posted 09-26-2002 05:25 AM            

"Including NATO", are you seriously suggesting that all of the member nations of NATO are into this, i work with NATO on a regular basis, operating from varies bases around Europe and North America, trust me I've never seen a "Chemtrailer".

As for atmospheric monitoring, most countries in the developed world have some form of national atmospheric monitoring. These I assure you are not part of the US DoD.

As for the remainder of your post, resorting to such phrases as "You must be a rocket scientist, oh no, I forgot your just a commercial pilot. And I hope you're good at that because you haven't got a clue otherwise." really is childish and quite frankly does nothing to help your cause.

Maybe you guys should concentrate more on real threats to the US rather than these imaginary ones.

posted 09-26-2002 06:51 AM            

Additionally, Mr. Jammer, Do you have any Idea what the word 'covert' means. how about 'esoteric'. Then we'll define deception. All this is intended to illustrate and help you realize how this could all be done, unwittingly by most, at the insidious level of the military/industrial complex through elongated social engineering, perceptions control, and propoganda. Here we go.

quote:

---

cov·ert
adj.
Not openly practiced, avowed, engaged in, accumulated, or shown: covert military operations; covert funding for the rebels. See Synonyms at secret.
Covered or covered over; sheltered.
Law. Being married and therefore protected by one's husband.

n.
A covering or cover.

A covered place or shelter; hiding place.
Thick underbrush or woodland affording cover for game.
Zoology. One of the small feathers covering the bases of the longer feathers of a bird's wings or tail.
A flock of coots. See Synonyms at flock1.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English, from Old French, from past participle of covrir, to cover. See cover.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
covert·ly adv.
covert·ness n.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

covert

\Cov"ert\, n. [OF. See Covert, a.] 1. A place that covers and protects; a shelter; a defense.

A tabernacle . . . for a covert from storm. --Is. iv. 6.

The highwayman has darted from his covered by the wayside. --Prescott.

2. [Cf. F. couverte.] (Zo["o]l.) One of the special feathers covering the bases of the quills of the wings and tail of a bird. See Illust. of Bird.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

covert

\Cov"ert\ (k?v"?rt), a. [OF. covert, F. couvert, p. p. of couvrir. See Cover, v. t.] 1. Covered over; private; hid; secret; disguised.

How covert matters may be best disclosed. --Shak.

Whether of open war or covert guile. --Milton

2. Sheltered; not open or exposed; retired; protected; as, a covert nook. -- Wordsworth.

Of either side the green, to plant a covert alley. --Bacon.

3. (Law) Under cover, authority or protection; as, a feme covert, a married woman who is considered as being under the protection and control of her husband.

Covert way, (Fort.) See Covered way, under Covered.

Syn: Hidden; secret; private; covered; disguised; insidious; concealed. See Hidden.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

---

quote:

---

es·o·ter·ic Pronunciation Key (s-trk)
adj.

Intended for or understood by only a particular group: an esoteric cult. See Synonyms at mysterious.
Of or relating to that which is known by a restricted number of people.

Confined to a small group: esoteric interests.
Not publicly disclosed; confidential.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Greek esterikos, from ester, comparative of es, within. See en in Indo-European Roots.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
eso·teri·cal·ly adv.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

esoteric

\Es`o*ter"ic\, a. Marked by secrecy or privacy; private; select; confidential; as, an esoteric purpose; an esoteric meeting.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

esoteric

\Es`o*ter"ic\, n. (Philos.) (a) An esoteric doctrine or treatise; esoteric philosophy; esoterics. (b) One who believes, or is an initiate, in esoteric doctrines or rites.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

esoteric

\Es`o*ter"ic\ ([e^]s`[-o]*t[e^]"[i^]k), a. [Gr. 'eswteriko`s, fr. 'esw`teros inner, interior, comp. fr. 'e`sw in, within, fr. 'es, e'is, into, fr. 'en in. See In.] Designed for, and understood by, the specially initiated alone; not communicated, or not intelligible, to the general body of followers; private; interior; acroamatic; -- said of the private and more recondite instructions and doctrines of philosophers. Opposed to exoteric.

Enough if every age produce two or three critics of this esoteric class, with here and there a reader to understand them. --De Quincey.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

---

quote:

---

de·cep·tion Pronunciation Key (d-spshn)
n.
The use of deceit.
The fact or state of being deceived.
A ruse; a trick.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English decepcioun, from Old French deception, from Late Latin dcepti, dceptin-, from Latin dceptus, past participle of dcipere, to deceive. See deceive.]

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

deception

\De*cep"tion\, n. [F. d['e]ception, L. deceptio, fr. decipere, deceptum. See Deceive.] 1. The act of deceiving or misleading. --South.

2. The state of being deceived or misled.

There is one thing relating either to the action or enjoyments of man in which he is not liable to deception. --South.

3. That which deceives or is intended to deceive; false representation; artifice; cheat; fraud.

There was of course room for vast deception. --Motley.

Syn: Deception, Deceit, Fraud, Imposition.

Usage: Deception usually refers to the act, and deceit to the habit of the mind; hence we speak of a person as skilled in deception and addicted to deceit. The practice of deceit springs altogether from design, and that of the worst kind; but a deception does not always imply aim and intention. It may be undesigned or accidental. An imposition is an act of deception practiced upon some one to his annoyance or injury; a fraud implies the use of stratagem, with a view to some unlawful gain or advantage.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

deception

n 1: a misleading falsehood [syn: misrepresentation, deceit] 2: the act of deceiving [syn: deceit, dissembling, dissimulation] 3: an illusory feat; considered magical by naive observers [syn: magic trick, conjuring trick, trick, magic, legerdemain, illusion]
Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University

---

posted 09-26-2002 10:04 PM            

From the great open minded Lo-The-Seektress home page: htp://users.ev1.net/~seektress/hits.htm

Why are these Government, Military
and Industrial Complex type folks and
their buddies visiting my little old website?
WHAT are they looking for?

**GOVERNMENT VISITORS**

Executive Office Of The President, USA, Washington, DC
(This one I REALLY don't get, there's NOTHING about cigars on my pages)
U.S. Senate, Washington, DC
(So where's the House? I'm sure we'd ALL like to know the answer to that one.)

The Pentagon, Washington, DC
(Funny shape, that building, huh?)

National Weather Service, Central Region HQ, Kansas City, MO
(Umm, what exactly are those pulsating radar blobs
we've been watching come on at night, over my mom's house, in the drought areas, huh?
Look here.
Something tells me I'm not in Kansas City anymore Toto)

Federal Aviation Administration, Washington, DC
(Shouldn't THEY know who's up there? That's what I thought.)

U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Research Triangle Park, NC
(I'm still trying to figure out exactly WHOSE environment these guys are trying to protect.)

Federal Emergency Management Agency, Washington, DC
(Managing your nation's emergencies from start to finish.)

U.S. Department of the Interior, Washington, DC
(I think this place is supposed to change over
to some sort of Parks Dept. or something like that, ask the UN.)

General Services Administration, Washington, DC

Sandia National Laboratories, Kirtland Air Force Base, Albuquerque, NM
(The other big secret lab in New Mexico,
they just had fewer Chinese spies, so you didn't hear as much about them.)

National Institutes of Health Bethesda, MD
(Can you guys tell me why most of my club members have "flu-like" symptoms?
And don't try to tell me there's a vaccine for that. I'm not interested.)

7th Communications Group, 1600 Air Force Pentagon, Washington, DC
(You tell me. ???)

Resolution Trust Corporation, Washington, DC
(Trust no one.)

Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Oak Ridge, TN
(What's all this dust? It's NUCLEAR WASTE! Ooppss!)

NASA Headquarters, Washington, DC
(Hey all you NASA guys..what about that FACE on Mars, huh?
Have you EVER seen anything like it?!?

WELL NEITHER HAVE WE!!!
I want my money back!!! Grrr!!)

NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, MD

Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Network DOD Network Information Center, Chantilly, VA
(Hey JPL, is it really true that Jack Parsons worshipped Satan?)

NASA Johnson Space Center, Houston, TX
(Hey neighbor, exactly how much did Disney sock us for all that stuff? Or was it a swap deal?)

NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
NASA Headquarters, Network Sustaining Engineering, Pasadena, CA
Lockheed Information Technology Company, Denver, CO
Energy Sciences Network DOE, Hadley, MA

Architect of the Capitol, U.S. Capitol Washington, DC
(Who are you and what are you doing here?)

FTS/ 2001/ US Consumer Product, Bethesda, MD
Department of Justice, Ottawa, Ontario; CANADA
State of Georgia/Board of Regents, Marietta, GA
Executive Office of Asset Forfeiture, McLean, VA
(Too late, I'm already broke. :-P )

State of Ohio, Dept. of Administrative Services, Columbus, Ohio
(Pssst!! - There's a Great Ohio Warrior Goddess that's been trying to reach you.
Call her back, she's really very nice.)

Fedworld/NTIS/Deptment of Commerce, Springfield, VA
Fermilab, Batavia, IL
Texas Water Commission, Texas Natural Resource Conservation, Austin, TX
Denver Water Department, Denver, CO
PA Department of Environmental Resources, Harrisburg, PA
US Dept of Justice, Rockville, MD
State of Louisiana, Division of Administration, Baton Rouge, LA
Salt River Project Agricultural Improvement & Power District, Tempe, AZ
Maricopa County, Phoenix, AZ
Harris County Technology Center, Houston, TX

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**MILITARY VISITORS**

What can I say?
I don't get why ANY of these guys visit my site.

Nellis Air Force Base, Defense Systems Support, Nellis AFB, NV
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, 645 C-CSG/SCMN, OH
Commander Naval Surface U.S. Pacific Fleet, Naval Station, San Diego, CA
Fleet Technical Support Center Pacific, San Diego, CA
Defense Systems Support Organization, Reston, VA
377 Communication Squadron, Kirtland AFB, NM
Hugh Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards Air Force Base, CA
Trident Refit Facility, Silverdale, WA
Naval Command Control & Ocean Surveillance, San Diego, CA
Naval Warfare Assessment Division, Corona, CA
Naval Surface Warfare Center, Port Hueneme, CA
Naval Surface Warfare Center, Commander, Dahlgren, VA
Naval Air Systems Command, Patuxent River, MD
NCTS-NOLA, New Orleans, LA
DLA Systems Automation Center, El Segundo, CA
Air Force Logistics Command, Kelly AFB, TX
516th Signal Brigade, Honolulu, HI
TRW Space and Defense Sector,One Space Park, Redondo Beach, CA
Army Information Systems Command, Proving Ground, MD
EG&G Rocky Flats Plant, Golden, CO
United States Air Force, Hurlburt, FL
Air Force Flight Test Center, 95 CS/SCBNM, Edwards Air Force Base, CA
Naval Aviation Depot,NAS North Island, San Diego, CA
AEGIS Training Center, Naval Sea Systems Command, Arlington, VA
Naval Postgraduate School, Monterey, CA
Marine Corps Combat Development Command, Quantico, VA
Energy Sciences Network,Lawrence Berkeley Lab, Berkeley, CA
Puget Sound Naval Shipyard, Bremerton, WA
On-Site Inspection Agency, OSIA/DSIA, Dulles International Airport, Washington, DC
Munitions System Division, Eglin AFB, FL
PEO STAMIS CMD HQUSACE, Washington, DC
75 ABW, 75 CS/SCBE, Hill AFB, UT
77 CS/SCCN, McClellan AFB
62 CS/SCSN, McChord AFB, WA
6 Communications Squadron/SCSND, MacDill AFB, FL
Corporate Information Center, Redstone Arsenal, AL
Army Armament Research Development & Engineering Center, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ
US Army Tank-Automotive Command, Warren, MI
Pearl Harbor Naval, Pearl Harbor, HI
Navy Aviation Supply Office, Commanding Officer,
Naval Inventory Control Point, Philadelphia, PA
USMC Network Operations Center, Quantico, VA
ARMY-CZ, Czech Army, CZ

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**CORPORATE VISITORS**

I've been thinking of charging a buck a visit to these guys,
heck they can afford it.
I first have to give very special recognition to my most frequent corporate visitor.

The Boeing Company, Seal Beach, CA

This nice company comes to my site to visit every single day, any time of the day or night.
They go there more than I do.
There is rarely a grab of 100 hits that does not reveal at least one visit from those guys.
Weird huh?

I even put a "Top Secret Message" to them on my website.
I wanted to make them feel at home.

Raytheon Company, Executive Office, Lexington, MA
(A major player in the military and industrial complex, you give me a complex.)

Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC), San Diego, CA
(Our friendly neighborhood net sserdda assigner. SAIC -backwards = CIA's, and is run by Inman, rumored to be involved with the most advanced Black Ops technology.)

Monsanto Company, St. Louis, MO
(This is that company with the terrible identity crisis,
they think they're Mother Nature and they're really Dr. Frankenstein)

Eli Lilly and Company, Indianapolis, IN
(Drugs, drugs, drugs, drugs)

Texaco, Bellaire, TX
Westinghouse Electric Co., Monroeville, PA

Lucent Technologies, Naperville, IL
(See Raytheon)

ARINC, Annapolis, MD
(This is the place I use to ID my visitors, them watching me watching them)

Amoco Corporation, Houston, TX
Grumman Corporation, Bethpage, NY
Rockwell International Corporation, Seal Beach CA

Rockwell Automation, Milwaukee, WI
(Excuse me, but I think one of your employees missed that one orientation class.
You know, the one about NOT sending death threats to people?
Check on that for me will you? Thanks so much.)

Lockheed Martin Astronautics, Denver, CO
Coopers and Lybrand, Tampa, FL
Dow Jones, Princeton, NJ
Paramount Pictures Corp, Hollywood, CA
Gulf Interstate Engineering, Houston, TX
Nor Am Energy, Houston, TX
IBM Global Services, Bedford, NH
Bechtel Corp. Houston, TX
H L & P, Houston, TX
JD Edwards, Denver, CO
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
Nebraska Public Power District, Columbus, NE
Microsoft Corporation, One Microsoft Way, Redmond, WA
DuPont, Wilmington, DE
Walt Disney Corporation, Glendale, CA
NBC, 30 Rockefeller Plaza, New York, NY
Continental Airlines, Houston, TX
General Electric Corporate Information Management, Princeton, NJ
Siemens Rolm, Santa Clara, CA
Eastman Kodak, Rochester, NY
Dell Computer Corporation, Round Rock, TX
Shell Services International, Houston, TX
Paine Webber Capital Markets, New York, NY
Hewlett-Packard Company, Palo Alto, CA
IBM Corporation, Milford, CT
McDonald's Corporation, McDonald's Plaza Oak Brook, IL
Apple Computer, Inc.,Cupertino, CA
Performance Systems International, Herndon, V
The Dow Chemical Co., Midland, MI
American Dental Association, Chicago, IL
BTI, Raleigh, NC
HBO & Company, Atlanta, GA
Daniel Industries, Inc., Houston, TX
Corning Incorporated, Corning, NY
International Corporation, Seal Beach, CA
Consolidated Freight, Portland, OR
Federal Express Corporation, Memphis, TN
Level 3 Communications, LLC, Louisville, CO
Aluminum Company of America, Pittsburgh, PA
Hughes Electronics, Los Angeles, CA
Hekimian Laboratories, Inc., Rockville, MD
Fujitsu-ICL North America, Dallas, TX
The First National Bank of Chicago, Chicago, IL
Schlumberger Information Network, Sugar Land, TX
Shell Services International, Inc., Houston, TX
Amerada Hess, Houston, TX
Coastal Natural Gas Company, Houston, TX
Smith International, Houston, TX
Burlington Northern Railroad, St Paul, MN
Texas Instruments Computer Science Center, Dallas, TX
Deutshe Bank, North America, New York, NY
Chase Manhattan Bank, N.A., Brooklyn, NY
NationsBank, Baltimore, MD
Bank of America, San Francisco, CA
General Electric Co., Princeton, NJ
3M Company, St. Paul, MN
Whirlpool Corporation, Benton Harbor, MI
Digital Equipment Corporation, Network Systems Laboratory, Palo Alto, CA
Digital Equipment Corporation, Houston, TX
Merrill Corporation, Saint Paul, MN
The Goodyear Tire & Rubber Company, Akron, OH
Citicorp Global Information Network, Long Island City, NY
Allstate Insurance Company, Northbrook, IL
Ford Motor Company, Dearborn, MI
EDS/GM, Troy, MI
American Digital Network, San Diego, CA
VTC, Inc., Bloomington, MN
Dell Computer Corporation, Round Rock, TX
Entergy Corporation, Gretna, LA
Hughes E.C., Lancaster, CA
Harris Trust & Savings Bank, Chicago, IL

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**EDUCATION ORGANIZATION VISITORS**

You know, one would think they'd be much smarter than to hang out
at a website that is about things that aren't REAL, wouldn't one?
Harvard University, Cambridge, MA
Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, Woods Hole, MA
University of Texas, M.D. Anderson Cancer Center, Houston, TX
Rutgers University, Busch Campus, Piscataway, NJ
Cornell University, Ithaca, NY
Rice University, Houston, TX
Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, TX
Stanford University Network, Stanford, CA
Boston University, Boston, MA
California State University, Sacramento, CA
University of Nevada, Reno, NV
DNIC Massachusetts, Hadley, MA
University of Southwestern Louisiana, Lafayette, LA
Allegheny Health Education and Research Foundation, Pittsburgh, PA
University of Oregon, Eugene, OR
Northeast Louisiana University, Monroe, LA
Cincinnati Bible College, Cincinnati, OH
University of California, Santa Barbara, CA
University of Washington, Seattle, WA
Youngstown State University, Youngstown, OH
University of Houston, Houston, TX
Florida State University, Tallahassee, FL
Iowa State University, Ames, IA
University of Kansas, Lawrence, KS
University of Illinois, Urbana, IL
Wharton County Junior College, Sugar Land, TX
Western Michigan University, Kalamazoo, MI
Ojibwe School, Clouquet, MN
Houston Independent School District, Houston, TX

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**FOREIGN AFFAIRS VISITORS**

This is kind of like my military visitors.
What the heck are ya'll doing here?
Czech Army General Staff, Prague, The Czech Republic
Department of Justice, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Office of the Auditor General of Canada, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
( BTW, I loved that old "Ontario" commercial. My brother and I sang it all the time.)
Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, Ontario, Canada
Department of Defence HQDCG, Non Portable Allocation, Australia
Oxford University, United Kingdom
Department of Fisheries and Oceans, ON, Canada
GRNET NOC, Greek Research and Technology Network, General Secretariat of Research and Technology, Ministry of Industry, Energy and Technology, Athens, Greece
National Center for Science Information System, Tokyo, Japan
Grupo IMSA S.A. de C.V., Batallon de San Patricio, San Pedro, Mexico
Istituto Nazionale di Fisica Nucleare, Bologna, Italy
RNP, (Brazilian Research Network), Sao Paulo, Brazil
Bureau of Meteorology, Director of Meteorology, Melbourne, Vic., Australia
HT - Croatian Telecommunications, Zagreb, Croatia
Nanyang Technological University, SG
Dattelkabel, The Czech Republic
SINET, TEGUCIGALPA, HN
University of Strathclyde, Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom
University of Tasmania, Tasmania, Australia
University of the Saarland, Saarbruecken, Germany
The University of St. Andrews, Fife, United Kingdom
Japan Network Information Center,Tokyo, Japan
University of Lausanne, Switzerland
Centre Informatique, Lausanne, Switzerland
University of Nijmegen, Nijmegen, Nederland
The University of Birmingham, United Kingdom
North Tyneside Council, Howard House Commercial North Shields
Cape Provincial Administration, Cape Town, South Africa
Pangea.CA, Inc.,Winnipeg, MB, Canada
Province of New Brunswick, Fredericton, New Brunswick
Marasuca Multimedia, Quebec, Canada

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why would those types of people come to see reports about something that supposedly wasn't REAL? I mean, sure, there's office workers and student surfers out there on their lunch breaks and after hours and weekends, I get that. Just because one gets a hit from Microsoft doesn't mean that Bill Gates is behind the monitor. I get that too. But, if this is such a scam and a hoax, why were these people wasting their time at an everyday, middle aged, single mother's website? It didn't make sense. The only pictures I had were rated "G".

So there ya go. You tell me

Citizen Alert...Please check out the Contrail/Chemtrail Issue

CLICK HERE
Chem Trails Tracking USA

posted 09-26-2002 10:56 PM            

Where are ya from and what's your background?

posted 09-27-2002 09:41 AM            

In situations where incoming commercial aircraft are stacked up over airports waiting their turn to land, what are the minimum and maximum altitudes at which these aircraft will be placed by ATC?

posted 09-27-2002 11:11 AM            

To answer your question, they don't stack airplanes over an airport to sequence them for landing. At any major airport, there specific arrival routes called STARS (Standard terminal arrival routes). Think of them as roads to the airport. Airplanes are funneled into the airport via the STARS. The direction from which they are arriving determines which STAR they get. Typically spacing is achieved enroute via speed restrictions or holding patterns. If they have to hold airplanes, it's typically at a point along the STAR, rather than over the airport itself.

posted 09-27-2002 12:27 PM            

"Why would those types of people come to see reports about something that supposedly wasn't REAL? "

Entertainment. TV is boring. Nothing is as entertaining as seeing real peaople (are you real?) getting wrapped into a paranoic fritz over a misinterpretation of a common everyday occurrence. Think of it. Where else can you go to find such a wide variety of out-to-lunch theories that are invoked to explain the transformation of water vapor to ice? It makes the medieval theories of the natural world seem almost accurate.

Prophylaxis. Paranoia and misinterpretations of reality that are disseminated as fact in a public medium have the potential for infecting the public, especially one that was subjected to a science-weak education, with falsehoods that can generate: mental harm (more paranoia, needless worry), possible physical harm (overdoses of colloidal silver and other snake oil peddled to combat "chemtrail maladies"), intellectual harm (check out the logic and physics for all of the theories), and monetary harm (fundraising for in situ analyses, video tape sales, cloud busters, snake oil, etc.). not to mention the needless abuse that is heaped on the military and government. Prevention of the spread of this type of disease is challenging and necessary. How many inquiring minds have been roped into the chemnoid cult because they were convinced by the tantalizing tales of a government and military-industrial complex gone amok turning water vapor into ice?

posted 09-27-2002 02:33 PM            

Well canex, we see the formation of these trails almost on a daily basis. - I could understand if it happens occasionally, but almost every day? - Come on Canex! - We've gone almost a year here without a break.

There is no way in hell that the conditions necessary for the formation of NORMAL TRAILS could happen on almost a daily basis for almost a whole year. - And prior to last year, we would only see an occasional trail, but only in cold weather!

There was also supposed to be a lull in the formation of trails during the summer, wasn't there? - Well... we only had a few days where we didn't see the formation of trails and even then, there was still a haze in the sky. - And I can understand that a trail might possibly persist for a while, but over 8 hours?

In the past 10 years, I've spent a lot of time outside doing environmental work as well as work with determining solar alignments with certain archaeological sites, which requires, besides running countless numbers of complex computer simulations, requires a great deal of time looking up at the sky.

And in those 10 years, don't you think that I or any members of my research team or wildlife habitat rehab crews would have noticed these trails? - Well... we only noticed it happen maybe 2 or 3 times and that was just prior to November of 2001 and then after that all hell broke loose and it hasn't let up one bit since then.

When we first took a serious interest in these supposedly normal trails, we had our own local debunkers, but even they are beginning to have doubts that they are seeing is normal now.

That's all I've got for now.

posted 09-27-2002 08:38 PM            

Again, typically controllers avoid holding patterns by giving speed restrictions, vectoring conflicts off the route temporarily, and assigning intermediate altitudes to descend to.

posted 09-27-2002 08:46 PM            

I edited canex's words so they more appropriately fit the point that I am making. the words between >>>>> <<<<< were inserted, replacing canex's original redundant spiel about typical and normal contrail condensation.

Canex wrote

quote:

---

Entertainment. TV is boring. Nothing is as entertaining as seeing real peaople (are you real?) getting wrapped into a paranoic fritz over a misinterpretation of a common everyday occurrence. Think of it. Where else can you go to find such a wide variety of out-to-lunch theories that are invoked to explain the transformation of >>>>chemical compounds in the upper atmosphere, *or unjustifiably attacking a state for developing weapons that we already have*<<<<Prophylaxis. Paranoia and misinterpretations of reality that are disseminated as fact in a public medium have the potential for infecting the public, especially one that was subjected to a science-weak education,

---

That is so ironic that you take that position, in regard to your socratic statements. For it seems that this is exactly what is occuring in the form of proaction based on paranoia in IRAQ. ROFL. Canex, you did an excellent job at summing up current industrial events. thank you.

Furthermore your transparent attempts at manipulating the truth are not unusually insufficient.

Needless abuse on the government?? LMAO. People expressing their opinions and stating FACTs about ameriKa is abuse? You guys are so full of it it's second nature for you. The Government is supposed to be for the people, not for the corporations. And that's basically what it's boiling down to right now, bub.

Lastly there is nothing 'chemnoid' about any of this. I am hardly intrigued by chemtrails nearly as I am the overall and elongated manipulation and deception of 'life' as we come to know it. All compliments of those who want power, greed, and control. People who are willing to murder complete strangers for the benefit of materialistic and pseudo-psycho-phenomona . Chemtrails do exist, and occur. It's not the same thing as condensation, and the humidity would not possibly be that variable. You've watched to sky. You know. Deep in the back of your extremely thick cranium, within that depraved tissue known as your brain, you know the TRUTH. But you'll never admit it, you'll only continue to attempt to 'twist' it. and for that, I really honestly do pity you. Sycophancy is a terrible thing and perhaps it should be a new 'diplomatic' term, eh?

posted 09-27-2002 09:15 PM            

Thank you for your replies to my question. Please forgive my use of the term "stacked", which I did not mean literally but as more of a figure of speech.

Be that as it may, the matter I wish to confirm is this:

.....As for altitudes coming into the airport--it varies from airport to airport, but they are somewhat similar....I'll use Saint Louis for an example, because that's where I fly in an out of. About 100 miles out planes are around 15,000, then about 40 miles out, turboprops are at 8,000 and jets are at 10,000.....

So - in general, the minimum altitude for this queuing procedure, depending on aircraft type, would be 8,000 feet - and the maximum, 15,000 feet.

Do I understand this correctly?

posted 09-27-2002 09:18 PM            

.....I am hardly intrigued by chemtrails nearly as I am the overall and elongated manipulation and deception of 'life' as we come to know it.....

Bullseye.

I think you speak for a great many of us.

posted 09-27-2002 09:50 PM            

Cheer up!

With regard to your question "WHICH VISITOR ARE YOU?"

Would you believe me if I told you? Afterall, you believe nothing else I have proffered.

posted 09-28-2002 10:16 AM            

The minimum altitudes really depend on what STAR you're talking about. And not all airports have STARs, so the arrivals are alot more random.

Aircraft can hold as low as the MVA (Minimum Vectoring Altitude), which can be as low as 1,500 feet above the ground. Aircraft can also hold very high as well.

Case in point....I've held in the Learjet as low as 2,000 feet on training missions, and I've held as high as 24,000 feet going into Dayton OH (Wright-Patterson AFB had freezing rain falling at the time).

You can hold at either a "published" holding pattern, which are depicted on charts, or you can be given holding instructions at a non-published holding fix. When we held going into Dayton, we were flying along an airway. The controller said "hold present position"...there wasn't a published holding pattern where we were....we just started a right-hand holding pattern right where we were.

Deborah, here's a bit of advice. You can't try to make definitive "rules" about a subject that is very situationally dependent. In other words, trying to say that the lowest anyone will hold is 8,000 feet, or that airplanes only arrive at major airfields via STARs, or that they only hold on the STARs, is misleading because it might be correct 60% of the time, but it doesn't cover every situation by far.

Just like those people that say it must be a "black helicopter" because it's flying lower than the FAA-mandated rules that call for 500 feet over open areas and 1,000 feet over cities....what they didn't bother to read about is FAR 91.119 (d) which states that helicopters are exempt so long as they do not pose a hazard to persons or property on the ground.

posted 09-28-2002 11:22 AM            

HELICOPTERS may be operated at LESS than the minumum requirements of(b) (over congeted areas f a city town or settlement or assembly of persons at an altitude of 1000ft abpve the highest obstacle) OR (c) (an altitude of 500 ft above a surface, exept over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases they may not operate closer than 500 ft.), OF this section IF the operation is conducted without hazards to persons or property on the surfce.

NOT a "so-called pilot"

posted 09-28-2002 11:24 AM            

Thank you for your reply.

I'm not trying to make "definitive rules" about anything, let alone matters with which I have little or no direct experience. And it would never even occur to me to "quote aviation rules."

I am trying to get a sense of what GENERALLY occurs in regard to queuing of aircraft approaching commercial airports with intent to land. I am not referring to "special situations" here, although I am very aware that special situations do exist and may emerge at any time.

My question is: In general, the maximum altitude at which aircraft would be placed by ATC for holding prior to final descent into most commercial airports would not exceed 24,000 feet - correct?