posted 10-01-2002 09:10 AM            

(Oh that was for Pacer......)

I'll just chip in my two cents anyway:

The following diagram shows the anatomy of a standard holding pattern;

Next shows what type of entries a pilot makes depending on aircraft heading relative to the holding fix. There are three types; direct, parallel and teardrop entries;

Next shows the effect of wind drift on holding pattern shape. Obviously wind drift is going to affect contrail shape.

posted 10-01-2002 11:12 AM            

quote:

---

Yes you are imagining things. If you go to sleep, it will be all better in the morning.

---

Ok, I'm still imagining things. --- Yoda started another page. --- Good --- Now I've got plenty of room for my little rant/discussion.

quote:

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Is Larry stating unqualified opinion OR has he presented a highly factual case here based upon evidence and logic?

---

In my own personal experience, Ive got people here, including myself, Krissa and my girlfriend that are still sick with a highly persistent sinus infection that we developed after attending a 3 day outdoor event that there was a lot of chemtrail activity at for the first night. - And besides being a chemmie??? - I am also a volunteer firefighter and a currently recertifying EMT with almost 20 years on the job and before this year, I had never - ever - had so many people that had to be transported to the hospital --- that were found to be suffering from some type of mysterious virus. Coincidentally, (of course)these occurred mostly on heavy spray days or when the sky was covered by a thick haze. And both I and Krissa have pretty much documented a rather disturbing number of either previously extinct viruses and diseases as well as a whole bunch of nasty new ones that have, coincidentally emerged within the
same time frame as this non-existent chemtrail activity.

OH BOY- YODA, - YOU GOT ME IN THE RIGHT FRAME OF MIND TO FINALLY BE ABLE TO FOCUS ON THIS TOPIC OF DISCUSSION.

Hey, I'll even let you drag it back to Mav's board so that Deb, Mav, Sceptic, LTC???, Duncan and the rest of the bunch can play with it. - I don't seem to be the topic of conversation over there for some reason and it's been bugging me. I mean you pick on Alpha, Chem11, etc. but haven't really said anything about me and Krissa except for maybe one or 2 comments and we kind of feel left out over here and being a moderator, I know that Mav lurks around over here occasionally so even he must know we exist.

Well that's enough of that...

Now lets talk HYPOTHETICALLY about a potential delivery system for biologicals that just made a bunch of people's jaws drop here when I gave it to them here because it was not beyond the parameters of our current technology. - I'm just hashing it out here in its right off the top of my head based on my scienttific knowledge after having to come up with a whole variety of ways to kill people for 3 science fiction novels that are in various stages of completion that I hope to be able to finish some day. - (That explains my interest in Cy's own writing ability - At one time, I couldn't even write an essay, but then "bang" - I came up with a 652 page novel that's on the back burner right now for various reasons - so I know how difficult it is to write things down sometimes) Besides, being a writer, I also, as a hobby, used to design and sometimes create new types of martial arts weapons for no particular reason.

Well anyway...

Of course some people have said that a biological sprayed at an altitude of above a certain number of miles could never reach the ground in a specific target area. - The last time I looked, most doctors couldn't figure out how to cure the common cold and we got people underestimating our ability to do all kinds of nasty things to people after being us being worried about certain biologicals extending beyond the specific target area.. .

And... we really still don't understood the all the potential modes of transmission for certain viruses etc. and their tolerance levels and we have found all kinds of bugs living under an extreme range of conditions, from freezing cold environments to boiling hot ones ... where no life should be able to exist. Hell I just read something about some bug being highly resistent to radiation that I got to go look for again because I didn't think the article relavent??? until the writing of this post. (If you're wondering about the "???" marks, I just don't want to lose my focus.)

Luckily Art Bell's web-master posted the link to it on the abynormal??? page.

________________________________________________________________________

Tough Earth bug may be from Mars

19:00 25 September 02

Exclusive from New Scientist Print Edition

A hardy microbe that can withstand huge doses of radiation could have evolved this ability on Mars.

That is the conclusion of Russian scientists who say it would take far longer than life has existed here for the bug to evolve that ability in Earth's clement conditions. They suggest the harsher environment of Mars makes it a more likely birthplace.

The hardy bugs could have travelled to Earth on pieces of rock that were blasted into space by an impacting asteroid and fell to Earth as meteorites.

Deinococcus radiodurans is renowned for its resistance to radiation - it can survive several thousand times the lethal dose for humans. To investigate how the trait might have evolved, Anatoli Pavlov and his colleagues from the Ioffe Physico-Technical Institute in St Petersburg tried to induce it in E. coli.

99.9 per cent deadly

They blasted the bugs with enough gamma rays to kill 99.9 per cent of them, let the survivors recover, and then repeated the process. During the first cycle just a hundredth of the lethal human dose was enough to wipe out 99.9 per cent of the bacteria, but after 44 cycles it took 50 times that initial level to kill the same proportion.

However, the researchers calculate that it would take thousands of such cycles before the E. coli were as hardy as Deinococcus. And on Earth it would take between a million and a hundred million years to accumulate each dose, during which time the bugs would have to be dormant.

Since life originated on Earth about 3.8 billion years ago, Pavlov does not believe that there has been enough time for this resistance to evolve.

Dormant bugs

On Mars, however, the researchers calculate that dormant bugs could receive the necessary dose in just a few hundred thousand years, because radiation levels there are much higher.

What is more, they point out that the Red Planet wobbles on its rotation axis, producing a regular cycle of climate swings that would drive bacteria into dormancy for long enough to accumulate such doses, before higher temperatures enabled the survivors to recover and multiply. Pavlov reported the results last week at the Second European Workshop on Astrobiology in Graz, Austria.

David Morrison of NASA's Astrobiology Institute is sceptical that Deinococcus came from Mars, pointing out that its genome looks similar to those of other Earthly bacteria. But he admits that there's still no obvious explanation for the bug's resistance to radiation. "It is certainly a mystery how this trait has developed and why it persists," he says.

Stuart Clark

For more exclusive news and expert analysis every week subscribe to New Scientist print edition.
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992844

____________________________________________________________________

Hell... 9 times out of 10, if we know that something exists, it's probably been poked and prodded for a while by the military to see if it could be used as a weapon. - Of course, if they got something, better, they're eventually gonna release the inferior stuff to the civilian population so that they've got something to keep them occupied for a while.

We've also got these "rod" thingies that have supposedly emerged or been discovered over the last few years that we really don't understand that could hypothetically be used as vehicles to transport all kinds of bugs. A rod BTW, is believed to be an airborne bug-like thing, that swims through air like a fish swims through water and at high rates of speed and sometimes even against the wind.

Now hypothetically, most people would like handling these nasty biologicals even with full protection so they are sometimes encased in wax and other things to make them just a little bit safer to handle... and hypothetically, based on exhaust temperatures and other criteria, such a casing could be constructed to resist such extreme conditions and weighed just enough to be able drop at a pretty good rate of speed under the proper weather conditions, perhaps maybe with a little help from HAARP that could manipulate certain types of particulate matter that may have been caught up in the upper atmosphere during some point in the spray campaign. - Again let me just say again that we're speaking hypothetically here.

If some of these particulates weigh a certain weight, and are composed of a certain type of material, and let's say HAARP also causes some ground level electromagnetic disturbance that could hypothetically attract these particulates and occurred as a result of some other particulate matter, perhaps aluminum oxide, being sprayed during still another, much earlier, spray campaign. - And just to make sure that the aluminum oxide had time to sink into the ground, they added barium stearite to keep nuclei??? from binding to the aluminum wich probably would have just a bit carbonized if it had to travel through the exhaust. I think canex (notice that I called him canex and not conex, though he's calling himself conehead now thanks to Krissa.) knows what I'm talking about. --- It was something about something in the atmosphere being attracted to carbon in the exhaust or something like that.

posted 10-01-2002 12:45 PM            

I'll second that !

posted 10-01-2002 01:51 PM            

Now that lunch is in the microwave and I drove around enough to regain my train of thought. I know that somebody's just gonna come up with this qu estion:

"So, OK, if aluminum oxide was used in the initial spray applications, aint it gonna just blow all over the place and kind of rule out your theory of limiting the biologicals to a specific target area or something along those lines?"

Actually not. We still don't know all the specifics of HAARP or whether or not the beam that it is rumored to create can be bounced from satellite to satellite and aimed at a specific location. However, if it could be aimed then hypothetically, it could perhaps cause a magnetic disruption that could attract the particulates couldn't it? - Just take a magnet and drop metal shavings around it and see what happens.

If someone has access to a wind tunnel and one of those electromagnets and really fine-grained particulates of aluminum or anything similar that can be attracted by the magnet ... what do you think the particulates are gonna do when they're released. - I wonder.

Depending on the wind speed, they could get sucked right up by the magnet or get blown against the back wall. - I guarantee that if I am thinking about it now, somebody else has tested it out already.

posted 10-01-2002 04:19 PM            

Deborah, your concentric cirlces sound like an E3 AWACS orbit. They have various "stations" around the Eastern coast of North America and over Europe, generally centred around a geographical position, at a radius of X nautical miles (this varies depending upon the Air Force involved). These aircraft will contrail regularly due to there operating altitudes. They are there to act as a first line of Air Defence.

posted 10-01-2002 05:54 PM            

Anyway, Captain Krissa reporting for duty Moderator Dan sir. - Locked, loaded and ready for whatever comes up in here tonight for a while anyway. (Pauses to look at Yoda for a moment. - Pokes him with a stick and then checks for a pulse and tries to clear some of the smoke out of the thread.) Cough! - Cough!

Well anyway, where was I. - Oh yeah... Before I make an intelligent response to Dan's interesting topic, since I am well versed in bio-stuff, I forth that remark about Bonehead. I think I even have a picture of Bonehead playing with his friends?

Bonehead is on the right if you haven't already noticed.

Of course I've got a baby of my own Lulu And I think Dan has a dancing hunk picture that can top our baby pictures.

BTW boys, what do ya think about this for my Halloween costume?

Well now that I've had a little fun, and not wanting to rehash any of what has happened on this thread since my last visit, and looking at that picture of Alpha that I got (what a cutie BTW) ... I can focus on what Dan has written since nobody else has really responded to.

quote:

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We got people underestimating our ability to do all kinds of nasty things to people after (being) us being worried about certain biologicals extending beyond the specific target area.

---

True - That's always been a problem and why we try not to resort to the use of biologicals such as Ebola anyway.

quote:

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And... we really still don't understood the all the potential modes of transmission for certain viruses etc. and their tolerance levels and we have found all kinds of bugs living under an extreme range of conditions...

---

True. Up until a few years ago, we never imagined that any organism could survive in boiling water and then we found all kinds of things in hot springs etc.

quote:

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Hell... 9 times out of 10, if we know that something exists, it's probably been poked and prodded for a while by the military to see if it could be used as a weapon.

---

True. That's the way it happens and kind of explains certain technologies that were once extensively only used by just the Military that have made there way into the public sector.

quote:

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We've also got these "rod" thingies that have supposedly emerged or been discovered over the last few years that we really don't understand that could hypothetically be used as vehicles to transport all kinds of bugs.

---

Oh yes the rods. They would make an ideal mode of transmission for biologicals especially if they were genitically modified and released into a cold environment and programmed to seek out a heat source such as the human nose of mouth. Or even, to seek out carbon dioxide emissions just as mosquitos do. Of course, the mosquito is a very good mode of transmission without any modification.

quote:

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Now hypothetically, most people would like handling these nasty biologicals even with full protection so they are sometimes encased in wax and other things to make them just a little bit safer to handle

---

Not a hypothetical concept... Most biologicals are packaged in wax and other materials to lower the risk of contamination.

quote:

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and hypothetically, based on exhaust temperatures and other criteria, such a casing could be constructed to resist such extreme conditions and weighed just enough to be able drop at a pretty good rate of speed

---

I'll break that down a bit. It is very possible to create some type of protective coating based on some of NASA's thermal resistant technologies that they've been working on for a while now that could withstand the momentary exposure to the hot gasses that could also be biodegradable once it hit the ground. Rate of speed, not a problem if HAARP was applied as Dan noted creating a magnetic disturbance.

Now I know I've read a few posts on this board about some pretty unusual atmospheric conditions and a feeling of something like glue in the air but I'm not sure where. Such a disturbance could hypothetically be a result of some type of HAARP related anomaly since I have done some work with natural magnetic anomalies.

quote:

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If someone has access to a wind tunnel and one of those electromagnets and really fine-grained particulates of aluminum or anything similar that can be attracted by the magnet ...

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Interesting ... Very interesting.... I'd like to try that test myself on a small scale since I don't have access to a wind tunnel at the moment and yes we probably have tested it out already.

quote:

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I have had time to write it out in an email that I sent to myself as well as Krissa, since it kind of involves her and so that she could also post it if she really had to...

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You have my permission to post it Dan. - But you need to work on the end of it just a tiny bit.

And now for this part...

quote:

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Hey, I'll even let you drag it back to Mav's board so that Deb, Mav, Sceptic, LTC???, Duncan and the rest of the bunch can play with it. - I don't seem to be the topic of conversation over there for some reason and it's been bugging me. I mean you pick on Alpha, Chem11, etc. but haven't really said anything about me and Krissa except for maybe one or 2 comments and we kind of feel left out over here...

---

quote:

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Gawd, I wish Alpha could participate in this one. He does know more than me about some of the scientific stuff and Duncan don't play with us anymore and canex ain't Minnus.

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It's all true. (sobs in the corner.) No Alpha, who I just found out is part native like me and Dan... No Duncan... And I know that conex ain't Minnis but he seems to have some understanding of atmospheric sutff... but he can't stop calling himself conehead and think he caught whatever Bonehead had... And I've just realized that Cy has caught the dreaded Duncan disease.

posted 10-01-2002 07:03 PM            

one more time...

++++++++++++++++++++

krissa,

here's a good reason theta is not around...

And remember seeker, watch out for that blue screen. You've encountered it before by becoming arrogant and cocky. Of course, you tried to claim it was a malicious code, which maybe it was, but you'll never be able to prove it, and I can't remember. LOL.

theta has threatened an ms-dos attack before on this board, performing the act is punishable by the authorities...

there is ABSOLUTELY NO ROOM for hackers in my world krissa...and should not be in yours...

although I personally believe theta is full of crap, in his information and his threats...in his doing so shows a lack of moral character, immaturity and certainly these threats are something he would not say to my face...

btw, theta from what I understand windows xp has some fairly identifiable packet characteristics...

we are waiting

+++++++++++++++++++++++

so you have a connection through a router...little pricey 4 my habit...

posted 10-01-2002 07:34 PM            

Well anyway, enough on that subject.

OK where is everyone tonight? - No comments from Pacer, conex, or anyone besides you, me, G/M and jammer on this thread tonight.

So what do ya think about my idea for a Halloween costume anyway T/S?

posted 10-01-2002 08:55 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Yodabreath:
How come Krissa poked me with a stick and checked my pulse?

---

I think she was just checking to see if you were still with us and it looks like you are Yoda.

And judging by her post, it looks like she was practicing her chat-room skills. Interesting.

BTW Krissa, you can switch to aol mode now. According to my snert alert, one of your friends is in NAC 1 and you can go flame him.

P.S. you made a couple of minor mistakes in your post Krissa.

posted 10-01-2002 09:24 PM            

quote:

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Ok G/M, since you're here what do you think about what I've said so far? - Just curious.

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Krissa wrote:

quote:

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BTW G/M that avatar looks a little bit like my sister. If her skin is just a shade darker and her hair was brown...

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posted 10-01-2002 10:05 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ellobosolo:
After reading through about the illness, etc. linked to the trails, the thought occured to me...What if this is a half baked toxic waste disposal program.

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Not sure about that one ellobosolo. I'd have to do a little research on it, but right now, I'd have to say no. The disposal of toxic waste has become a significant problem, and one that needs to be taken care of pretty soon.

Since Krissa quoted me a bit, and since my train of thought has run out of track, I'll just quote her a bit.

quote:

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And I think Dan has a dancing hunk picture that can top our baby pictures.

---

quote:

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BTW boys, what do ya think about this for my Halloween costume?

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I could say something but your sister would kill me Krissa. So I choose to take the 5th on that one.

quote:

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BTW G/M that avatar looks a little bit like my sister. If her skin is just a shade darker and her hair was brown... Interesting... Wonder if Dan noticed that?

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Yeah, I noticed it and she did ask me what she should be for Halloween and so...

Well that's all I got for now.

BTW, since you got back to back posts Krissa, divide that long post between the two and then leapfrog T/S so you don't look sooooooooo out of place.

posted 10-01-2002 10:20 PM            

quote:

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Right on, dude! No complaints here. I'm too drunk to really comment further on anything.......(sometimes it sucks being the manager of a major nightclub)

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posted 10-01-2002 10:32 PM            

Well I appreciate your creative thoughts Dan…..Chemical delivery by rod? By Bug?…..Now there‘s something new. (I think you’ll find that rods were actually debunked effectively as being bugs photographed with a slow camera shutter speed though).

I too read that bugs-from-Mars stuff over at Unknown Country.com, Streiber‘s site.....but I'm not sure exactly where you were going with that (or whether you are implying bugs from Mars iz in chemtrails), so I’ll just stick to a couple thoughts here where at least I‘m more familiar with the argument. To narrow things down a bit, let me just raise a few logical questions with regard to your points, rather than play the role of Mr. Stale debunker, party pooper. I hope you will take my commentary in that context rather than the traditionally adversarial….(which might be a more refreshing approach). Sounds like you might miss the traditionally adversarial though, judging by your weepy blue face over the disappearance of Alpha…..but I’ll try to be good.

Ok, you saw a rise in sickness, and I'll take your word for that. You gave your line of reasoning as to how you see those sicknesses attributed to contrails (notice I didn‘t say chemtrails), but still I think we have some extreme gaps in that logical connection which needs to be addressed here.

For instance....you mentioned one argument that has been bandied about from the beginning of this sad chemtrail saga, and that is the concept of spraying a substance for the purposes of intentionally causing sickness from 15 to 30 thousand feet. I think it would be easy to demonstrate the fallacy of this idea if not solely by demonstration of the physics and nature of the atmosphere alone, then by purely logical reasoning.

Stated bluntly, spraying from altitude is just simply not the most efficient way to apply a biological or chemical agent to a given population. In fact, I would even go so far as to say it would probably be the most inefficient method both from a cost and physics standpoint. Can we agree on this point? I mean, you said yourself that a drop of some of the nasty stuff in an aquifer would do the job. Why spray 1000s of gallons at huge expense when you can cover the majority of the population in so many more efficient ways, with more accurate targeting capability at that, not to mention…. invisibly? (I don’t think you’ve addressed this aspect of my previous comments, by the way ie. Why are they trying to make the stuff so visible?).

West Nile for example could be (and probably was) delivered by nothing more sophisticated than birds as a vector, courtesy of our friendly communist neighbor to the south, Castro in Cuba (who has developed quite a significant cache of bio weapons in lieu of the cigar making industry…guess he needed something to do for fun and profit). Sadam also has West Nile, courtesy the generosity of the United States, so we may in fact be looking at an actual biological attack here. It gives us a glimpse into how it may actually be done. It doesn’t have to get more complicated than birds as a delivery system.

Small Pox or even weaponized anthrax delivered to the ventilation system of a large office building in a major city could affect 100s of thousands, even millions of people….and both methods would be infinitesimally cheaper, more efficient and covert than filling the skies with visible trails costing millions if not BILLIONs…and BILLIONS of dollars *doing Carl Sagan impression*. You could also accomplish infecting a target population by these simple, cheap and invisible methods, whereas by massive spraying from high altitude, you’d be lucky to hit the same state you were aiming at.

This is of course, an old argument, that I've always thought had long since been "debunked" and stamped void (even by the chemmie crowd) yet this is part of the insinuation you are making now. But it is never-the-less relevant because, as a nation, we are focusing on this subject currently to a high degree as the concern about biological terrorism becomes a part of the public consciousness.

We know that terrorists have examined this very problem, applying aerial agents and they have had several difficulties.

For one thing...if you were going to spray a biological agent for the purposes of infecting a population, then it would have to be very low level application or it's going to be ineffective. It would almost be at crop dusting levels. In fact, such an operation would likely appear very much like crop dusting, because applying a chemical to a crop has the same difficulties and similar physical problems as applying a chemical or biological agent to a human population. The only reasonable conclusion then is that the application would need to occur at extremely low altitudes to be effective, let alone from 30,000 or even 5000 feet. At those altitudes, the chemical or biological agent applied is going to disperse and dilute to such a point as to render it negligible.

In addition, the most important question we can ask is WHY? What would the motivation be. You imply the US government could be doing this to it’s own people, a concept that I’ve always found to be completely unsupportable by any stretch of creative thinking. Again…we’ve seen that the efficiency aspect doesn’t stand the test of reason or any logical scrutiny, but the motivational aspect is completely void and lacking as well.

What would they accomplish by making their own citizens sick, possibly even the families of the spray pilots and themselves? Power couldn’t be a motivation, because power is money, and it does the people in power no good if the economy collapses and people are sick at home, not making any money. Besides, people of “power” live in every city that you can name as being a target for so-called chemtrails.

If you’ll also notice….much of the so-called chemtrails occur over remote and unpopulated areas as well as over large bodies of water like oceans. Are we to assume then that this mysterious government entity is also spending BILLIONS of dollars trying to spray the fish and deer as well?

Preposterous when you really think about it….wouldn’t you agree? This being said, I think at this point we have to rule out the possibility that chemtrails are some kind of biological agent or chemical being sprayed upon unsuspecting US citizens by it’s own government. For the reasons mentioned, the whole concept just doesn’t stand up to even the most simple tests of logical scrutiny.

As for the HAARP theories, I think at this point, they demonstrate an amazing capacity for the imagination of the theorist, but I don’t think that anyone has of yet has brought forth the slightest amount of evidence that contrails could in anyway be HAARP related. It’s a nice theory…but again, the size and scope and cost and environmental catastrophe of a chemtrail operation, would make it a highly improbable and unlikely theory.

Odds are, HAARP is designed to operate with naturally occurring phenomenon such as the ionosphere and water molecules in the atmosphere. If spraying some aluminum compound in the atmosphere were necessary every time HAARP was used, then it would be an extremely inefficient tool for over the horizon radar, wouldn’t it? I mean we’d have to put spray planes over possibly hostile territory in order to get a radar bounce. Extremely time consuming……extremely visible and vulnerable….and ineffective from a cost or strategic standpoint. If HAARP were to have military and strategic advantage it would have to work without a time consuming, costly, and vulnerable “Chemtrail” component.

I think we could apply a similar line of reasoning to the weather mod theories as well, where HAARP and chemtrails are theorized to be operating synergistically, but this is getting too long as it is, and I don’t want to make the mistake of introducing too many subjects at once…..I think it’s better just to chew on a couple at a time…..Rule out the most probable and THEN work our way into the more outlandish.

posted 10-01-2002 10:32 PM            

dan and krissa seem to have the same "ora"...

better watch them dogs dan / krissa...

lol

posted 10-01-2002 11:53 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Yodabreath:
Did you just delete my post, Dan?

---

Wasn't me Yoda. I was off the board checking the news wires.

Since my brain ain't working due to my lack of sleep, I'll take a look at your material
in the morning and try to come back with an intelligent response.

quote:

---

I hope you will take my commentary in that context rather than the traditionally adversarial….(which might be a more refreshing approach).

---

Let's see now, Since I've been here, I have chosen not to be adversarial, which might bother a few people, but I long ago learned that an intelligent conversation is better than a heated argument. I'm sure that you would agree that it requires a certain level of discipline and a somewhat higher level of intelligence to carry on an intelligent conversation than it does to Flame someone. From my own experience, arguments that have a lot of chest pounding and verbal abuse have far less credibility than an intelligent conversation does.

I've been debunked and called names by supposedly professional scientifically minded people before and had actually gained far more credibility than they did all because they refused to engage in a level-headed conversation with me.

Well, I've got to check a couple of other threads, and then I'm gonna try to get a little more sleep than I've had in the past two nights, so everyone play nice or I will post that story that I was going to post a few nights ago. And if it's necessary, I will even post that "dancing-hunk" picture that Krissa mentioned.

posted 10-02-2002 12:43 AM            

I'm satisfied just doing simple stuff.