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Topic: Contrail photos...or are they chemtrails? | Topic page views:
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PacerLJ35
Senior Member
Millbrook, AL, USA
456 posts, Apr 2002
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posted 05-31-2002 09:02 PM
   
Thermit...It appears, according to your CT reports on another thread, that trails were seen in three very different parts of the country in roughly the same 24 hour period. Maine, California, and Washington state. One mission a day, four times a week? Won't cut it to do that kind of spraying. You'd need at least double the airplanes, and likely double the people. 
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Bonehead9
Senior Member
suburb of Chicago, IL US
176 posts, May 2002
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posted 05-31-2002 10:30 PM
Boneheads Law: The maximum probability (p) of anything remaining a secret is inversely proportional to the number of people in on it (x) p=1/x In application this is how it goes. If one person knows a secret, then the probability is ranges from 0 to 1. In other words one person can keep a secret indefinitely. If two people know about it, then the maximum probability of that thing remaining a secret is 1/2 or 50 percent. If 100 people know about it, then the maximum probability is 1/100. If 1000 people know it, then it is no longer a secret!
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Bonehead9 on 05-31-2002]
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hitech_46253
Senior Member
Indianapolis, IN U.S.
499 posts, May 2001
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posted 06-01-2002 10:39 AM
It's NOT a secret Bonehead! Just depends on who CHOOSES to accept what is revealed TRUTH or not. Take CIA Mind control called MK-Ultra. A SICK program that uses, tortures kills kids and has been used to STAGE shootings in schools. It's not a secret. Congressional hearings were held on it. Rep. Kucinich had CHEMTRAILS in a bill he re-ordered before congress. FAA controllers have admitted moving air traffic for these MILITARY flights. Spotlight paper got FACTS out that there were 4 SEPARATE military type spray programs. So who's keeping what a secret here? You simply have some types that like to label nefarious government activities as CONSPIRACY THEORY when they are CONSPIRACY FACTS.
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Unhappy Trails
Senior Member
Seattle, WA
256 posts, May 2002
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posted 06-01-2002 12:40 PM
Hey Pacer, your photos were weak at best. Next time, please take some of the trails being layed out, then pluming with particulate matter falling, then 2 or 3 hours later take a shot of the immense white cloud that it formed turning a perfectly crystal clear blue day into a white haze. Please take photos of the layers of bands, one on top of each other that paint the sky white. Then explain it to us. Your photos don't support your argument.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Unhappy Trails on 06-01-2002]
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PacerLJ35
Senior Member
Millbrook, AL, USA
456 posts, Apr 2002
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posted 06-01-2002 01:20 PM
CIA mind control caused the school shootings? Show me your sources. Seriously, I'd be interested to hear more.FAA controllers have moved air traffic? Again, where are your sources? Or did you just read that off an internet web site? I've been flying for 6 years, and never heard controllers vectoring aircraft around military maneuvers. Neither has any of the other pilots I've been flying with, many of whom have over 20 years in the business. As for the various spray programs that this paper told you about, I'd like to read that as well. Post me a link, or at the very least, tell me where I can find this stuff. If it's the same garbage I've found on other chemtrail websites (undocumented, or simply a requote of another chemtrail believer) you need to provide more than that. "Next time, please take some of the trails being layed out" I've got em, and I'm going to post them to the photo site. I didn't originally put them there because the photos were hard to see. But just for you, I'll post them. "...then pluming with particulate matter falling..." I'd like to see a photo of this particulate matter, because I've never seen it and I fly through contrails and clouds at least twice a week, if not more. Further, why isn't this stuff making me sick? I fly THROUGH IT, so you'd think I'd get a really good dose of whatever is up there. "then 2 or 3 hours later take a shot of the immense white cloud that it formed turning a perfectly crystal clear blue day into a white haze" You've got pics of a few contrails that turned into pretty large cirrus clouds. Keep in mind that when you view my photos, you're looking at most of the southeastern US in those photos. The horizon line is about 300 miles away, so that's some pretty large real estate. What looks like a small cloud actually covers a large area. And many of the reports of "chem-scum" covering people's view of the sky can easily be backed up by looking at a sattelite view of the Earth, and lo and behold...a weather front is moving through their area. The same moisture in the air that was creating the contrails is what sustains and creates the layers of cirrus clouds. And I know that I've got at least one pic of a high level cirrus cloud that also had a few contrails forming in and around it too. Just go take a look again. The whole point of my photos is to show that I'm not really talking without a basis of fact. I'm a pilot. I work with alot of pilots. In any given day, I fly to 3, 4 or even 5 locations all around the US. I've never seen anything that looked strange. No one else has either. I've never seen a single "chemtrail" photo that didn't look like something I had seen before. So I'm trying to bring some sanity back here. Many of you proclaim that only you, the gifted ones of the truth, bother to look above your heads. Well dude, thousands of airline, commercial, private and military pilots see what you have "discovered" on a daily basis and have been seeing it for many years now.
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Goatherder
New Member
West Fork, Arkansas
1 posts, Jun 2002
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posted 06-02-2002 02:10 PM
I would appreciate it if PacerLJ35 might render his analysis of something which I observed. I did not put any stock in the ongoing discussions about chemtrails until Sunday, April 28, 2002. We are located on the north side of the Boston Mountains in Northwest Arkansas. I have observed jet contrails criss-crossing for a number of years. This is a natural consequence of heavy jet traffic and I saw nothing unusual in this.
I spent most of Sunday outside since I was opening our swimming pool. The early morning sky was clear and a beautiful cobalt blue. At 10:30 AM, several high altitude jets rolled in and, within minutes, laid out a large checkerboard pattern in the sky. This continued until about noon, when they left. The trails left by these jets persisted and slowly spread out. The trails were a grayish white and appeared to be cohesive. By noon, most of the sky was covered with a thin cloud cover. We had a breeze blowing from west to east, and as the checkerboard pattern blew to the east, the jets would expand the pattern. I tried looking at the jets through binoculars, but I could not tell what kind or manufacture of jets they were.
By about 12:30 PM, the wind had blown the cloud cover off to the next county to the east and we were back to the clear, cobalt blue sky. Then at 1:30 PM, the jets came back and started the process of laying down the trails in the checkerboard pattern again. I suppose they were done with their refueling and lunch break. This continued until 3:30 PM, when they quit and left for the day. Eventually, the cloud cover left by these jets also blew off to the east.
The odd things that I observed were:
1) The trails were persistent and did not dissipate. The trails seemed to be cohesive and did not spread very much. I could track individuals trails across the sky until they disappeared over the horizon.
2) The thin cloud cover that I observed towards the end of each session retained the checkerboard pattern, although it was somewhat diffuse at this point, with thinner cloud cover within the squares. We did not have a good view to the west, but since the wind was blowing from the west, I assume that these trails were laid down somewhere over eastern Oklahoma and blew towards us. Probably the trails that were laid down over our area took on a similar look by the time they blew to Little Rock.
3) I observed several commercial jet flights coming over, also at high altitude, while the trails were being laid. These jets had normal appearing contrails, which evaporated 30 to 45 seconds after being exhausted from the jet engines, resulting in very short contrails behind these jets. These contrails were pure white, as opposed to the persistent trails, which were also white, but with a gray cast to them.
4) I watched one jet laying a trail to my north during the morning session, when the trail suddenly stopped. The jet left no contrail (clear air only) for a period of several seconds and perhaps a mile of travel distance, and then the trail suddenly started again. It very much appeared as if the jet had emptied a tank and the pilot had to switch tanks before continuing to lay the trail.
5) Two jets during the afternoon session were flying together on parallel tracks laying out two lines of the pattern at the same time. The trails stopped being emitted from both jets at about the same time. The jets continued flying, leaving no contrail and no further trail (again, clear air only behind the jets). It appeared as if they had exhausted their tanks at the same time.
6) We normally do not have much jet traffic over our area. However, on that Sunday, there was a constant rumble from the jet engines during each of the morning and afternoon sessions. Before, during the lunch break, and after, jet traffic was at its normal level.I would like to know what I was observing if these jets were not spraying something. I would also like to know what the purpose is in multiple jets flying in a pattern that will lay out contrails in a checkerboard pattern. Surely there is a perfectly rational and ordinary explanation for this behavior.
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PHANTOM911
Senior Member
341 posts, Oct 2001
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posted 06-19-2002 01:39 PM
Pacer,
just read this entire thread for the first time and viewed your photos. I am curious as to why you didn't respond to Goatherder's questions above and this thread has sat dormant. I too have just a couple of questions if I may. What type camera, focal length, zoom factor, etc. were you using? My reason for asking is that in your second pic the learjet is only 8000' higher and nearly directly above according to you. This being the case, had you been on the ground you probably wouldn't have been able to even see this jet at 8 miles up. This is where I have a problem concerning aircraft I've filmed at altitudes I believe to be well under even 20,000 feet due to the constraints of my camera equipment. Hell even I know when I can see the entire aircraft leaving trails I'm not looking at something some 6 to 8 miles up. They're much lower. I don't know if you've viewed my site but the video I posted "How low can they go" still makes me wonder what altitudes I'm filming. Surely I'm not filming aircraft several miles up.
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GAS_MASK
Open-Minded
151 posts, Jul 2002
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posted 07-19-2002 11:35 AM
 These two different contrails were photographed on the same day, just a few hours apart. The top contrail lasted for 10 minutes (the photo was snapped about 2 minutes before it was completely gone). The bottom trail lingered for over 3 hours, and it never really disappeared, it kind of blended in with the surrounding haze. Both jets were over 30,000 feet (courtesy of Flight Explorer). Now tell me why the bottom trail turned into a huge, elongated cloud, while the other one did not. Don't start giving me any crap about shifting upper atmospheric conditions, because they do not change drastically enough in a few hours to have any affect the outcome of those two trails. If they were both normal, then both would have disappeared within 10 minutes. You debunkers tend to think that every trail we see is deemed a "chemtrail". You are incorrect. I know there are regular lingering contrails out there, and I do see normal ones from time to time. However, chemtrails occur alongside normal ones all the time. All you have to do is look up and see the difference. Most (but not all) of these planes do not have spray nozzles attached. The chemical being used in these operations is most likely in the fuel. Most of the pilots are unaware what they are doing, therefore, no need for hundreds of people to be part of the conspiracy.
[Edited 2 times, lastly by GAS_MASK on 07-19-2002]
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Dan Rockwell
Hoka hey! - heyokas!
Stamford, CT, USA
1750 posts, Dec 2001
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posted 07-19-2002 12:47 PM
Welcome Gas_Mask. Excellent pictures.My girlfriend has been saying some good things about you and I was wondering when you were going to drop in here. I'm not surprised by a persistence of over 3 hours. We've documented a persistence of over 8 hours twice already here. A Highly Persistent Trail Spotted Over The West Coast http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001206.html Another highly persistent trail on the west coast http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001248.html
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GAS_MASK
Open-Minded
151 posts, Jul 2002
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posted 07-19-2002 01:50 PM
Thanks for the warm greeting Dan. I've read this forum a lot, and I'm not sure why it took my so long to join the damn thing!  I like this site, it's pretty tight.Anyway, as for the above post, I never had any doubts that normal persistant contrails exist. I see them all the time on a regular basis. However, when one contrail persists, then another one at, or near the same altitude shall do so as well. This did not happen that day. Chemtrails, if they are in fact normal and benign, defy the laws of physics. They persist, while others in the same vicinity do not. Pretty interesting. I took a look at the satellite photos you provided, and don't see anything out of the ordinary except for couple things. One image shows a long contrail across the SW U.S. My question is this: With all the air traffic across that region, why did only one contrail show up and persist? What happened to the hundreds of other planes that passed across that same area? Another one shows what appears to be a cold front eminating from the nearby low pressure system, not a contrail.
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Dan Rockwell
Hoka hey! - heyokas!
Stamford, CT, USA
1750 posts, Dec 2001
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posted 07-19-2002 02:41 PM
I've been keeping a close watch on the satellite images and found it quite suspicious that these were the only two times that we've been able to see such persistence. It's hard to tell how the one I documented in June appeared because I could only track it back so far. The one that Krissa documented in May, however, seemed to start out as a normal chem-trail, similar to many that I've seen visually as well as on satellite, but grew into a monster. I almost overlooked that one, but Krissa luckily picked up on its persistence. Even canex wasn't sure what to think about that one.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Dan Rockwell on 07-19-2002]
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KrissaTMC2
Never Surrender!
Greenwich, CT, USA
472 posts, Feb 2002
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posted 07-19-2002 05:33 PM
Welcome Gas_Mask. I like those pictures. They sure would make a good bumper sticker. Dan, you were lucky that I noticed the persistence of that trail and had a fast enough computer to run the animations and was able to figure out how to find that first image. 
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canex
Senior Member
USA
164 posts, Oct 2000
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posted 07-19-2002 09:42 PM
TO Gas Mask about your two pictures. THe only difference between those two contrail sis about 2-3% in rleative humidity at flight altitude. If you don't think humidity can change drastically in a short period or distance, have look at the water vapor imagery where you will see well-defined lines of humid and dry conditions as well as gradually changes from dry to moist, moist to dry. Put them in motion and you will see that over a given spot, it can be dry one minute, moist the next.
OK, you don't want to look at water vapor imagery. Too confusing. Look at a cumulus cloud. Look at the clear air next to it. What is the difference betweeen that clear air and cumulus cloud? About 3-4% relative humidity. Can it be any simpler to understand?
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PacerLJ35
Senior Member
Millbrook, AL, USA
456 posts, Apr 2002
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posted 07-19-2002 11:04 PM
"I suppose they were done with their refueling and lunch break." -GoatherderPilots don't take a "lunch break" per se. Our schedule and day is driven by our itineraries, and the schedulers could care less about a "lunch break". We eat when we get the chance. As for the various jets appearing in "formation", I've yet to see any aircraft flying in formation with exception of those performing actual aerial refueling operations. Often, it may appear that aircraft are in some kind of formation when actually they are seperated by several thousand feet of altitude. From the ground (which is 5-7 MILES from your eyeball to an airplane cruising at normal altitudes), 2-4000 feet is hard to differentiate. "My reason for asking is that in your second pic the learjet is only 8000' higher and nearly directly above according to you. This being the case, had you been on the ground you probably wouldn't have been able to even see this jet at 8 miles up." -Phantom911 Well, Learjets are typically very small, and harder to pick out while up high unless they've got a contrail forming behind them. They are only roughly 35 feet in length, while a typical airliner is over 100 feet in length. That, and most airliners cruise in the low to mid-30's while the Learjets often cruise between 35,000-45,000 feet. The primary reason why I knew that was a Learjet is because I heard their callsign on the radio as being a "JOSA" callsign, which is a military Learjet, and they checked in flying the same arrival we were. Now tell me why the bottom trail turned into a huge, elongated cloud, while the other one did not. "Don't start giving me any crap about shifting upper atmospheric conditions, because they do not change drastically enough in a few hours to have any affect the outcome of those two trails" You have to understand Relative Humidity (RH) before you can make a statement that the atmosphere didn't change "drastically". RH is simply the percentage of water that the air can hold at a given temperature. For each given temperature, RH is not a linear line. For example....at 90 degrees, the air can hold 100 units of water vapor per given volume (this is just an example). At -40 degrees, the air can only hold 1 unit of water per given volume before reaching saturation. So while it would take a large increase in water vapor to affect RH at higher temps, it takes a very small increase in water vapor to affect the RH at lower temps. That's why in the summer, it feels alot more humid, while the winters are dryer. Canex's example of clouds are a good example. When the air is close to saturation (100% humidity) some spots will condensate into clouds, while others will not, simply because the RH varies by a few percentage points. This isn't a great increase in water vapor up at 30,000+ feet of altitude. At those temperatures, it would take a very minute increase in water vapor to "drastically" change the RH. Additionally, look at the exact altitudes of the aircraft on FE. They may have been at different altitudes...say one at 33,000 feet and the other at 37,000 feet. RH values can change quite a bit with height too. Honestly, I've seen both types on contrails pretty regularly flying around the US. I've even flown through the wide contrails...what happens there is the air is at saturation, and the surrounding air "feeds" off the contrails and immediately starts forming cirrus clouds from the sooty particles coming from the engines. The contrails shown in photo 1 are contrails formed when the air is saturated enough for condensation to occur, but not at 100% RH. And no, you don't need 100% RH to produce condensation. The typical rule for fog formation is to have a dew point within 4 degrees of the ambient temperature, and that will produce fog. By the way, the dew point is a function of RH.
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Alpha-Theta
Superior
ª×µ»ƒ³²²
694 posts, May 2002
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posted 07-19-2002 11:25 PM
Entertaining the thought that these 'contrails' are a direct result of variable humidity, what would one attribute to the apparent changes in our weather and atmosphere over the past decade? I ask this because as we all know, 'contrails' have not always been 'persistent' and 'expansive'.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Alpha-Theta on 07-19-2002]
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GAS_MASK
Open-Minded
151 posts, Jul 2002
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posted 07-19-2002 11:50 PM
Please direct me to some documentation regarding RH and cloud formation. I would really appreciate it.Thank you for the positive criticism, Pacer. (more later, I'm tired).....
[Edited 3 times, lastly by GAS_MASK on 07-19-2002]
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PacerLJ35
Senior Member
Millbrook, AL, USA
456 posts, Apr 2002
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posted 07-20-2002 12:11 AM
What I wrote came from my knowledge background from the weather courses I've taken and listening to lots of weather briefings before we go fly. I could go do some searching on the web for you if you'd like. Or I could go look in my AF weather book and post some quotes from that publication.
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GAS_MASK
Open-Minded
151 posts, Jul 2002
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posted 07-20-2002 03:17 AM
That'd be great, Pacer. You seem like a very knowlegable individual person, and I would like to get your input on the whole deal.If you could do some searching for me, I would be most grateful, as I don't have much time on my hands. P.S. Are you a pilot for an airline (just curious)?
[Edited 1 times, lastly by GAS_MASK on 07-20-2002]
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PacerLJ35
Senior Member
Millbrook, AL, USA
456 posts, Apr 2002
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posted 07-21-2002 10:13 PM
Sorry I haven't had any time to look up that stuff...I'm in the process of moving furniture and converting my old office into a nursery for my soon-to-be son.My background - I spent about 4 years flying helicopters for the Army National Guard, and I've been flying for the Air Force for about 2 years now. I currently fly Learjet 35s. I also do some private flying on the side...when I can afford it. I'll get those references to you as soon as I put my office back together.
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theseeker
One moon circles
Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
3403 posts, Jul 2000
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posted 07-22-2002 02:12 AM
gasmask...not to be rude, but your avatar is hiddeous...revolting...and the same one chem11 uses...God forbid you 2 engage in a conversation...the mere site of it would surely cause gastrointestinal problems...on my end...some input from another board, the try the math part is where I sit on this whole deal : newsartist
LWXI Community Forums moderator/ facilitator Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Attleboro, MA
Posts: 192 Sorry Pete, a solid case of Bravo Sierra
Sorry Pete, but this whole issue can be taken apart frame-by-frame and discounted.
It may fly on the tabloid level, (or politico seeking reelection level), but would have the folks on the flightline howling with glee.
There are way too many things wrong with the story from an airplane perspective. How many missions to put that much crud in the air? For how long? Try the math.... As to contrails when the fleet was grounded. We had them here too, ...think I reported on that on this page in fact. Fighters and tankers doing their job. We had a Civil War event the following weekend, and I watched F-15s refueling on a tanker track right over us the whole time. ...raised the blood pressure a bit though when one would blast off at "Warp 9" to check something out! We never got banged, but there were several visible Mach runs toward NY. CFB Comox is an air defense base. I spent a lot of time there as a parasitic-beer drinking journalist when 409 Squadron was the best Voodoo outfit in the world. Today, "the Nighthawks" fly CF-18 Hornets and watch our back door VERY WELL INDEED. As to contrail height....after 50 years of watching, I still can't tell without a reference, shadow, visible airplane etc. And this matters. As little as a thousand feet can make all the difference in the world how contrails live after they are formed. Airplanes going the same direction are usually no closer than 2,000 feet vertically. Two planes, one level apart can exhibit vastly different cons at the same moment in time. Now if someone could explain the ENGINE contrails from the DC-10 we saw at 4-5,000 feet one moonlight summer night night a couple of years ago.... Paul maybe pacer could analyze some of the technical aspects of this man's statement regarding aircraft.... the last paragraph is curious....is temperature at -35 possible in Attleboro, MA @ 4-5,000 ft in the summertime ? http://www.weatherimages.org/forums/showthread.php?s=5fc86936089173690073d82ecefea5ce&threadid=754&highlight=chemtrails+contrails
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T/S
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GAS_MASK
Open-Minded
151 posts, Jul 2002
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posted 07-22-2002 04:24 AM
What is this? A debunkers convention? My previous avatar is hideous? Ok, ok. I've since unmasked her and she turned out to be Bubbles. Lordy!  I know the same avatar was used by Chem11, however, I believe it fits my profile much better for some odd reason ("gee I wonder what that could be, GM......") BTW, Chem and I have engaged in several conversations and I still haven't had to buy a bottle of Maalox yet. (more pertinent info later.....)
[Edited 1 times, lastly by GAS_MASK on 07-22-2002]
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roman
Senior Member
Marietta Ohio USA
407 posts, Sep 2000
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posted 07-22-2002 10:52 AM
Just looking at those pictures makes me wonder,I bet that someone gives those jets a wash job from time to time.I bet a sample of the wash water would be helpful to Clifford.roman...
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GAS_MASK
Open-Minded
151 posts, Jul 2002
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posted 07-22-2002 06:13 PM
Would that procedure yield conclusive lab test results?
[Edited 1 times, lastly by GAS_MASK on 07-22-2002]
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Dan Rockwell
Hoka hey! - heyokas!
Stamford, CT, USA
1750 posts, Dec 2001
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posted 07-22-2002 11:02 PM
quote:
BTW, Chem and I have engaged in several conversations and I still haven't had to buy a bottle of Maalox yet.
Gas_Mask, I was going to mention to T/S last night that you knew Chem11 but didn't want to give him a bad case of heartburn on top of his indigestion. 
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theseeker
One moon circles
Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
3403 posts, Jul 2000
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posted 07-23-2002 01:38 AM
lol dan...what's so disgusting to me about that photo is it look's like annie lennox, preparing for some weird sex act or something... eeewwww... I know mask is a *regular* at chemm's island retreat...along with mr. howl the skipper and the others... chem does not have any smoker's there dan...and designated area's for smoking are against my constitutional rights... so I'll just have to wait here for that *pertinent data*....
from the most recent storm chasing expedition...  ------------------
T/S
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