posted 05-29-2002 12:40 PM            

The biggest problem with the chemtrail argument is that much of it is based on pseudoscience, or just plain bad science. (Some of the stuff on the carnicom site is a classic example of this.) I don’t know what your background is in science (any classes in high school or college?), so I will just say this.. try to keep an open mind. Be skeptical about everything until you can independently verify it, and above all, CONSIDER THE SOURCE.

Some of the classic fallacies that are often presented in the Chemtrails/ Chemtrails debate are these:

1) Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. (this one is for the chemies)

2) Any proposition must be falsifiable in order to be proved (This one is for the debunkers, it is the flip side of #1, above) For example you could argue that the universe is nothing more than a collection of basic building blocks in a giant electron (remember that scene in Animal House? ) But, since you can never prove that this theory is wrong (ie step outside the universe) then it is not falsifiable and therefore invalid (although it is a neat idea).

3) Correlation does not mean causation. For example we can correlate children’s shoe sizes with their math scores, but there is no cause and effect there.

Finally, if your wife is pregnant, there are other, much more immediate environmental issues you should be concerned with. Living in SC, mold is one. One other very important issue is lead based paint not to mention common household cleaners, paints, solvents, etc.

posted 05-29-2002 01:37 PM            

Be skeptical about everything until you can independently verify it, and above all, CONSIDER THE SOURCE.

Rule #4. Our government and various institutions, religious organizations, think tanks, commentators, news organizations, etc. can and will lie, leave out critical details, or distort the truth in any subject. The hidden Priority #1 for the people behind our government is protecting and increasing the wealth and power of the elite. Manipulating the truth including disinformation is often necessary to achieve Priority #1.For more information, read "The Price" by Nicolo Machiavelli, written in 1505.

Information is information regardless of the source. Do not discount a source 100% because they are not 'official' or have said things you do not agree with.

Rule #5. If enough people say the same thing, it might be worthwhile to take note, regardless of what "official" organizations say. For more information as to why, see #4 above.

3) Correlation does not mean causation. For example we can correlate children’s shoe sizes with their math scores, but there is no cause and effect there.

...but, correlation can be an indicator of causation in the scope of the bigger picture of information. Keep the information in mind, and look for more clues like a good detective until you can conclusively prove or disprove the given subject. In my opinion, there is not enough proof about chemtrails either way. But, there are sufficient indications to warrant further research.

Ciao.

posted 05-29-2002 02:05 PM            

quote:

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read "The Price" by Nicolo Machiavelli

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I thought it was "The Prince" Funny what one letter will do to a word...

quote:

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Information is information regardless of the source. Do not discount a source 100% because they are not 'official' or have said things you do not agree with.

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ALWAYS question ANY source. If you take something as Gospel without corroborating it, you are just joining the other sheeple, lapping it up, whether you're on either side of the coin.

quote:

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Rule #5. If enough people say the same thing, it might be worthwhile to take note, regardless of what "official" organizations say. For more information as to why, see #4 above.

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Again, a sheeple attitude. THINK FOR YOURSELF, PEOPLE!!!!!

And my #1 rule of all - Just because it's on the Internet, doesn't mean it's true! Anyone can get a domain, put together a pretty good looking website, and fill it with utter crap, touting it as fact, with gobs of alleged research. You going to believe that at face value? I hope not. Check into it yourself first. Go to the library and do some real research - a google search doesn't count....

I don't care which side of the debate you're on, the biggest thing is to NOT rely on other's "research" - do your own (at a library, educational institution, etc.), and prove it to yourself before you tout it as 100% fact. Otherwise you're no better than a lemming heading towards the cliff....

posted 05-29-2002 04:20 PM            

---------------------------

Noblegas said:
"It seems like some of the posters in reply to you are setting themselves up to be "experts" on questioning experts."

posted 05-29-2002 04:51 PM            

"Noblegas. It sounds like you have some very recent experience in the "setting up" area...nice try"

posted 05-29-2002 07:32 PM            

There are many ways to raise public awareness and I have tried a few more than once for different causes that I have been involved in through the years but it is not an easy and quick process. It takes time. Up until November, I could only remember 2 times that we were sprayed here and I was perfectly doing archaeological research and wildlife habitat rehabilitation projects and writing books. - But that all changed in November. Now I as well as quite a few others here are trying to figure out exactly what the hell is going on and have spent a great deal of time and effort to document as much as possible and to let people know about it. - There are just some people that refuse to believe that there is anything unusual going on in the sky above us while others are just too busy to take notice of it. Some people are just too frightened to do anything about it while others are still trying to cope with what happened last September. - But there are more and more people that are waking up and noticing that something is wrong. - I think there were only a little over 700 members when I came here and now we've got over 900. - A few of them are debunkers, but a lot of them are just like us and are looking for answers just like we are and I predict that more will come.

Sorry about the rant, but even us Moderators have our days. We've been sprayed for over a week straight here and it's starting to bug me.

Well anyway, I did a little google search and discovered that "The Prince" can be read online or downloaded.

The Prince - First published 1515

posted 05-29-2002 08:19 PM            

From Nirvana:
Rule #4. Our government and various institutions, religious organizations, think tanks, commentators, news organizations, etc. can and will lie, leave out critical details, or distort the truth in any subject. The hidden Priority #1 for the people behind our government is protecting and increasing the wealth and power of the elite. Manipulating the truth including disinformation is often necessary to achieve Priority #1.For more information, read "The Price" by Nicolo Machiavelli, written in 1505.

Information is information regardless of the source. Do not discount a source 100% because they are not 'official' or have said things you do not agree with.

OK, which is it? a) don't believe any thing the government, or scientists tell us because they all lie, or b) Information is information regardless of the source.

This seems like contradictory advice to me.

As it is, the first paragraph is a twist of the classic fallacy known as an appeal to authority (argumentum ad verecundiam). Only in this case rather than basing an argument on dubious authority, Nirvana bases his argument on a denial that an obvious authority exists. Now granted, not everyone who works for the government or is a scientist is an expert on everything, It is still a little far fetched to claim that "they are all involved in the conspiracy."

Nirvana also stated : "Rule #5. If enough people say the same thing, it might be worthwhile to take note, regardless of what "official" organizations say. For more information as to why, see #4 above."

Just because everyone says its true than it must be true right? To use on of my favorite analogies, everyone believed in witches once, that was a major justification for burning people at the stake. Or just like everyone once "knew" that tomatoes were poisonous. or that everyone once knew that the sun revolved around the earth. This is known as the Appeal to Popularity fallacy or (argumentum ad populum).

bshrdr wrote And my #1 rule of all - Just because it's on the Internet, doesn't mean it's true! Anyone can get a domain, put together a pretty good looking website, and fill it with utter crap, touting it as fact, with gobs of alleged research. You going to believe that at face value? I hope not. Check into it yourself first. Go to the library and do some real research - a google search doesn't count....

Sounds like you're describing carnicom's site.

Dan Rockwell wrote: I think there were only a little over 700 members when I came here and now we've got over 900. - A few of them are debunkers, but a lot of them are just like us and are looking for answers just like we are and I predict that more will come.

I'd say more than just a few are debunkers. BTW, how many have been banned from here? not as many as from Carnicom's site I am sure, but more than just a few. How many registered, made a few posts and left, never to return?

Tension?

well it all depends on your approach. If you are convinced that this is a life or death situation, and no on is listening to you then you will be a little frustrated. Or if you want the arguments to be based on basic, accepted principles of science, not pseudoscience, (like me ), then you are liable to get a little frustrated when people persist in believing that the sun is "not where it should be in the sky" when this is simply impossible.

posted 05-29-2002 10:03 PM            

I fly over Charleston all the time...I'm based out of Montgomery AL. I'm a Learjet pilot, and we often cruise as high as 41,000 feet. Of all the times I've flown over the Charleston area, I've never seen anything that would indicate to me that there was any "spraying" going on.

Traffic has always been normal. There have never been any weird vectors nor have we ever been instructed to climb or descend to avoid a particular area, as many chemtrail believers have read on various sites.

And not only do I see persistant contrails on a daily basis, we fly through them too. And trust me...if they were truly toxic, I'd be dead by now because the "chemtrail" would wind up in our cabin air system (since our pressurization and cabin air comes from the compressor section of our engine...which is sucked straight from the atmosphere).

I hope you do find the real truth out there, but be careful. I've seen many web sites that spout all kinds of information. Some sound very technical and have all the right jargon, and would likely be very convincing to someone that doesn't know better about aviation and meteorology, but to a pilot, it's obvious that the writer doesn't know what they are talking about.

Ask yourself this question: If chemtrails are true, then why hasn't there been a single pilot or ATC controller come forward? Or even any believers from those two communities?

You'll often see people post with "I know a pilot who said....blah blah blah". And there's one guy who claims to be a pilot, but won't talk to the other pilots out there that ask him simple questions like "what aircraft do you fly", etc. But to date, I've never seen a bona fide pilot post on the believer's side. They've always argued for the debunkers. I've sent chemtrail links to every pilot I know, and most laughed, some ignored it, and a few others joined me in the debunking.

I've posted chemtrail links on pilot message boards, with the same results. Not a single pilot out there has said "hey, some of this is valid". Not a single one. None of them have seen the mysterious lingering contrails....because they are completely normal and have looked the same for the past 30-40 years since many of these pilots first started flying.

The one "pilot" that has posted photos of "chemtrails" but refused to discuss anything about airplanes with other pilots show scenes that I've been seeing since I first started flying...

So be very careful. And consider other sources for the rash. There are so many other things that can cause such a thing. My wife is pregnant too, and industrial pollution, auto pollution, paints, solvents, household chemicals, allergies, etc....all those things can cause ill health effects.

posted 05-30-2002 01:45 AM            

a) Regarding the government, I said "can and will lie,...", not "the government lies 100% of the time". I'm sure they would like to tell the truth 100% of the time, if it fit 'their' needs.

b) I'm saying information is a commodity aside from the delivery mechanism. Don't discount information from unofficial sources, or anybody for that matter. It's up to you to filter what's meaningful and what is not. Almost nobody is correct all the time, but almost all are correct some of the time.

As it is, the first paragraph is a twist of the classic fallacy known as an appeal to authority (argumentum ad verecundiam). Only in this case rather than basing an argument on dubious authority, Nirvana bases his argument on a denial that an obvious authority exists. Now granted not everyone who works for the government or is a scientist is an expert on everything, It is a little far fetched to claim that "they are all involved in the conspiracy."

True about not all being involved in a conspiracy, but as with an corporation, the policies come from the top down, and if you don't follow the rules, you will find yourself out of a job or without power very quickly. Also, the people in the layers below don’t know all the details about what is going on in the organization. It’s called “compartmentalization”. The classic analogy is that of a pyramid with power cascading down from an elite few at the top, though it’s probably more complicated than that. For more information, see www.bilderberg.org among other sources for who are some of the elite. They are meeting starting May 30.

Nirvana also stated : "Rule #5. If enough people say the same thing, it might be worthwhile to take note, regardless of what "official" organizations say. For more information as to why, see #4 above."

Just because everyone says its true than it must be true right? To use on of my favorite analogies, everyone believed in witches once, that was a major justification for burning people at the stake. Or just like everyone once "knew" that tomatoes were poisonous. or that everyone once knew that the sun revolved around the earth. This is known as the Appeal to Popularity fallacy or (argumentum ad populum).

posted 05-30-2002 06:46 AM            

The "actions" of our government, and the world governments are not trivial. They are definitive. A person needs to be able to base their conclusions on what is definitive.

The "words" of our govenrments are trivial.

"Irate rantings" are trivial.

We all know the truth. Some are unconscious to the truth, in full or partially. This is simply Denial, motivated by the foundation of what they believe "reality" to be. The social world. The political world. The religious world. ALL TRIVIAL. What you SEE and what you HEAR are two different things. Some people can't seem to distinguish.

posted 05-30-2002 10:44 AM            

I certainly hope so. Even those among us who are skeptics would be really interested in seeing what your lab found. We need stuff like this. The only time that such a 'report' was made, it was by a person who covered up the truth about the components of rainwater and ended up looking like a complete fraud.

We need your information. I hope you will post it.