posted 12-06-2002 09:13 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mech:
Show you? Gladly.....

+++++Yes there are some very strange things happening in the skies above us but what proof is there that these are sinister, bar your paranoia ?+++

Sounds pretty self righteous to me calling us "paranoid."

Can't even begin to count the amount of times people here have been called that.

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If its something you've come to expect then rolling with the punches should come with this teritory.

The moment you enter the world of the unexplained be it do mock or believe, you have to thicken your skin because both sides will come under fire - thats the world of debate my friend.

I personally think there is alot of attributed paranoia here, but thats got nothing to with my profession and possibly the weakest example - personally I would have used most of my opening statement (in retrospect my first post to this forum could have been my words better chosen on my part)

Mech, its not a personal attack on the believers but surely a non believer (who is not a debunker - as Ive offered no other explaination, and want to know as much as you all what it is) is or should be a welcome addition to such a group ?

posted 12-06-2002 09:30 AM            

Digest what I say, yes I think some of this forum have taken the path of the paranoid extremest. Its unfortunate that some of the posts here almost represent the ramblings of mad man, which doesnt help your general cause (neither comment directed a you), but then you have several people who have obvious avionics experience and that coupled with some sound scientific knowledge makes for very sound & interesting reading.

I state my opinions because I want people to prove me wrong, I want them to able to say "I told you so" and show me that i was wrong - if you can achieve that by once and for all having some concrete proof that these trails do indeed a chemical or chemicals which are meant for some "higher/sinister" purpose then I would gladly and openly admit Iam wrong and apologize to each and every person.

posted 12-06-2002 09:48 AM            

Ahhh...if you go back a page...CLEARLY you state that we're all paranoid and are going to soon be seeking a head doctor.

++++Digest what I say, yes I think some of this forum have taken the path of the paranoid extremest. +++

Ever consider WHY people who fit the mold of "activist", especially in America have the superficial appearance of being "paranoid"(sic)?

++++Its unfortunate that some of the posts here almost represent the ramblings of mad man, which doesnt help your general cause (neither comment directed a you),++++

Talking smack.

+++but then you have several people who have obvious avionics experience and that coupled with some sound scientific knowledge makes for very sound & interesting reading.+++

Oh really? Well I am an FAA Certified A&P and can tell you a thing or 2 about aircraft...plus 4 years Navy Military aircraft experience. Does that qualify for a "very sound & interesting reading...." Does that make the grade?

++++I state my opinions because I want people to prove me wrong, I want them to able to say "I told you so" and show me that i was wrong - if you can achieve that by once and for all having some concrete proof that these trails do indeed a chemical or chemicals which are meant for some "higher/sinister" purpose then I would gladly and openly admit Iam wrong and apologize to each and every person.+++

People here have given you their information...links,articles etc.If it's not good enough for you...stop blaming them and do your own damn research.

Thermit has archived a Mt.St. Helens amount of posts/links/data over the years here. Start reading and make your own determination.

+++++Smack talk is myself calling you all idiots and saying you are all mad. I dont think that but justifying your trolling by playground tactics ie. "he started it" is quite embarrassing for this forum.++++

Uhhh....read back a page... you just called yourself a liar.

posted 12-06-2002 10:13 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mech:
++++Ahhh...if you go back a page...CLEARLY you state that we're all paranoid and are going to soon be seeking a head doctor.++++

Yes I did. Got me there. As I said though my initial post could have been worded much better. But I'm not one to make excuses so I hold my hand up to that. I still think there are some people here who verge on some dillusional self-indulged world - but you must know that this also comes with this kind of territory.

++++Ever consider WHY people who fit the mold of "activist", especially in America have the superficial appearance of being "paranoid"(sic)?++++

Hmm, not sure where you going with this so I cant comment. superficially speaking I would say all activism is paranoid in parts. Thats the nature of the beast. Without it, people cannot make themselves aware of what they are trying to do within a given cause.

++Talking smack.++++

Nope, stating a fact - you try to tell me that EVERYONE's who has posted here comes across sound in mind then you are either a naturally better natured person (though by persuing me I cant see that) or you choose to ignore that part or those people. All of the "unknown" subjects attract the nutcases, it doesnt help the real people who are trying to prove the real subject. That is definately the nature of the beast and if you deny this then you belong in a cave with your opinions. Not meant to be harsh but come on....

++++Oh really? Well I am an FAA Certified A&P and can tell you a thing or 2 about aircraft...plus 4 years Navy Military aircraft experience. Does that qualify for a "very sound & interesting reading...." Does that make the grade?++++

I do not care for your background, I certainly do not boast mine - being in the army makes you more of a "company man" than me, infact its mildly ironic & amusing. Though you have defend your country and I do respect you for that.

+++++People here have given you their information...links,articles etc.If it's not good enough for you...stop blaming them and do your own damn research.
Thermit has archived a Mt.St. Helens amount of posts/links/data over the years here. Start reading and make your own determination.++++

I have and Iam, but the forum is for discussing our ideas and opinions, mine is different to yours, you make it out to be much less valid. Im relatively new to this subject but find myself able to form very quick skeptical opinions - I keep myself thatway because I like to. Doesnt make me the enemy nor a de-bunker.

++Uhhh....read back a page... you just called yourself a liar. ++++

No I said I was wrong. I can freely admit when Iam.

++Just a lot of clever words and sentance structure...no substance.++ As are yours, but you seem to battle with them instead.

Mech, I dont want nor need to befriend you or have you "in my corner", nor do I care if you understand what I want to gain from this but remember, you cannot change whats in my head and I cannot change whats in yours.

Enough of the back & forth quoting now please, this is wasting our time and is futile.

[Edited 2 times, lastly by Mech on 12-06-2002]

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posted 12-06-2002 10:26 AM            

That's NAVY...not Army....

Constitutional law is pretty important to me...I foolishly thought I was defending it.
Apparently our elected leaders don't uphold it.

"I certainly do not boast mine" (background)...

Baloney...YOU were the one stating on page one...I am a scientist.....we do this...etc.

Being in the Navy (which I no longer am)...makes ME more of a "company man" than YOU?

Whatever.

Mommy and daddy didn't butter and squirt me through college with their savings....I did so by earning it the hard way. If you can't respect that then the h--l with you.

Glad you find it "amusing".

posted 12-06-2002 10:47 AM            

If you did understand contrail formation and persistence, we would not be having this discussion, unless you refuse to accept your own understanding. Perhaps, if you read the paragraphs above that contrail forecast picture, you would have some idea why you don't get matches all of the time, especially after April 18. The last paragraph which I have painfully extracted for you tells you what to do to get a more accurate estimate of contrail formation. But like any weather prediction, it ain't perfect because all of the atmosphere is not measured. As I challenged the participants on this board in the past, I would more likely believe in something sinister, if you find persistent contrails, I mean chemtrails, forming in the dark areas of the water vapor imagery. Those are the areas where the atmosphere is dry at high altitudes and contrails won't persist.

The paragraph:
The relative humidity data from the RUC 40km model are suspect since 18 April, 2002. Therefore, all contrail forecasts since April 18, 2002 are suspect.To obtain a better estimate of potential contrail formation, examine the 'Individual level (mb)' results. Select a pressure value between 200 and 250 mb for the best estimate. Relative humidity values above 80% are good indicators of contrails in the new RUC data. You can use any pressure level , but the large values may be too warm for contrail formation.

"No, they are injecting hygroscopic aerosols in an effort to engineer and/or weaponize the atmosphere. Neatly avoiding all the documentation of this capability is hardly very scientific of you, Canex."

Been there, done that in previous posts.

"I've yet too see a single photograph of aerosol trails blanketing China. Perhaps you could provide such a photograph (or some sort of documentation of the complete abscensce of jet aircraft in that country)."

Perhaps, you could show me a hi-res satellite image of China?

"Oh yeah... I'm having the time of my life. Too bad I wasn't born a Jew in National Socialist germany, that would have been a real
'gas'."

Cute. The Jews knew they were the targets. Although they did not know the extent of suffering in store for them, they knew they were not wanted. While that does not make it any better, the point is that this whole chemtrail business is entirely made up. The posters on this board have to
1) make up the victims and cannot really agree who they are
2) make up the animus (and why whatever is being done is being done)
3) make up the action (the lists of possible things occurring are endless)
The Jews did not have to make up anything. Hitler told them they were the enemy and the focus of his animus. They had a reason to be paranoid. Contrails are not a reason to be paranoid.

"You don't seem to be terribly interested in actually contributing to any substantive discussions latley, Canex."

Repetition is tiresome. Ruiud appears to be someone with a little sense and probably would realized, if he did not already, that chemtrails are nonsense. I thought a little more info on the subject would help. Note how the info was directed to Ruiud.

"You've certainly had your chance:
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001563.html"

Claiming and showing any proof of cause and effect are two extremely different things. If he were to actually demonstrate such a connection, his paper would be touted all over the scientific community.

"Hit-and-run ranting and trolling doesn't do much to enhance NASA (and other 'gummint' agencies) rock-bottom public trust, I'm afraid. For example:
quote:
the trails will be in the sky as long as the conditions are right and jet engines are making water vapor."
Hardly as hopeless a situation as this self-proclaimed expert would have you believe...
http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=218962"

posted 12-06-2002 11:01 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mech:
++++That's NAVY...not Army....++

My mistake.

+++Baloney...YOU were the one stating on page one...I am a scientist.....we do this...etc.+++

I mention nothing of what my research is about, I mention that Iam scientist, but then again so is anyone who looks at this with or through scientific minds - its a generic term, unlike a doctor, surgeon or cab driver. My stating that I'm a scientist allows me to let people know where they stand with me, that Im not just some net troll who is out for a fight in a forum. But the fact that I do work in a very related industry is what drove me here in the first place.

-----------
++Being in the Navy (which I no longer am)...makes ME more of a "company man" than YOU?

Whatever.++

Yes it does. You have trained to defend your country and its people, you are sworn to uphold the "freedom" of its land and everything within it. The military control nearly everything within most countries. You do what you are told because you are conditioned to do so, there is nothing wrong with that & you may not be a "company man" now, but at one time you most certainly were. -------------

++Mommy and daddy didn't butter and squirt me through college with their savings....I did so by earning it the hard way. If you can't respect that then the h--l with you.++

What do you know of me to assume to much ? Because I work in a lab it makes me a target for the maytrs ? How do I not respect that ? You are over the top, over sensitive and rude.

I come from India, have you ever been to india ? What I have earned, whilst I was learning is 1 quarter of what a western man would earn for the same skills I have. I call it slave labour, but at least I have clothes on my back, food on my table and have no cause to complain. You worked hard ? most people work hard - I have not had money in anytime of my life, and your pathetic attempt to undermine myself and my opinions are the funniest thing Ive seen.

Your a troll, a self obessed and pitying troll who cannot accept other people will have opinions or could be different.

Its of no consquence though because this wil go over your head, you will insult me again because thats all you know how to do - its a shame because a man with your determination is wasted fueling so much bitterness.

Glad you find it "amusing".

[Edited 3 times, lastly by Mech on 12-06-2002]

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posted 12-06-2002 11:20 AM            

quote:

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I am a layed off aircraft mechanic....try to sue me and see what happens to YOU.

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you seem to like quoting me so much and I found this. Very agressgive but at least I can now see where your bitterness is from. Im sorry you were layed off. where I come from this happens in every job and economic climate isnt always the reason, usually they do not respect us or the jobs we do.

posted 12-06-2002 11:21 AM            

So do I....

====You are over the top, over sensitive and rude.=====

I try...

=====I come from India, have you ever been to india ? =========

No...but I have been in worse places than India.

====Your a troll, a self obessed and pitying troll who cannot accept other people will have opinions or could be different.====

Again...I try...

NOTHING wrong with having your own opinion or being different..

===Its of no consquence though because this wil go over your head, you will insult me again because thats all you know how to do - its a shame because a man with your determination is wasted fueling so much bitterness.===

You're wrong...I DO care and to be fair..you could say that I am bitter, but not about money.That's at the bottom of my list.

I hate to keep the friction going but you call me rude, troll, self-obsessed,pitying,
oversensitive....what else?

Like I said...sticks and stones.

posted 12-06-2002 11:27 AM            

The way I see it is like this....

Every time a BUSH gets in the White House....a LOT of people DIE and the economy goes to crap.

There are things always beyond our control..

Thus is the way of the universe.

===Anyway, I understand you better now & do not want to fight with a man who is angry in his life, for that is a battle I can not make any impact on, let alone win.====

Why do you want to "win a battle"?

Most people here have a very viceral appreciation for what they observe around them. The chemtrail issue is not going to go away until it is 100% proven to be untrue.

Judging by what our own government has done over the past 200+ years to it's own people...it's not all that hard to figure out all is not well.

posted 12-06-2002 05:22 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Canex:
Perhaps, you could show me a hi-res satellite image of China?

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Gladly!
http://www.kicksnightclub.com/misc/china.jpg

(CAUTION: 3.2Mb)

posted 12-06-2002 05:25 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ruiud:
Anyway, I understand you better now & do not want to fight with a man who is angry in his life, for that is a battle I can not make any impact on, let alone win.

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posted 12-06-2002 07:21 PM            

Hard to believe that a NASA contrail expert would find legitmate inquiry and fact-finding 'tiresome' (and providing an endless supply of deprecating remarks and intellectually dishonest arguements somehow stimulating).

quote:

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I do not speak for NASA or any other gummint agency.

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Apparently I have been laboring under a mistaken impression... (that you were one Dr. Minnis, employed by NASA). In most professional positions, an employee is expected to conduct themselves in a manner befitting a representive of their employer (at times even being required to sign non-disclosure agreements to protect their employer's interests, whether they are 'on the clock' or not).

posted 12-06-2002 09:46 PM            

Apology accepted. I was not aware that NASA had an ambassador named canex who is the infamous Dr. Minnis. I can read and learn about contrails as well as the next person. Even if I worked for NASA, the NSA, the CIA, or the DoD, I still have the right to speak as a private citizen about any topic using information in the public domain. Even so, nothing I mentioned should be an embarassment to any of those agencies.

"Hard to believe that a NASA contrail expert would find legitmate inquiry and fact-finding 'tiresome' (and providing an endless supply of deprecating remarks and intellectually dishonest arguements somehow stimulating)."

Identity crisis aside, I do not find legitimate inquiry and fact-finding tiresome. I find repetition boring. Since I have not changed my argument substantially over the past yea's on this forum, I find repeating myself tiresome and reading about unsubstantiated and unlikely theories to explain explainable phenomena a real drag. Hence, the only occasional posting. An endless supply of deprecating remarks? Paranoid, a deprecating remark? How else would one describe those who continue to insist that someone is out get them, yet they are never gotten? No, it is not deprecating. It is the word that fits. But, hey, it's my opinion. Maybe, "they" are out to get us.
Got an example of an intellectually dishonest argument? Or is that a term to fling around when the argument can't be continued?
I replied to your assertions and questions without questioning your identity, but am accused of intellectual dishonesty. What's the problem?

posted 12-07-2002 12:24 AM            

quote:

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Paranoid, a deprecating remark? How else would one describe those who continue to insist that someone is out get them, yet they are never gotten?

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I don't seem to recall insisting anyone is 'out to get me'. You are correct sir, intellectualism has nothing to do with it.

You are being simply dishonest.

"The problem', from your stand-point, should be painfully obvious; despite four years of official (and supposedly un-official) denials you've got everyone from Ani Difranco to System of a Down to Merle Haggard filling the airwaves with songs about 'chemtrails' and 'spraying'.

These people reach more people in three minutes than you or I can in three years. And it's only a matter of time before someone sells a screenplay or scores a bestseller on this thing.

posted 12-07-2002 01:42 AM            

yep and it's a sad reflection and commentary on today's society that these folks who are qualified to discuss little more than their favorite drugs are pushing ideas which have no basis in fact...

then again nelly tells women it's hot in here and they should take their clothes off and I haven't seen any action there...

so maybe no one's listening....