posted 10-09-2002 03:29 PM            

Given the rather rapid build-up of "pretty clouds" over the last two days - the OBVIOUS result of the trailing that's been going on here - I don't doubt for a second that the now-completely obliterated sky is probably going to stay that way until at least this Saturday. It's HARDLY the first time we have directly witnessed this very graphic progression.

The junked-up sky over south-central Maine, in the photo submitted by "eyesopen" this morning under "Trails Reports", was commented on by "Canex", who said, "Nice looking cirrus clouds."

I found this rather annoying, too. It's one of those days if you know what I mean.

I hereby submit that what the __sleazebag debunkers__ are REALLY about is an agenda to deliberately create as much confusion as possible where the issue of CONTRAILS and their effects is concerned.

I'm going to leave it at that for the time being and let people come to their own conclusions after taking a few minutes to read through the material below. I would be interested in hearing what people think.

And, by the way, I HIGHLY DOUBT that "Canex" is Dr. Patrick Minnis, as the debunker crowd would have the rest of us believe.

Thank you.

-------------------------=>

National Aeronautics and Space Administration
Langley Research Center
Hampton, Virginia 23681-2199

For Release May 13, 2002

RELEASE NO. 02-035

NASA Scientists Use Empty Skies to Study Climate Change
http://www.larc.nasa.gov/news_and_events/inside_pages/2002/02-035.html

When the tragic events of September 2001 temporarily halted U.S. commercial air traffic, it created an opportunity to study the relationship between aviation and clouds.

From satellite observations taken during the air traffic shutdown, NASA scientists gained insight into the atmospheric conditions that govern the formation of contrails -- clouds caused by aircraft emissions.

"Because air traffic is expected to grow over the next 50 years, contrail coverage will also increase and may significantly impact the Earth's radiation budget by 2050," said Patrick Minnis, a senior research scientist at NASA's Langley Research Center in Hampton, Va.

The Earth's radiation budget -- the balance between the planet's incoming sunlight and outgoing heat energy -- drives climate change. Contrails can spread into extensive high, thin cirrus clouds that tend to warm the Earth because they reflect less sunlight back to space than the amount of heat they trap.

Tracking the formation of contrails is key to determining their contribution to cirrus clouds and their effect on the energy balance. But contrails typically form in large numbers from overlapping commercial flights, making it difficult for scientists to follow their development.

The air traffic shutdown gave Minnis and his team the chance to track individual, persistent contrails from military aircraft on September 12..... [more]

News In Science
9 August 2002
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/enviro/EnviroRepublish_643595.htm

The Contrail Effect

US researchers have calculated that the water vapour exhaust trails, or contrails, left by cruising jet planes have a small effect on daily temperatures.

Dr Andrew Carleton at Pennsylvania State University and colleagues measured the effect of contrails during the three-day grounding of commercial aircraft after September 11 last year, when the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon occurred.

Though the circumstances were tragic, the clear skies granted a unique opportunity to tease out the impact of contrails. Previously it was virtually impossible to measure their effect on climate because air traffic, especially over regions like Europe and North America, never stopped.

The researchers compared the average daily highest and lowest temperatures over North America for this period with records for the same interval between 1971 and 2000. Their results appear in this week's Nature..... [more]

Nature
8 August 2002
http://www.nature.com/nsu/020805/020805-7.html

Vapour trails' effects confirmed

Clouds formed by the water vapour in the exhaust from jet planes have a small but significant effect on daily temperatures, a new study confirms.

The grounding of commercial flights for three days after last September's terrorist attacks in the United States gave David Travis at the University of Wisconsin-Whitewater and colleagues a chance they never thought they'd have: to study the true impact that contrails from jet engines have on our climate1.

"It was a tarnished golden opportunity," recalls Patrick Minnis, an atmospheric scientist at NASA'a Langley Research Center in Hampton, Virginia. Despite a wealth of experiments, it had been virtually impossible to gauge the effect of contrails because air traffic, particularly over regions such as Europe and North America, never stopped. Until 11 September 2001, that is.

Contrails left high in the atmosphere spread out into cirrus-like clouds under the right atmospheric conditions. Natural cirrus clouds - thin layers of wispy water vapour that often resemble fish scales - trap heat being reflected from the ground and, to a lesser extent, reflect some of the Sun's rays..... [more]

Bradenton.com
11 August 2002
http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/news/nation/3842899.htm

Trails above fueling weather changes below, researchers say

(KRT) - Fluffy rows of cirrus clouds created by the increasing number of jet contrails can sometimes fill half the sky and may significantly affect ground temperatures, according to a report in Thursday's issue of the British science journal Nature.

Using a unique opportunity to study the effect of contrails on temperature after all commercial planes were grounded for three days after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, a team of researchers found that clouds spawned by jets lower peak daytime temperatures and raise the lowest nighttime readings.

Such temperature changes could have a profound impact, affecting growing patterns of some major crops and increasing the likelihood of larger insect populations, according to the researchers.

It may also be the clearest indication that human activity can alter the climate.

"We know for a fact that because of the contrails there are less clear days in the U.S. than there have ever been," said David Travis, a University of Wisconsin climatologist who headed the study. "We believe that human activity has much greater potential to change regional climate than it does to change global climate."..... [more]

Excerpted researchers' commentary:

*** From "NASA Scientists Use Empty Skies to Study Climate Change":

DR. PATRICK MINNIS: "Because air traffic is expected to grow over the next 50 years, contrail coverage will also increase and may significantly impact the Earth's radiation budget by 2050,".....

DR. PATRICK MINNIS: "Six aircraft were responsible for the formation of cirrus clouds that covered more than 20,000 square kilometers within an area between Virginia and central Pennsylvania,".....

Very revealing comment by DR. PATRICK MINNIS: "If scientists determine that contrails are negatively impacting climate change, we could minimize their formation by predicting where they will occur and then suggesting alternate flight altitudes accordingly, when feasible,".....

*** From "The Contrail Effect":

DR. ANDREW CARLETON: "Most researchers, however, believe that contrails will make global warming worse because they tend to spread out and become thin over time. It is these persisting contrails that have a climatic impact; not the transient ones that form and disappear within a few minutes.".....

*** From "Vapour trails' effects confirmed":

DR. ANDREW CARLETON: "It's obviously a significant effect,".....

DR. ANDREW CARLETON: "But locally, contrails are equally as significant as greenhouse gases,".....

DR. PATRICK MINNIS: "The discovery is important, especially when you consider that air traffic is expected to increase at about five per cent a year".....

*** From "Trails above fueling weather changes below, researchers say":

DR. DAVID TRAVIS: "We know for a fact that because of the contrails there are less clear days in the U.S. than there ever have been. We believe that human activity has much greater potential to change regional climate than it does to change global climate.".....

DR. DAVID TRAVIS: "During the three-day period when there were no commercial flights and only a few contrails from military planes, we got this sudden increase in the [diurnal] temperature range due to the fact that we suddenly had clearer skies across the country,".....

DR. PATRICK MINNIS: "This result, if it is corroborated by additional studies, represents the first large-scale evidence of the effect of contrails on climate,".....

DR. PATRICK MINNIS: "Six to eight contrails can grow to form a cloud cover the size of Massachusetts. These clouds now make up 4 to 6 percent of the cloud cover on any given day, a huge increase from the 1 to 2 percent previously estimated.".....

DR. DAVID TRAVIS: "Our winters have not been as dramatically cold in recent years as they have been historically. Some of what has been attributed to global warming may be due to contrails that throw down a blanket of clouds to warm the nights."

DR. DAVID TRAVIS: "Reducing the extremes of day and night temperatures could have a subtle impact on ecosystems. It may, for instance, increase insect populations that thrive better in moderate temperatures."

Final commentary by Dr. Travis:

Travis said he has mixed feelings about contrails. On the one hand they have been a prime focus of his research interest for the last 10 years. On the other hand they almost spoiled a recent vacation in the Pacific Northwest.

posted 10-09-2002 06:20 PM            

quote:

---

"There were so many contrails in the sky we weren't having any nice days," he said. "The contrails were making the days kind of gloomy and overcast. There aren't as many sunny days as we had when we were kids.

---

I don't know (nor do I neccesarily care) whether Dr. Minnis posts as 'Canex' or not. I have been quietly watching Dr. Travis for the last few months and he seems noticeably more perceptive than Minnis, and a bit more willing to call a spade a spade (I'm referring to his assertion that contrail formation in the deep south is a rarity during the summer months, a fact that hasn't kept us from being blanketed an average of 5-6 days out of the week).

As for the increasingly sleazy tactics of so-called debunkers, it's to the point where absolutely nothing surprises me anymore. Once that happens, the species loses it's entertainment value... for me at least.

It's funny, Greg, I was just reading a thread on another forum and the poster felt it neccesary to remind me that Deborah was, in their opinion, "quite a remarkable person'.

When, pray tell, was the last time you got such glowing reviews? The only negativity you're bound to encounter on these boards is purely karmic or of your own making, my brother.

Everyone else seems to be cool; sounds to me like you need a stiff one (a drink, that is).

Another brief example; I'm still getting, on average, an email every other day from a complete stranger either thanking me or congratulating me on the website. It's not like we're giving away free mp3's, either. My experience has been that people sincerely concerned about this issue are remarkably positive and supportive.

posted 10-09-2002 07:20 PM            

he does need a stiff one...

posted 10-10-2002 12:42 AM            

.....I have been quietly watching Dr. Travis for the last few months and he seems noticeably more perceptive than Minnis, and a bit more willing to call a spade a spade.....

I'd go with "more willing to call a spade a spade."

DeeHumanEyes wrote:

.....but I know what I am seeing with my own eyes.....

We're all seeing the same thing you are.

Welcome to the board.

posted 10-10-2002 12:48 AM            

considering what I know about your own personal hypocrisy, your personal life, your job, and how you personally profit from the misfortune of others and don't say shit about it...you can F/O...of course if anyone knows about that little blue pill it's you babe !

just consider yourself very fortunate that I am a man of principle....

help me here dave :

As for the increasingly sleazy tactics of so-called debunkers, it's to the point where absolutely nothing surprises me anymore. Once that happens, the species loses it's entertainment value... for me at least.

you cannot get more sleazy or uninformed than this latest julian penrod (cough) article...

all that crap has been hash out over and over time and time again...only the new and extremely *thick* headed seem to take any serious note of it...jeff rense will post anything, but hard data, btw did he ever post thermit's chemtrail research report ?

you were conspicuously absent to comment on chemtrails main promoter willy thomas being exposed for the mis-dis information agent and profiteer that he is...

deborah made a comment about "some figuring this out already", and I said the only thing worse than a liar is someone who knows it and says nothing about it...

truth be told dave...your beloved "political issue" is so chock full of liars hypocrites and scammers that anyone in the media who yawl continually seek can expose whatever you put forth as evidence,they can immediately conclude as lies, without even sourcing data...

as far as the popularity contest I'm glad for you, maybe you should put up a page on your site displaying these letters of gratitude...could not be more than a few kbs...can't wait to see it I know you'll put one up with e-mails proving this won't choo...

I believe things happen for reasons and people are where they are for the same...you are here for yours and me for mine..why or what they really are I don't know but in the end...a clear conscience...and knowing I pursued the truth...will do me just fine...

posted 10-10-2002 02:05 AM            

.....deborah made a comment about "some figuring this out already", and I said the only thing worse than a liar is someone who knows it and says nothing about it.....

I was specifically referring to your incessant braying about William Thomas and his alleged profit-making activities vis a vis the chemtrail issue. I believe my exact response to you was:

"You would be surprised how many people have already figured this out."

For the record, then.

posted 10-10-2002 02:19 AM            

btw...ed dames said the other nite that chemtrails are a military/cull thing...but he naturally couldn't comment further...much less prove it...

and so it goes...

posted 10-10-2002 09:27 AM            

In my opinion, these thinly veiled personal threats have clearly crossed the line of acceptable behavior.

This board was founded to discuss peoples' concerns about an intentional alteration of our atmosphere from a government sanctioned program of aerial spraying. While there is a broad range of opinions as to the how and why of this operation, it is clear that there are specific individuals who frequent this board that are simply intent on disrupting meaningful discussion of these matters.

When that disruption proceeds to jack boot thuggery, the moderators/administrators need to decide whether further participation of the offending parties should be tolerated.

In this case it's a simple matter. If the author of this threat is allowed to continue to participate on this forum, I will depart permanently.

You will have to decide whose contributions are more relevant to the stated purpose of this forum.

posted 10-10-2002 10:08 AM            

.....I hereby submit that what the __sleazebag debunkers__ are REALLY about is an agenda to deliberately create as much confusion as possible where the issue of CONTRAILS and their effects is concerned.....

Please refer to the first post in this thread.

posted 10-10-2002 09:16 PM            

.....I don't see one shred of evidence in your articles that proves that chemtrails exist.....

The above-posted articles have nothing to do with chemtrails specifically. As is patently clear. And as you well know.

.....You people need to study because the weather is being screwed up by you people and your chembusters.....

What does this have to do with the focus of this thread? And who, exactly, are "you people"?

.....These devices have been strategically placed in places like Seattle and Four Corners (in large numbers), places that are important conduits for seasonal weather patterns effecting the entire western region of the United States. You should be thankful you can get cloud cover and humidity in your area for days on end. Clouds are no serious threat to weather compared with human ignorance.....

What kind of *clouds* are you referring to here? Naturally-occurring clouds? Or the bizarre upper-level abortions facilitated, in increasingly large part, by the crap coming out the rear-ends of aircraft?

.....You people have been systematically misled and will be reeped out of existance soon enough when everyone's right to free speech is gone and conservative socialism rules the land permanently. You people are creating much trouble over nothing and crying wolf makes people def to real issues.....

My, that's quite a pronouncement. I suppose you know, in detail, what, exactly, is in the minds of each and every person posting on this board, what they've observed, studied and read, and for how many years, and what each one of them thinks in regard to the multi-faceted situation-at-hand. You must be a remarkable person, indeed, to have such comprehensive insight.

.....There is no evidence of a chemical spraying program; the cloud formations you see are natural given the situation and the technology.....

There is nothing NATURAL about a great deal of what is being continually observed overhead over the last 4-5 years by a great many people. Our skies are an increasingly chaotic MESS relative to what we have known them to be prior to around 1997 or so.

.....And not all high altitude cloud formations are caused by jets; I only see less than ten percent of high altitude cloud formations comming from jets and that is when there are already high altitude cloud formations happening in the area, or at least trying to happen for meteorological reasons.....

I will grant you that absolutely. Of course *not all* upper-altitude cloud formations are created/facilitated by aircraft emissions. But a steadily-increasing percentage of them are, if you've been observing closely for the last 4-5 years.

.....Study into these issues carefully people and don't buy into this lazy X-Files genre nonsense too easily. Study the situation and you will see that jets only cause lasting contrails when metoerological conditions warrant it.....

Very slick. ....."only when meteorological conditions warrant it"..... Yeah. And it is the observation of a great many people that these "suitable meteorological conditions" seem to be occurring with ever-increasing frequency over larger and larger swaths of the atmosphere. Either that, or whatever is in the jet fuel is so significantly different that its interaction with the atmosphere is now graphically, persistently visible. OR, we actually DO have an increasingly serious problem with aircraft emissions HOWEVER they are classified. OR, All Of The Above, as they say.

....."Pretty clouds" are much preferable over cities compared with no clouds or chaotic clouds; check into real orgone biophysics and see the harmful immitations of orgone biophysics for what they are.....

Speaking only for myself, I am aware of the negative ramifications of irresponsible application of orgone biophysics. And I'm sorry, but what you refer to as "pretty clouds" are not my idea of anything "pretty", let alone normal. Those "pretty clouds" you so admire have progressively altered the climate in my region over the last four years, and over the last year especially. I'm afraid I can't share your enthusiasm for them under the circumstances.

.....Most cities inhibit cloud formation because they charge the atmosphere with oranur and if the clouds stick around, it is probably pretty nice out and weather could potentially form up overhead. I am tired of cities being concrete deserts anyway.....

Well, so am I. And so are a lot of people. There is a lot of energy being focused on this issue and how to improve city-planning endeavors so that at least some of the current negative environmental impacts of dense, urban reality can be avoided or mitigated in the future.

.....Contrails are not an issue.....

I disagree. Contrails ARE, in fact, an increasingly serious issue, among other serious and directly-related issues under discussion here.

.....and the people who run this site are masochists working for someone who is out to milead and disinform for political reasons (look into David Icke and see what he did with Reptilianism as an example - paranoid, vampirically symbolic nonsense like a horror movie that brings underlying paranoia to surface awareness for succeptible people).....

I'm not even going to address that comment. It's a waste of my time.

.....If those chembusters don't come down much of the west could become a desert for a long time because the Chinese DOR influence is bad enough without paranoid folk making things worse.....

posted 10-10-2002 09:35 PM            

quote:

---

You people have been systematically misled and will be reeped out of existance soon enough when everyone's right to free speech is gone and conservative socialism rules the land permanently

---

I'm not sure what 'reeped' means, but I am almost certain I don't like it. You on the other hand, Mr. Sol, could very well turn out to be an acquired taste..

quote:

---

You people are creating much trouble over nothing and crying wolf makes people def to real issues.

---

'You people' again, eh? It would seem you're attempting to compensate for your limited communication skills with exagerated generalizations. And you're apparently a fan of bad 80's hair metal, so that's two strikes...

quote:

---

I only see less than ten percent of high altitude cloud formations comming from jets and that is when there are already high altitude cloud formations happening in the area

---

If a I had a dollar for every photograph of CT's occuring in otherwise completely clear skies posted on the net, there'd be a CB on every block. Not because I'm convinced they're completely effective; simply because I've never seen anyone go so completley apeshit over people putting tubes and crystals in their backyards... it amuses me.

quote:

---

Study the situation and you will see that jets only cause lasting contrails when metoerological conditions warrant it.

---

Yes, study the situation. Once you learn how to read a skew-t plot you will quickly discover how deep Kephra's confusion dwells...

quote:

---

If those chembusters don't come down much of the west could become a desert for a long time because the Chinese DOR influence is bad enough without paranoid folk making things worse

---

Right. Chinese DOR. Paranoid folks making things worse (although I'm not sure what could be 'worse' than the gutting of the constituional right to free-speech that you appear to be salivating over).

And people bitch about William Thomas?

posted 10-11-2002 02:08 PM            

I am offended once again by theseeker.

For this 'person' (?) to tell one of the others to F/O is completely unacceptable.

With behavior like this I'm ashamed to be a member and advocate of this site.

posted 10-11-2002 05:50 PM            

just the other day you were thanking me and now I offend you...sniff sniff..my memory comes in handy...but I told you that already...eh...

WOW! what an exhausting thread!
Thanks to TS who mentioned that the hum was in the 20-60 hertz range. And no-thanks to AT who first claimed there is no such thing as 20 hertz and then concludes to say that yes there is in relation to car audio but not when one looks at ELF

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000218.html

btw, throat I know exactly who I'm dealing with, and so does about all the debunking folks out there, as I said only principle keeps me from exposing you for what you really are...

don't threaten me...

posted 10-11-2002 06:47 PM            

.....don't threaten me.....

Where on this thread have you been threatened, Greg?

theseeker wrote:

.....btw, throat I know exactly who I'm dealing with, and so does all the debunking folks out there, as I said only principle keeps me from exposing you for what you really are.....

If this statement doesn't constitute an actual THREAT, I don't know what does.

ADMINISTRATORS:

posted 10-11-2002 07:42 PM            

Kephra Sol: No there isn't, you're paranoid and delusional.

posted 10-11-2002 08:31 PM            

knowing what you do boston...about throat and his occupational *proclivities*....I'd say the above is a threat....what say u ?

hopefully nothing...and I can get along with more important matters...

btw, what's the deal with the personal names here ? I have NEVER conversed with you by mail, we never served together in any capacity...your getting a little too personal for someone who does nothing but whine about me...

that's my wife's job K ?

posted 10-11-2002 08:53 PM            

I'll focus just on dialog between these two...

quote:

---

Perhaps you've inadvertently stumbled on squeaker's real problem Chem11...
he does need a stiff one...

...and I don't mean a drink.

---

SoreThroat starts this particular battle by implying that theseeker is homosexual and in need of sex. This particular comment is a bit ugly in my opinion as it uses a gay orientation as an insult, which is insulting to gay people in general.

theseeker responds...

quote:

---

throat,
considering what I know about your own personal hypocrisy, your personal life, your job, and how you personally profit from the misfortune of others and don't say shit about it...you can F/O...of course if anyone knows about that little blue pill it's you babe !

just consider yourself very fortunate that I am a man of principle....

---

Bottom-line: would everybody just try to back off the insults and the threats, and act like adults.

posted 10-11-2002 09:29 PM            

.....Bottom-line: would everybody just try to back off the insults and the threats, and act like adults.....

Thank you.

Once again, to get things back on track here:

.....I hereby submit that what the __sleazebag debunkers__ are REALLY about is an agenda to deliberately create as much confusion as possible where the issue of CONTRAILS and their effects is concerned.....

Please refer to the first post in this thread.

posted 10-11-2002 09:33 PM            

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps you've inadvertently stumbled on squeaker's real problem Chem11...
he does need a stiff one...
...and I don't mean a drink.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thermit, the "moderator" of this board states:

"SoreThroat starts this particular battle by implying that theseeker is homosexual and in need of sex. This particular comment is a bit ugly in my opinion as it uses a gay orientation as an insult, which is insulting to gay people in general."
-------------------------------------------

There is nothing in my statement that implies ANYTHING regarding homosexuality.

This is a preposterous accusation...a total distortion and fabrication.

You know nothing about my position on gay rights.

The insult is yours to me.

I know not what course others may take, but my association with this particular forum has ended.

posted 10-11-2002 09:37 PM            

-------".....You people have been systematically misled and will be reeped out of existance soon enough when everyone's right to free speech is gone and conservative socialism rules the land permanently. You people are creating much trouble over nothing and crying wolf makes people def to real issues....."----

Making people deaf to REAL issues? Ex-squeeze me?

Where have you been?

That's a good one, smoke another one.

If this country was taken over by a form of---"conservative socialism", BOATS and BOATS of people would be OUTTA HERE!!! Myself included. Nobody wants to live back in 18th century prim and proper. Well....Bush mabey.