout without our consent or knowledge. We must know how the government officials involved hid the relevant facts from us. Most importantly, for the sake of ourselves and our children, we must insure that this national disaster, inflicted upon us all by our own government, can never happen again!

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posted 05-07-2002 04:39 AM            

Well it ain’t coming into this thread, so you can take it back where you found it, for cryin’ out loud... Now you gotta wash up with disinfectant, too...

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posted 05-07-2002 03:03 PM            

Go back and re-read the lead-in post, replace all references to radioactive fallout and nuclear weapons testing with contrails and chemtrails, and you will find a one-to-one correspondence. Most importantly, investigate FOXES, WEAK LINKS, AND LOLLIPOPS and you will find answers to the opening question, here, and (hopefully) begin to comprehend the anatomy of a cover-up at the highest levels of United States government.

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“In the counsels of Government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the Military Industrial Complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together.” — President Eisenhower, 1961...

posted 05-07-2002 03:39 PM            

Go back and re-read the lead-in post, replace all references to radioactive fallout and nuclear weapons testing with contrails and chemtrails, and you will find a one-to-one correspondence.

so you wish me to replace factual words with other words to come to some sort of a assumption ?

I don't play charades quak...so I'll leave you to discuss this on your own...

posted 05-07-2002 06:41 PM            

Don’t bother responding to this post, Seeker. You have already made your point very clear. I trust that mine is equally so...

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posted 05-07-2002 11:41 PM            

frack tured buy the very thought~~~

a little boy chield walked
and absorbed the breize
"as it was" while monitors
dressed for the occassion
swabbed the downwind error for effects

calcium was ex~changed~ for strontium
and all and all
"it was a good~ TesT" the PTB exclaimed

yet we humans
do naught understand the caca~phonie
they ? speek?

econazi~ the swill of the nude world transparent stakeholders

as the hide behind infected PDF files
agenda 21 be damned

[Edited 1 times, lastly by mark sky on 05-07-2002]

posted 05-08-2002 07:43 PM            

Anyway, it looks like most of the heaviest exposure was downwind of Hanford, In central Washington.

Now there is no one arguing that the government (and it's contractors) did not expose all of us to various radioactive isotopes. Keep in mind however, that this was in the chilliest depths of the cold war.

Context is everything. Of course it is inexcusable, but it is understandable in the context of the times.

BTW, one of my uncles died of cancer in the 70's. He was in the army in the late 40's. I strongly suspect that atomic testing had a role in his death. Yes, he smoked also, and I am sure that that was also a factor, but I can also imagine that the synergystic effect of smoking and exposure to radioactive fallout was pretty close too deadly.

Also, did you know that the John Wayne movie "The Searchers" was shot in Utah at the time of some of the tests? How do you think they got those stunning sunset scenes.

posted 05-08-2002 09:17 PM            

Shooting locations:
http://www.movie-locations.com/movies/s/searchers.html

the last above ground test in 1955 was in may.

Actually there were a whole series of tests that winter and spring http://www.nuclearfiles.org/maps/tp/index.html

posted 05-09-2002 12:40 AM            

quote:

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Now there is no one arguing that the government (and it's contractors) did not expose all of us to various radioactive isotopes. Keep in mind however, that this was in the chilliest depths of the cold war.

Context is everything. Of course it is inexcusable, but it is understandable in the context of the times.

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Yeah, and look how far we’ve come. That last statement of yours, Bonehead, is about as frightening as anything I’ve heard in recent history. In fact, it is every bit as scary as the text from Lucas Helder. It’s the old “end justifying the means” rationalization plan again.

So, in other words, under a similar set of circumstances, it would be completely “understandable” for the Military Industrial Complex to create a whole new generation of “downwinders” amongst the civilian population. If context is indeed “everything”, then how chilly must the spectre of war reemerge before it is once again “permissible” for the Federal Government to expose its own citizens to the malevolent effects of bigger and better secret projects, which are, of course, always cloaked in the guise of “national security”?

I guess none of us should worry, however. On the watch of guys like LTC8K6, Maverick, F16Jock, et al., they would know if anything “funny” was going on. After all, they’re a whole lot more savvy than were their predecessors, 40 to 50 years ago.

General Eisenhower wasn’t fooled, by the time he retired as President of the United States. Then again, I guess you could argue that he was just an old fart when he wrote his farewell address...

“There is no danger.”

One of the Original Downwinders.
(From the AEC booklet, “Atomic Tests in Nevada”, 1957.)

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posted 05-09-2002 07:50 PM            

How old are you? If you are younger than 45, then most of the cold war hysteria was before your time.

However we can look at the historical record, and of course, the cultural records (film books, movies etc.). You can see that the threat of an attack from Russia was very real to the American people at the time. This is the context of which I spoke. The Army/ Mcarthy trials, duck and cover, the Berlin wall, the fall of China, basement bomb shelters, Civil defense drills, The Rosenburg trial, The Cuban missile crisis, the Korean and Vietnam wars were the major issues of the day. Movies and books like "the Manchurian Candidate," "Invasion of the Body Snatchers," and even "the Searchers," mentioned above were rife with political and paranoid undertones. This is what I mean by context

Many of the things that were done in this era were done under those conditions. For instance, the scientists, workers and local residents who were involved in the "Green Run" experiment at Hanford were convinced that the work that they did was vital to the national defense.

Was this arrogant? Of course it was. Was ignorance involved? Yes in the sense that those involved were too narrowly focused on the immediate mission and failed to consider their responsibilities to society as a whole. Do I understand why it happened? Yes, the assumptions, logic and attitudes that were prevalent during much of this time (ie. the context) are all too clear. Do I condone it? Of course not.

Do I think that this still goes on? Maybe, to a small degree, certainly, but to the extent that is assumed by some people here? No. Ours is a far different culture today then that of the post WWII era. As a whole we are much less accepting and trusting that science has all the answers. And scientists are much more aware of the cultural whole in which they operate. In addition, scientists are core cognizant of the possibilities of long term, or unintended effects. In fact, a whole new branch of mathematics has sprung up to study just that. Called chaos theory, one of its main tenets is the concept of sensitive dependence on initial conditions. This concept states that a small change in the initial condition of a system will quickly produce completely different and unpredictable results.

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I guess none of us should worry, however. On the watch of guys like LTC8K6, Maverick, F16Jock, et al., they would know if anything "funny" was going on. After all, they’re a whole lot more savvy than were their predecessors, 40 to 50 years ago.
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This brings up an interesting point. Lets assume for arguments sake that there are 300 airplanes in the US involved in the "spraying" operation. Lets also assume an average aircrew of four with a ground crew of 6 per plane, plus and extra 20 or so per plane involved with logistical and administrative support (I am pulling these numbers out of the air here, I have no idea of how many people it actually takes to support the operation of a single, large, airplane.) Lets just say for arguments sake that between 5,000 to 10,000 military and civilian personnel are either directly or indirectly involved with the program. Let’s also assume that due to the nature of their activities, these personnel either have direct knowledge or they can make a reasonably accurate guess to the actual nature of the "spraying" program. Lets also ignore any increase in the number of people due to job changes, personnel rotations, changes in duty status, etc.

Do you mean to tell me that of those 5,000 to 10,000 people, not one of them has a family, children, parents, brothers, sisters or is so morally bankrupt that they have no concern for the welfare of others that they would not raise questions or "blow the whistle" so to speak?

I don’t think so.

Bonehead’s law: The ability of a conspiracy to remain a secret is proportional to the inverse square the number of people in on it.

And yes, I like to think that we as a whole are a lot savvier than we were 40 or 50 years ago. Things aren’t perfect, but we have come an awfully long way. Do you want an example? Just ask any African American over the age of 60 what it was like in America in the 50’s and 60’s. Ask them if they think things are the same as they were back then, or how about the mere fact that we can have this discussion here on the Internet? This is not just the technical innovation here that I am talking about, but rather the proliferation of dissent and discussion that the technical advance has made possible. The military today is also a lot smaller per capita than it was back then. There are fewer bases. It is a lot harder to hide things now.

I would like a little more concrete proof than a simple meteorological phenomenon (persistent contrails) before I subscribe to the chemtrails theory.

posted 05-09-2002 08:14 PM            

quote:

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Air America, an airline secretly owned by the CIA, was a vital component in the agency's operations in Laos. By the summer of 1970, the airline had some two dozen twin-engine transports, another two dozen short-take off-and-landing (STOL) aircraft, and 30 helicopters dedicated to operations in Laos. There were more than 300 pilots, copilots, flight mechanics, and airfreight specialists flying out of Laos and Thailand. During 1970, Air America airdropped or landed 46 million pounds of food stuffs --mainly rice--in Laos. Helicopter flight time reached more than 4000 hours a month in the same year.

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Depending on which organizations are involved with such an operation, it could be carried out quite secretly. NSA, CIA, and even the United Nations could be involved. Who knows for sure? How many UN pilots are stationed here to patrol our skies and how many of their support crews are here as well?

posted 05-09-2002 08:56 PM            

quote:

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The year 1965 marked the beginning of major military activity in what became known as the secret war in Laos. Although the full extend of the conflict was not revealed to the American people until 1969-70, the war was not all that secret. News of the fighting frequently found its way into the pages of The Bangkok Post, The New York Times, and other newspapers. Congress certainly was kept well informed.

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posted 05-10-2002 04:27 AM            

quote:

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Do you mean to tell me that of those 5,000 to 10,000 people, not one of them has a family, children, parents, brothers, sisters or is so morally bankrupt that they have no concern for the welfare of others that they would not raise questions or "blow the whistle" so to speak?

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We don’t need constraints, such as the numbers you pulled out of the air. Certainly, there was an ample supply of qualified scientists who were well aware of the consequences of exposure to high levels of radiation, back in the good old days. They blew their whistles until they were blue in the face or they were silenced, which ever came first.

If you honestly believe that agents of our military and national security organizations have come such “an awfully long way” to where they now include “please” whenever they expect adherence to a directive, then you are free to think so.

“There is no danger” means the same now as it meant 40 to 50 years ago.

quote:

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As a whole we are much less accepting and trusting that science has all the answers.

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At least I’ve lived long enough to hear that. Actually, it is in direct proportion to whomever happens to be funding the research.

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“When walking amongst predators, never lose awareness of your surroundings. By itself, science tells us what should be. Only tempered with... aw, to hell with it......”

posted 05-10-2002 11:09 AM            

quote:

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Do you mean to tell me that of those 5,000 to 10,000 people, not one of them has a family, children, parents, brothers, sisters or is so morally bankrupt that they have no concern for the welfare of others that they would not raise questions or "blow the whistle" so to speak?

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posted 05-10-2002 11:47 AM            

You could use the Vietnam war as an analogy. If you look at the Ellsberg brothers, as well as those few brave congresspeople who saw what they considered to be a morally bankrupt enterprise, they certainly blew the whistle on aspects of the war, and that whistle-blowing played no small part in the public's eventual disenchantment with the war. Yet they knew they could lose their careers and maybe even their freedom!

Besides, word about a classified project can get out in more prosaic ways. Someone is bound to talk to his or her spouse about it in bed one night, and that spouse may tell a close friend (after swearing him to secrecy, of course), etc., etc. Sooner or later a reporter itching for the Pulitzer will get hold of it and -- voila!

It seems to me that any such program would have to have a very small number of people in the know; the logistics of security almost demands it.
Regards,

posted 05-10-2002 04:44 PM            

Yeah, right. From our old friend, [2025] Weather as a Force Multiplier: Owning the Weather in 2025 —

quote:

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A high risk/high reward endeavor, weather modification offers a dilemma not unlike the splitting of the atom. While some segments of society will always be reluctant to examine controversial issues such as weather modification, the tremendous military capabilities that could result from this field are ignored at our own peril...

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Remember, that was written six short years ago.

quote:

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Just ask any African American over the age of 60 what it was like in America in the 50’s and 60’s. Ask them if they think things are the same as they were back then...

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If you honestly think that this has anything to do with the feasibility of our government pulling off a successful cover-up, then I have one more piece of relevancy for you. In developed countries today, most people are eating fast food or taking their meals “out of the freezer” instead of sitting down to nice home-cooked dinners with family. As a result, the deterioration of individual nutrition is approaching crisis levels. Yeah, things just keep getting better and better.

And now Duncan says:

quote:

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It seems to me that any such program would have to have a very small number of people in the know; the logistics of security almost demands it.

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That really depends upon what you are referring to by “in the know”. One way or another, an enormous workforce managed secrecy just fine for up to 50 years on the Downwinder can o’ worms. It would seem that the whole set of lessons learned from that period of history has been lost on a lot of people. The prototype of cover-ups was successfully pulled off right under everyone’s noses. And that one was just for practice. What more do you want...???

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