posted 12-24-2002 07:33 AM            

How many places in Greece is this going on? Everywhere I go: three locations in Athens, and now here, they are operating directly overhead.

posted 12-24-2002 08:58 AM            

Even Alex Jones the radio commentator stated that the skies are very different than what they were from 5 years ago. On his Dec 22nd radio show he stated how contrails he used to see only persisited for less than an hour and now they last 6 to 8 hours or more and completely block out sections of the sky.

I have seen these "lingering contrails" and yes, I never saw these 5 years ago. Some debunkers say it's because of a "different fuel" JP-8? But I am highly suspicious of that. I have seen military aircraft fly after topping off with this fuel and they don't leave this "lingering" trail at all.I know it was JP-8 because I was told to set the specific gravity adjustments to JP-8 on the engines after fueling them.

posted 12-26-2002 01:42 AM            

Wayne Hall

Like many, if not all, I suppose, residents of Athens Greece I have in the last months at all times throughout the day (and also at night) noticed aircraft flying at high altitudes and discharging something which is denser and more long-lasting than the familiar condensation trails left behind by commercial passenger jets. The difference is easily perceptible by comparing these trails to what you see coming out of planes taking off or landing at the local airport. You can also see what part of the plane these denser emissions are coming from by visiting http://hamilton.indymedia.org:8081/front.php3?article_id=1132#mark2
and scrolling to the bottom.

I have noticed these emissions, and these trails, over central Athens, the northern and southern suburbs, Mount Pendeli and the Saronic Gulf. I would be very interested to find out in how many other parts of Greece they are being observed. The trails these planes leave behind often remain visible for a long time. They gradually disperse and become clouds which again do not look like the natural cumulus clouds we see at lower altitudes in the sky. Often on clear days a few hours of the these planes flying backwards and forwards is enough to spoil the whole apperance of the sky. Sometimes, too, they can suddenly give off increased amounts of emission, forming very dense white clouds with “tails” underneath. On 24th December 2002 at around two in the afternoon I saw a huge cloud of this kind over the town of Aigina. It was unlike anything I have ever seen before in my life, and it got me wondering what we would be breathing when the contents of that cloud got down to ground level.

By chance last summer I discovered that these emissions in the United States are popularly called “Chemtrails” and that anyone interested can learn quite a lot by just typing the word into a relevant Internet search engine such as Google.

One particularly good source of information is http://hamilton.indymedia.org:8081/front.php3?article_id=1793

There is now a discussion on the aerosol spraying over Athens at: http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001629.html

One of the first things I discovered is that the aircraft involved in this activity include military KC-135 and KC-10s. They are planes used as tankers by the United States Air Force. There have also been certain unmarked white jets participating in aerosol operations, and in fact I saw such an anonymous white plane flying at a low altitude over Pendeli on Saturday 22nd December 2002 at a time when spraying was in progress. It was not itself discharging white plumes and was possibly coming in to land.

This information on plane types is from the writer Toni Thayer and dates from 2001. At that time no governmental agency of any country would confirm that spraying activity was occurring. In mid- 2002 the countries in which eyewitnesses had reported seeing this type of aerosol spraying included the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Sweden, Italy, Croatia, Australia, Mexico, New Zealand and Haiti. As of late 2002 it is clear that the spraying is now also taking place in Greece.

What is its purpose? A book written by the investigative journalist Will Thomas called “Probing the Chemtrail Conundrum” puts forward three theories, only one of which: the least macabre, I will mention. It is indeed possible that more than one purpose is being served and more than one substance sprayed. According to the first of Will Thomas’s theories, the spraying is part of a strategy for countering the destructive effects of global warming.

Of the scientists carrying out computer simulations of the effects of aerosol spraying as a possible means of slowing global warming, Ken Caldeira of the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory shares the view of the ecological movement that curtailing of greenhouse gas emissions, as set out (very conservatively) in the Kyoto Protocol, would be “the most prudent and least risky option for mitigating global warming”. But the approach that seems to have prevailed has been that recommended by Edward Teller, “father of the H-bomb” (and of the Star Wars “missile defence” programme) in a 1997 paper entitled Global Warming and the Ice Ages: Prospects for Physics-based Modulation of Global Change. What Teller has advocated is a programme for spraying minute aluminium particles all over the planet so as to deflect the sun’s harmful ultraviolet rays but still allow the Earth’s heat to rise through them. Teller’s report emphasizes the negative economic implications of imposing limitations such as the Kyoto Protocol on fossil-fired energy production and notes how much cheaper it would be to lace the skies with light-scattering particles.

Teller has powerful supporters for this view. In 1994, apparently in the context of lobbying by petroleum companies for “solutions” to global warming that would allow continued burning of fossil fuels, a patent was issued to the Hughes Aircraft Company for “Stratospheric Welsbach seeding for reduction of global warming”. The patent describes how tiny particles of aluminium oxide and other reflective particles could be added to the fuel of jet airliners and emitted from the jet exhaust.

One does not need to be a medical expert to imagine the likely effects on human health of such a programme of emissions. In a 50 square mile area around Espanola, Ontario, where months of stratospheric seeding took place in 1998, residents experienced high rates of severe headaches, chronic joint pain, dizziness, sudden extreme fatigue, acute asthma attacks, feverless "flu-like" symptoms and loss of short term memory. Lab analyses of Espanola rainwater found reflective quartz particles and levels of aluminium five times higher than the maximum permissible levels under Ontario’s Health and Safety Standards.

Will Thomas’s second theory, which as stated I don’t propose to go into here, has to do with reasons for spraying the even more toxic heavy metal barium over large areas of the earth’s surface.

The effects of stratospheric seeding have now become very visible in the skies of the United States and, increasingly, outside the United States but, given the media blackout on “Chemtrails”-related information (apart from on Internet), the American public has not yet begun to react. Here is how one contributor to an American discussion forum sees the situation:

“Why is it that approximately 98-99 percent of the population does not notice something that is so obvious, so aggressive, so disturbing. Recently I put that question to a good friend of mine who works as a therapist in the mental health profession, and her response was basically the same as what I had been thinking. ..They DO notice them. They DO see them. The only difference between them and us is that they simply cannot acknowledge this whole state of affairs to themselves. It is simply too big, too scary, too unbelievable. So unfortunately, what is now happening is that most people in this country are walking around in a total and complete state of denial, and not acknowledging something that is right in front of them. I can’t think of any other reason why people can walk under a totally weird, science-fiction-like sky that looks like it has come out of some horror or strange fantasy movie, and come up to you and say “isn’t it a beautiful day?”

“However,” he continues, “I believe this strange state of affairs can’t continue like this indefinitely. Sooner or later people will have to acknowledge them (the chemtrails), and when they do, I’m convinced that "the shit is really going to hit the fan”, BIG TIME!!! I mean, how is the average American going to feel when he/she finally wakes up to the fact that the government they loved and trusted for so long is dumping toxic chemicals on us?”

A personal note, which is not really changing the subject: for the last eleven years I have believed that the international ecological movement and the Left had their historic moment of opportunity in 1991, at the time of the Communist coup against Gorbachev in the Soviet Union. The conditions that suddenly arose then gave us the golden opportunity to intervene dynamically, on our own terms, in the insane games that people like Edward Teller had been playing for forty years then and have now been playing for over fifty. Both main tendencies in the European Communist movement were taking wrong positions. Here in Greece we ecologists had our own representative in parliament in 1991 and it would have been possible for us to make our voice heard if certain arguments had been able to move more key minds on the Secretariat of the Ecologists-Alternatives and be heard beyond our parliamentary office. The logic of Teller’s trickery has always been the same. In 1991 both he and we could have demanded the abolition of the Soviet nuclear arsenal as we are now consenting to the abolition of Iraq’s. But instead of abolishing enemy nuclear arsenals, or even trying to, Teller promotes “anti-missile shields”. Similarly, instead of supporting reduced use of fossil fuels, he chooses to fill the entire earth’s atmosphere with light-refracting aluminium particles, at whatever cost in human deaths and environmental havoc. And in neither of the above cases is it even decisively important whether, on their own terms, his schemes will work. .
Just as a matter of interest, Ken Caldeira has warned that apart from producing adverse health effects in humans, stratospheric aerosol seeding could have an unknown devastating effect on the climate. Enhanced stratospheric cooling could accelerate the destruction of stratospheric ozone, which protects the earth from solar and cosmic radiation. The placing of aerosols in the atmosphere could also lead to reverse results of the earth being subjected to extremely rapid heating, potentially causing a run-away greenhouse effect.

It is still not too late for us to make a start: we in Greece can start by asking our government what purpose is being served by these increasingly frequent high altitude flights of jet planes over our heads with very dense and long lasting vapour trails. Better some questions now than mass hysteria in the future.

posted 12-26-2002 01:38 PM            

Most intriguing to me is the subject of the contents of chemtrails (barium salts, aluminium, etc)

A CTC member a while back posted some laboratory testing results from Cananda which showed higher than normal levels of aluminum in the sample.

I'd like to see more of these tests done.

When I was in high school, I worked part time in a remediation laboratory as a field sampler. Taking a sample is easy. All you need is a sanitized plastic or glass container if you want to test soil or water.

ANYONE can do this. Just bring the sample into a lab that test water and soil and ask them to run the sample for aluminum, barium etc. They will run it through spectroscopy and have the results back in a few days or less. If you are testing for bacteria...make sure you send the in sample within 24 hours for best results.

Food for thought folks.....

It's relatively cheap and you may be suprised at what you find.

posted 12-28-2002 03:48 AM            

J.P. of the Czech republic likewise says that he is going to publicize the issue in his community.

posted 01-30-2003 10:48 PM            

The archives of the sp forum are closed, so you will have to join to be able even to read, much less post. But I think it will be worthwhile for anyone committed to spreading awareness in Europe of the chemtrail problem (it is much less discussed here than in the U.S.) to make an investment of time and energy at the simultaneous policy forum. Any interventions made should try to be in the spirit of the group and its viewpoint, which in any case does inject a valuable element into analysis of many political problems. There would be nothing wrong with becoming a genuine supporter of the group's approach to politics. In fact it may even be preferable to become a genuine supporter rather than an "entrist". The simultaneous policy approach does need some supplementation, but there is nothing suspect or undesirable about it in itself.

Anyway, here is an example of the "Chemtrail"-related discussion that has been going on at simultaneous policy.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/simpol/message/4326

" in defence of Chemtrails and the posting, that one word has a allowed a
deeper level of research into water and WMD, it goes hand in hand with an
area of TOP Secret information and it highlights a major global issue that
is likely to raise its ugly head in the not too distant future, the
chemtrails issue goes hand in hand with the nuclear debate, ecology, water
and TNC and of course corrupt power.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 12:01 AM
Subject: Re: [simpol] The appeal of SP

> Mark Davey wrote:
>
> I like to research subjects I have never heard of before, like Chemtrails,
> which if the propsoal set out by Tim Knight is adhered to, we will not get
> this information, and if we cannot see with our own eyes, exactly what
Wayne
> has brought to our attention, just look out of your window!..then have we
> now been so brainwashed by the same feeling that anything new or too
> unbelieable is immediately classed as a conspiracy thorey. Two months ago,
> the oil conspiracy was a big joke, now it is mainstream.
>
> Tim Knight now writes:
>
> I am sure that we each have many and varied interests. However, I am sure
> you would agree that it is not very constructive for every forum to debate
> every issue.
>
> Most forums were created to provide a focus for those with a specific
common
> interest. I believe that there are a number of forums dedicated to
> 'chemtrails'.
>
> Surely, the whole idea is that you find and subscribe to forums which are
> focussed on issues which interest you, rather than trying to convert each
> forum to your whole range of interests. No-one minds a brief
> 'advertisement' for a potentially-related topic (e.g. chemtrails), but
let's
> not lose THIS forum's 'primary' focus on SP itself. In return, we will
all
> agree not to 'polute' the chemtrails forums with extended SP postings!
>
> Best wishes.
>
> Tim Knight

posted 02-02-2003 01:46 AM            

One of the most impressive features of Aguiton's address, and of the climate of the meeting generally, was the sense of a resumption of historical continuity that was strongly present.. This was something
new, welcome and an encouraging contrast to the directionlessness and confusion that became so familiar during the nineties..

Aguiton spoke of 1991 and of the belief widespread at that time that the collapse of the Soviet Union would shortly be followed by similar disintegrative tendencies within the Western bloc and the emergence of a polycentric world, with new power centres in Asia and Europe.

Through a gigantic exertion of political will in the United States, this outcome had been averted and the world that had emerged had been a world centred around the single superpower. But the foundations of the monocentric world order have already become unsteady.

Referring to the third meeting of the World Social Forum at Porto Alegre, Aguiton mentioned that the great changes from the second meeting did not only have to do with vast numerical expansion. There was in any case not greater participation from the countries of Southern Europe: the same numbers of Spaniards, Greeks and Italians
had been present at the third meeting as had been present at the second. Where the numerical explosion had taken place was in numbers from Northern Europe: from Britain, Germany, the Scandinavian countries, and also from Asia.

Another difference between Porto Alegre now and Porto Alegre a year ago is the present absence of political divisions. The second World Social Forum was thrown into confusion by 9/11 and the diametrically opposite interpretations it gave rise to within the movement. A year later these divisions no longer exist. Opposition to the threatened “Western” invasion of Iraq is solid, and virtually unanimous.

Pointing out that we are now only at the beginning of a grand upturn in popular struggles globally, Aguiton drew some interesting parallels with the movement of May 1968 in France. Just as that movement had been preceded by ferment at the elite level at the Ecole Normale Superieure in Paris, so the present movement has been foreshadowed by analogous phenomena at
Harvard University in the United States. And there are also some impressive differences from May 1968. The student rebellion of that
time was actively opposed by the trade unions and the organized working class in France. But the trade unions are now wholehearted participants in the movement against neo-liberal globalization, and
there are a number of reasons for this. One of them is the changes that have taken place in capitalist organizational forms in the
intervening thirty-five years. All of the world's social forums, whether at national, regional or global level, are based on the twin principles of networking and consensus. This reflects prior changes in methods of capitalist organization, away from pyramidal and hierarchical organization and towards horizontal and non-hierarchical
organization including extensive utilization of sub-contracting. Trade unions have found that their old hierarchical organizational
forms, developed for purposes of negotiation with analogous types of state organization, are no longer appropriate. They have been obliged to adopt the horizontal, networking organizational structures of the social forums.

The principle of consensus is a way of dealing with what would otherwise be a serious problem: that of the numerical disparities between small and large organizations, between different levels of
uneven sectoral distribution of organization. Devising a functional
system of representation and voting on such a basis poses huge problems: the principle of consensus does away with them at a stroke.

The Greek speaker chosen to follow Aguiton was the veteran activist Manolis Glezos, whose first political action in his youth in Nazi-occupied Athens had been to climb, along with a friend, at night and take down the Nazi flag. A proponent of direct democracy at the local level on his native island of Naxos, Glezos brought the plenary
session to a close with a story of an execution of Greek resistance fighters in Nazi-occupied Athens, and in particular of a twelve-year old boy, one of the forty facing execution, who had realized from the
angle of the barrel of the machine gun that was to execute them that the bullets would go over his head unless he stood on tiptoes. And so that was what he did. An act of solidarity.

It was an old-time message, but somehow did not seem out of place.

A footnote on chemtrails: the text entitled “Why the US Won’t Sign the Kyoto Protocol” was made available to some individuals participating in the Hellenic Social Forum inaugural meeting.

posted 02-09-2003 09:07 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by halva:
I saw a chemtrail plane over Athens today turning its sprayers on and off. Would very much like to see an explanation of this from debunkers claiming chemtrails to be contrails.

---

post a pic of the plane and the trails. Please.

posted 02-09-2003 11:35 AM            

Well, since you want to see an explaination so much, I will give you what you want. We have answered your little query dozens of times but you dont seem to actually ingest it. I'll explain again. The atmosphere is not uniform in its content. Some parts of the air are more humid, some are hotter, some are windier, it varies greatly from mile to mile. If a airliner flies through an air body that is perfect for contrails..*surprise*...it will create contrails. If it subsequently flies through an air mass that is not very good for creating contrails, then it will...can you guess? I know you can....not create contrails.

If the atmosphere at the altitude the aircraft it flying at has a lot of variations, the aircraft will make contrails some times, and at other times, will not.